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Tuesday, April 27, 2010
He had blonde hair and blue eyes you could lose yourself in for days… and other stereotypical crap.
A rant of sorts.
Bittersweet Causality (song)- Cold Driven (band)- Set in Stone (album) -- My new Kiki and Dex theme song.
“We made a killer out of you and a hostage out of me. I’m just a bittersweet causality. We brought the devil out of you and the sinner out of me. It’s not fair; but love is war. I can’t live this way. I’m living like a hostage. Don’t leave me. I’m too scared to say anything. But I can’t live this way.”
I read a lot of books where characters don’t actually work. You know, that thing that me and you do on a regular basis. Usually these characters are already wealthy from some endeavor before you’ve even cracked open the brand new spine of the first book. It’s usually a man- who owns half the town. Has more frienemies than actual family or friends. A new age tycoon of sorts. He’s gorgeous (of course) with a killer body, an ability to handle himself in a fight and has mass respect on the street. I don’t find anything wrong with this. In fact, if this man was real (ie: If Ranger (Evanovich- Plum series) was real and not a fictional character I’d like to tie to the bed and have my wicked way with) I would hunt him down and have to meet this real life stereotypical fictional hero. He finds heroine interesting because she’s a bumbling fumbling incompetent woman, or because she’s so sarcastic and cynical he finds it a challenge to be in her presence, and therefore decides he must have her.
I find it’s not often you run across a heroine in a novel who can handle herself and has money to run her life the way she wants to run it without man regularly around. The heroine who only invites a man into her life because she finds his friendship to be advantageous when she’s in the need of it. The heroine who devotes her life to being single and living a life outside of the box. Heroes have this life in almost every book I pick up. It’s always the hero who is closed off, who is unable to take the risk and have a relationship other than friends with benefits (FWB). And the heroine is always unwilling to take that step because they are dreaming about the life they want to have in the future and not living for the moment where they could have what they want.
Time for heroines to have the same advantages, if you ask me, we’re more equipped to deal with it. We’ve just been hardwired wrong from the beginning. We’re brainwashed by this stereotype. Women are way too detailed oriented for this to be going on. We’re organized. We’re cut throat and we’re straight to the point. I refuse to read another book about a weak heroine who needs a man to take care of her or the woman is constantly thinking about her chances of getting married with a white picket fence in her future.
No offense mama, but if you were tut-tuting me like Stephanie Plum’s mother does about her getting married and having babies, I’d blow you up in the next vehicle that came my way. Or the way Rachel (Harrison’s Hollows series) reminds herself that she’d like to settle down with a nice witch and have a famil y someday. It’s a nice dream, sure, but I don’t need reminders in novels. You don’t have to have that to have a full and rich life. It’s about the people your characters surround themselves with and who you surround yourself with in your life. That’s the richest part of the story. Life and all the great things that happen along the way. You have to take the heartache with the happiness. Growth is the essential element in all life, fictional and real.
Live for the moment and not for what will happen in the future. Here is where my “happy for now” (HFN) comes into play. I’m not a fan of the “happily ever after” (HEA) shit. I’m tired of reading it. Nothing rarely works out for the happily ever after. Marriage is work. Life is work. And it’s hard. It’s not one of those things where you slip a glass slipper on some bitches foot at the end and it all works out like magic. I’m pretty sure if Prince Charming knew Ms. Sleeping Beauty had a sleeping pill addiction and hid her pills under her feather mattress, not all would be happy in the “Charming” household. Or Snow White and her seven dwarves. I highly doubt any testosterone charged man would really just forget his wife spent time with seven dwarves. Sounds like he might find a nice little “surprise” on some pay by the second website featuring his wife as the star.
Fiction is fiction and enjoy it for what it is- yeah sure. I like fiction with challenge of life. If your character does something to disrupt the Karma flow, well I want to see the cause and effect. Kiki steals shit. Kiki gets caught, her ass kicked, blackmailed and ditched. If you keep doing the dance with Karma, I totally expect the next effect of Karma to be showing you exactly what happens when you disrespect the cosmic flow of life. And Kiki gets hers. Just like any other character in a fictional novel.
For once I want to see a strong heroine kick some ass on her own. I’m not even managing it in my own series. Dex is just getting in the way. Just like any other asshole male on the face of the planet. He’s not capable to realizing she can handle this on her own. If I didn’t have designs for him in future novels, I’d take his ass out via acid pit, or exploding vehicle, sniper fire, flame thrower, fitted for concrete shoes and pitched into the Missouri River. I mean, I can come up with all sorts of ways I’d enjoy getting rid of him *clearing throat* I mean, all the ways Kiki would enjoy getting rid of Dex. But I can’t. I’m caught in my own web of stereotypical writing behavior.
So I want to hear what you think is stereotypical behavior in heroines and heroes. What do you read about most often and what just really irks you about the novels you read? And what stereotypical behaviors do you enjoy in novels but never see?
Bittersweet Causality (song)- Cold Driven (band)- Set in Stone (album) -- My new Kiki and Dex theme song.
“We made a killer out of you and a hostage out of me. I’m just a bittersweet causality. We brought the devil out of you and the sinner out of me. It’s not fair; but love is war. I can’t live this way. I’m living like a hostage. Don’t leave me. I’m too scared to say anything. But I can’t live this way.”
I read a lot of books where characters don’t actually work. You know, that thing that me and you do on a regular basis. Usually these characters are already wealthy from some endeavor before you’ve even cracked open the brand new spine of the first book. It’s usually a man- who owns half the town. Has more frienemies than actual family or friends. A new age tycoon of sorts. He’s gorgeous (of course) with a killer body, an ability to handle himself in a fight and has mass respect on the street. I don’t find anything wrong with this. In fact, if this man was real (ie: If Ranger (Evanovich- Plum series) was real and not a fictional character I’d like to tie to the bed and have my wicked way with) I would hunt him down and have to meet this real life stereotypical fictional hero. He finds heroine interesting because she’s a bumbling fumbling incompetent woman, or because she’s so sarcastic and cynical he finds it a challenge to be in her presence, and therefore decides he must have her.
I find it’s not often you run across a heroine in a novel who can handle herself and has money to run her life the way she wants to run it without man regularly around. The heroine who only invites a man into her life because she finds his friendship to be advantageous when she’s in the need of it. The heroine who devotes her life to being single and living a life outside of the box. Heroes have this life in almost every book I pick up. It’s always the hero who is closed off, who is unable to take the risk and have a relationship other than friends with benefits (FWB). And the heroine is always unwilling to take that step because they are dreaming about the life they want to have in the future and not living for the moment where they could have what they want.
Time for heroines to have the same advantages, if you ask me, we’re more equipped to deal with it. We’ve just been hardwired wrong from the beginning. We’re brainwashed by this stereotype. Women are way too detailed oriented for this to be going on. We’re organized. We’re cut throat and we’re straight to the point. I refuse to read another book about a weak heroine who needs a man to take care of her or the woman is constantly thinking about her chances of getting married with a white picket fence in her future.
No offense mama, but if you were tut-tuting me like Stephanie Plum’s mother does about her getting married and having babies, I’d blow you up in the next vehicle that came my way. Or the way Rachel (Harrison’s Hollows series) reminds herself that she’d like to settle down with a nice witch and have a famil y someday. It’s a nice dream, sure, but I don’t need reminders in novels. You don’t have to have that to have a full and rich life. It’s about the people your characters surround themselves with and who you surround yourself with in your life. That’s the richest part of the story. Life and all the great things that happen along the way. You have to take the heartache with the happiness. Growth is the essential element in all life, fictional and real.
Live for the moment and not for what will happen in the future. Here is where my “happy for now” (HFN) comes into play. I’m not a fan of the “happily ever after” (HEA) shit. I’m tired of reading it. Nothing rarely works out for the happily ever after. Marriage is work. Life is work. And it’s hard. It’s not one of those things where you slip a glass slipper on some bitches foot at the end and it all works out like magic. I’m pretty sure if Prince Charming knew Ms. Sleeping Beauty had a sleeping pill addiction and hid her pills under her feather mattress, not all would be happy in the “Charming” household. Or Snow White and her seven dwarves. I highly doubt any testosterone charged man would really just forget his wife spent time with seven dwarves. Sounds like he might find a nice little “surprise” on some pay by the second website featuring his wife as the star.
Fiction is fiction and enjoy it for what it is- yeah sure. I like fiction with challenge of life. If your character does something to disrupt the Karma flow, well I want to see the cause and effect. Kiki steals shit. Kiki gets caught, her ass kicked, blackmailed and ditched. If you keep doing the dance with Karma, I totally expect the next effect of Karma to be showing you exactly what happens when you disrespect the cosmic flow of life. And Kiki gets hers. Just like any other character in a fictional novel.
For once I want to see a strong heroine kick some ass on her own. I’m not even managing it in my own series. Dex is just getting in the way. Just like any other asshole male on the face of the planet. He’s not capable to realizing she can handle this on her own. If I didn’t have designs for him in future novels, I’d take his ass out via acid pit, or exploding vehicle, sniper fire, flame thrower, fitted for concrete shoes and pitched into the Missouri River. I mean, I can come up with all sorts of ways I’d enjoy getting rid of him *clearing throat* I mean, all the ways Kiki would enjoy getting rid of Dex. But I can’t. I’m caught in my own web of stereotypical writing behavior.
So I want to hear what you think is stereotypical behavior in heroines and heroes. What do you read about most often and what just really irks you about the novels you read? And what stereotypical behaviors do you enjoy in novels but never see?
Labels:
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Quartermaster's Queries (Sin),
Sin,
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141 comments:
Preaching to the choir, Sinsister. I agree totally. In my urban fantasy, the guy is there and he's the one who wants the settle down stuff. It's not even on her radar. Now, she's not particularly well-adjusted and all, but still...it's a start.
Same with my kraken story and the widow, Emily. That part of her life is over and she's starting over. New job, new way of life...then the pirate happens. But no white picket fences and new babies in her future, don't worry.
Here's one I was just messing with on Monday.
Heroes in historicals being the sexual aggressor. I'm in the middle of writing my first love scene for this book and I decided my heroine's going to be the one who starts the lovin'.
So far... LOTS of fun. :)
Great post, Sin!
I read something unusual the other day that had me smiling from ear to ear.
Usually the hero/heroine picks a fight, saying nasty things to push the other away either to protect them or because they are too scared to deal with what is happening between the two of them. In Red's Hot Honky-Tonk Bar, by Pamela Morsi, the heroine does this several times and the hero just doesn't bite. He sticks with her and calls her on it every time. I LOVED it!
Another sweet surprise in this book was that that particular conflict did not go on and on and on and on until the last 2 pages of the book. I HATE that! There is nothing worse than seeing the H/H fight for 285 pages, on page 286 they realize they love each other and page 287 is the end.
I finally started reading Miranda Neville's THE WILD MARQUIS (which I should have done much sooner - so good!) and love the fact that the hero is not always the tallest man in the room. In fact, she makes it clear, he's not even six feet tall. Now, the heroine is a pocket pixie at 5'1", so she still has to look up at him, which is nice. But Cain is a fantastic character without falling into any of the historical hero stereotypes.
Oh! And if the guy IS a fry cook in a novel, the authors always CHEAT and it turns out he's a BILLIONAIRE who is disenchanted with his life and wants the simple life so he became a fry cook. WTFE.
The MAN is always capable, stoic, quiet and broody, seductive if he's roguish, but not really a talker.
The WOMAN is always getting into trouble (but not really all that capable of getting back out of it without the man), chatty, bubbly, incapable of shutting up. Seductive, but in that sweetness and light sort of way; always the Angel of the House.
A MAN will never be the Martha Stewart of the home. That's the woman's place. In real life, apparently, as well in fiction. And if in fiction, a man is in the kitchen, fixing supper for the woman coming home, it's ALWAYS he's a billionaire so he doesn't need to work as many hours and he's not emasculated by the domestic chores.
I think that's the stereotype that annoys me: a MAN in fiction has to be powerful in the stereotypical ways or your reader won't respect him or admire him. He either needs to have MONEY, POWER (stereotypical power), or STATUS. A postal worker or a fry cook will never be Prince Charming...no one wants to marry those guys.
There is nothing worse than seeing the H/H fight for 285 pages, on page 286 they realize they love each other and page 287 is the end.
Irish has pegged my #1 stereotype that irks me. Thankfully, I think romances have, for the most part, evolved beyond this.
To be honest, I always think I'd like to write a true kick ass heroine, but when I've tried it's only "temporary" until she gets her white picket fence and babies. I mean, I hope that in the end she's not totally selling out her feminist ideals but the character change is that she wasn't really happy with kick ass.
I've done the reverse, where the sort of "white picket fence" was already in place and then she becomes more kick ass by the end. But the book is ending there; I don't think I'd know what to do with her after she changes.
The problem is I have no idea how to write kick ass long term. LOL Gotta cut this short...I probably make no sense! :)
Well wasn't I in a fine little ranting snit on Saturday when I wrote this. lol
I like usual characters in novels. I think why I loved Villers so much (Eloisa James) was because he was so unusual and unique as a hero. Eloisa always manages to write in some unique characteristics to her heroes.
I suppose Morelli (Stephanie Plum) is an unusual hero. He's a cop. He's not broke but he doesn't own half the town either. But he's supposedly *eye roll* hot in every sense of the word. But Stephanie is the usual bumbling incompetent woman in a contemporary setting. So this cancels that out.
Chanceroo, I knew you'd have plenty to say. :)
Yum, fry cooking....
I think I have a conquer and destroy complex.
I like the reverse kick ass. You have everything and then you go all kick ass and leave all that behind. That seems more bad ass to me. Like, "You know what, I know I can have that but let's see what else I can conquer."
Marn! I love it. I love when the woman is the aggressor. We're not all meek and tittering nervous creatures. Girls need to have more of the "eye of the tiger" look and go for what they want instead of waiting for it to fall in their lap.
I have to say, Irish, that I have the tendency to have the H/H fight constantly. I just haven't figured out how to let them have a relationship without still fighting like cats and dogs. I think I almost prefer them to fight than to fight, realize they are in love and by the next page getting married.
Re: the fry cook. Lucy March is writing a book where the heroine works in a diner and is in love with the cook. Just sayin'...
I have to say I am greatly relieved that the H/H fighting stopped in my book around the mid-point. Whew! Avoided that pet peeve.
Ordinary people falling in love. Isn't that what life is about? I mean, yeah, it's fiction, but I don't need the fictional dream of a billionaire plucking my small town girl off the street and falling in love with her. I don't need him to pretend to be a barn hand, or a fry cook, welder, mechanic to win her affection and then surprise her with a fairy tale ending.
I'm going to write a book where both the H/H work in retail and make minimum wage. Though, I suppose it will have to be funny to get over the pathetic-ness of how broke they are.
The only time I thought Morelli was sexy was when he basically pinned her to the bed and had sex with her the first time--which says a lot more about me and my fantasies, I suppose, than Morelli's actual characterization of "sexy".
After that, he was a cheetos eating couch bum who constantly harped that Stephanie's place was in the kitchen, even though she doesn't know how to cook. Ugh.
That pinning to the bed and ruining her for all other men characteristic was immediately given to Ranger in the subsequent books. And HE has not turned into a couch bum. Hence why we still like him.
I just got the best idea.
If Mattycakes wasn't such an ass about my writing I'd ask him to co-author it with me. But my goal is to smash him into the ground with my writing awesomeness so I will have to manage on my own and rely on my own comedic talents.
Wait a minute, so Janet writes a guy that turns into a real guy - the couch bum - and that's not good. But you're ranting about writing the stereotype guy who is always perfect? LOL! You've got to see the irony there.
And my heroine totally wants the house. She doesn't mention and fence and technically, she doesn't want the "husband and home", but she wants a home pretty bad. Mostly because I want one really bad and have for as long as I can remember. LOL!
I think you can be not rich, powerful (ruthless) or major status--and also NOT be a couch bum. I think there is a middle ground NOT being explored because I think the unwritten rule is "readers can't understand subtly so write as extreme as possible".
And if Morelli was being remotely sexy while eating his damned cheetos, I might have let it go, but he started acting like a roommate and not a boyfriend and annoyed me to death. If a woman started doing that in a novel, a man would freak the hell out. "OMG, she's wearing SWEATS! She's let herself go! She'll blow up as big as a house!"
“OMG, she’s wearing SWEATS! She’s let herself go! She’ll blow up as big as a house!”
Gah, isn't that the truth.
I prefer ruthless male characters in novels. I also prefer the heroines to be that way as well. Makes the whole novel experience more interesting. I just want to see who can be more ruthless.
And I just prefer Ranger. Non-ponytail Ranger. Of course. Wearing jeans and a t-shirt and a gun and a half grin.
Good point. The rich thing bothers the hell out of me. My hero made the majors in baseball, so he's not poor. But it didn't get to play for long before blowing out his knee and he was no Derek Jeeter, so he's not set for life. I make it clear he doesn't have to pinch pennies in remodeling his house, but he also plans on working for a living.
All Kiki's money is tied up with the government and the money that isn't is tied up with Dex. So Kiki's got issues but it's not bad. She works two jobs for a living. Neither are really legit though. So here's the other question. How does everyone feel about characters who are morally gray? I was going to talk about that today, but I went on a rant instead.
Well, I'm all about intentions. You can operate in some pretty gray circles and still be a good person. The line between right and wrong is never totally clear, IRL or in fiction. If a character did something to intentionally hurt someone they knew didn't deserve it, I'd have a hard time with it.
So, in my diplomatic way, I'm saying it depends. :)
And now I'm having flashbacks to when my ex would bitch that I was wearing knit pants. Really? You're wearing fucking camo from head to toe. Do you really think we're going to have this conversation?
LOL WTF. Knit pants? WTF is that? Is that like khakis? Or are you talking about the grandma elastic pants that come in pastel colors, because if you're talking about those, I will have to agree.
And I so should not laugh at that. Not at all, but I did. I'm sorry.
Morning, pirates. Everyone's quite feisty today!
Not sure what I have to add yet -- my heroines tend to be the ones who don't want to/can't commit, so they don't dream of home and hearth. My characters also banter and tease rather than argue or disagree. So I am not writing the "norm".
Still. . .I like the fantasy in romance. I think the billionaire thing or the heroine wanting the house -- those are stand-ins for other things, like security, and stability, and things that seem to be harder to find on a daily basis in real life.
Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. (Props to Dennis Miller -- LOL)
And wtf am I in comments.
Hell, I forgot Hellie.
I like fantasy too Donna. I'm not going to say that I don't enjoy the HEA (the stability, the security) the billionaire that makes it all happen. What I get sick of is when I feel like it's a fictional rut where all fiction is like that.
This was at the end of the 90s so it was the elastic waist knit pants. But in black. Only in black. I was a new mom! Not a lot of time to get gussied up with a tiny human demanding all your attention. LOL!
Back me up on this, Marn!
Donna - I'm with you, there is a fantasy aspect to it. Or that's what I'm told. The rich hero is almost mandatory in Romance. Can't tell you how many times I've been told my stuff will never sell because the characters aren't *powerful* enough. Though, it can be the heroine who is the powerful one, but that's rare.
I miss Dennis' old show on HBO.
I think I've scared everyone off today with my feminist ranting. lol
And Jenny Crusie will always be my hero for so many reasons, but predominately because her characters are REGULAR people. We need more Crusies.
Hellie, we could co-author a book where the roles are revered and in our world, men are the stereotypical SAH parent and wear dress shoes and dress clothes while doing the dishes and the kids enjoy a family oriented game in the living room. Because all households are like that. *snorting*
Don't worry about me. I'm happily bitching out both ends about various things.
I've read one Crusie book and enjoyed her hero and heroine. Very regular people. Very hilarious. And a lot like life.
Hellie, we could co-author a book where the roles are revered and in our world, men are the stereotypical SAH parent and wear dress shoes and dress clothes while doing the dishes and the kids enjoy a family oriented game in the living room. Because all households are like that. *snorting*
*snorts* And when the woman came home, the men would talk in soothing tones and never mention the stress of their day because it wouldn't compare to the STRESS of the woman's job, which is the only job that matters.
Yes, yes, I like this story.
Yes, Jennifer Crusie's H/H's are always regular people (some a little nuttier than others) but never billionaires or CEOs. Regular people. But they're interesting people and people with "power" and you care about. (They don't have power in cliched ways; but clearly they have power and are able to run their own lives and do what they want...you have a stake in them and care about the results.)
LMAO. This book would be so sarcastic and cynical, it would drip from the pages before you even crack it open.
*clapping* And there would be a Househusbands Handbook that the men would be asked to read, and it was always about looking their best for their wives, never taking on manipulating or sulking tones when talking to their wives, and always, always be understanding if your wife doesn't do you the same courtesy. After all, the wife undoubtedly just had a difficult day and you should be understanding.
Isn't there a "Women's Porn" calendar that does those things? LOL I remember seeing it at the bookstore -- the guys are half-dressed, saying sexy things like, "Let me do the dishes". LOL
I've been debating whether to I should use a pseudonym, and one reason I don't think I will is so my books will be next to Jennifer Crusie -- LOL -- for those people who have read all her books. (Oh, and the fact that it takes me at least four tries to SPELL pseudonym correctly.)
the guys are half-dressed, saying sexy things like, “Let me do the dishes”.
LMAO!!!! That's freaking hilarious
I pretty much write the stereotypical law enforcement heroes, I think. They're not rich (as they're cops, and really, what cop is rolling in it? Though I have read WAY too many stories about the billionaire who couldn't stand his family's sinister ways and so bucked the system by becoming a cop and was, of course, the sole heir to the billion-dollar fortune . . . )
But I digress. They are the "strong, silent type" And of course, they're exceptional in bed, because well, it is fiction *g*
When thinking about my pseudonym for the unlikely day I will be unleashed onto the fictional audience, I thought about how lazy I am and how far I'm likely to walk in the library to look for a book. I never make it past the "R"s so I decided I should probably not go past the last name starting with an R. LOL
I think there is a middle ground NOT being explored because I think the unwritten rule is “readers can’t understand subtly so write as extreme as possible”.
I think you hit the nail on the head with this one. It is why in some cases alphas are controlling jerks, betas are wimpy, virgins are wide-eyed innocents, and strong heroines are bitches, etc. etc.
I like all of those stereotypes but when they are 3 dimensional and twisted a little to give a little more depth. I love an alpha who needs to be in control, but is sensitve to those around him. A beta who is quiet but has strong convictions and even stronger values/morals. A virgin who knows what she wants and what she won't settle for. A strong woman who can learn to be vulnerable with the right partner. And maybe back story that explains why they are the way they are. Understanding in a lot of cases leads to caring about that character.
I think there is also room for fighting (conflict). Heck, I pick at, banter and fight with my DH regularly. I guess, IMHO, when it comes to writing that in a book, underlying trust and commitment has to be conveyed throughout the story or you just have two dysfunctional people going at each other and that are no fun to watch.
I suppose the ones that do it right show that commitment growing and the other ones just show the conflict (and lots of sex).
Well, I enjoy that IRL as well, but I need a roll of duct tape to make him shut up.
And if I'm going to write sex with a fictional man, it has to be a man I fictionally enjoy.
Hal, I'm the same way. I write the strong silent types. Can't help myself. It's the type of man I enjoy.
They are the “strong, silent type” And of course, they’re exceptional in bed, because well, it is fiction *g*
I think Hal brings up a great point - I suppose they are stereotypes because that's what people want to read. I'm all for the "great in bed" stereotype. Although, it would be pretty hilarious to read about someone who wasn't (at least at first)!
And Ter, I meant to comment on Miranda's book earlier, but I somehow got lost. Go figure. I've got a TBR pile that fills up my office at home. Miranda's book is near the top. I have no idea how to go about reading a TBR pile. I want to read them all at the same time but I know I can't make my mind focus enough to do that.
LMAO. You mean write about the bumbling fumbling actual sex that we've all had one time or another? I agree. That would be hilarious. I'd die over a line like this, "What do you mean you've got your t-shirt caught in my bra hook?!"
Or, "You know my leg doesn't bend that way. I'm in yoga but that isn't going to work."
Or, "Um, that's it? Oh. Okay."
*laughing hysterically*
they’re cops, and really, what cop is rolling in it?
The corrupt ones. Don't you watch Law & Order?
"That's it?" definitely needs to be inserted into a sex scene soon. THAT would be fun!
Actually I can see that in a Regency...historical...where they've wigged out the poor virgin with stories about bleeding to death and pain so unbearable you can't comprehend...and right there, right as he deflowers her, she can go, "Oh, is that it? I thought it was going to be much worse than that, I can barely feel you at all."
I was just wondering -- have your romance-reading tastes changed over the years, as you've experienced life, seen what it's really like, as oppposed to what you'd hoped it would be?
When I was younger, I LOVED star-crossed romantic tales, and loved to cry about the hopeless lovers who couldn't find their way to each other.
Now? Not so much.
I think I'm more realistic about real-life relationships now, but still hopeful about romantic ones. And I think my reading choices reflect that as well. Am I the only one?
Those are hilarious, Sin!
"Maybe it will be better next time!"
"I'm sorry. No one told me women liked that."
"It's just not gonna work this way. Can we try something different?"
Yes, Donna, VERY MUCH SO, and in the ways you exactly described. Used to love the angst, drama, and cryfests of star-crossed lovers and now I go, "What a bunch of dingleberries. Get. A. Grip."
Me too, Donna! Same thing. Probably why the Big Misunderstanding doesn't work as well for me now as it did then. Now I just think - okay they need some serious counseling to work on their communication issues.
I've always been strictly a historical romance or paranormal reader until about 4 years ago and my MIL handed me a Stephanie Plum novel. Then I was introduced into another fiction genre I semi-enjoy. In the whole suspense genre I only read Tara Janzen and Janet Evanovich. But I tend to like the "mistress only" stories the most. But like you, when I was just starting out with romance I loved the star crossed, our families will never allow us to be together type of love stories. Now, I can't read one without wanting to throw up.
Or, "I think the condom fell off."
Or, "Can I have a do-over?"
Or, "It usually doesn't happen like that. Are you sure all your parts are functional?"
Or, falling off the bed mid-sex.
When you are young, especially a teenager, you can understand the whole star crossed lovers or keeping secrets thing. Also when you're young, you do actually have a lot more obstacles to overcome. There very well may be teens who are not allowed to date someone inappropriate - it sort of speaks to their circumstances. I think as you get older and control your own destiny a lot of those obstacles are removed and you forget how hard it was to assert yourself and do what "you" wanted and not what all the adults expected of you.
Or, "Sorry for the yawn. I guess I'm just really tired tonight from doing all the housework after I got home from eight hours at the job and picking up the kids at daycare. You go ahead without me, okay?"
I have seen the "oops, that was over way before it should have been" one. I think SEP had that one in Natural Born Charmer.
Or, “Sorry for the yawn. I guess I’m just really tired tonight from doing all the housework after I got home from eight hours at the job and picking up the kids at daycare. You go ahead without me, okay?”
That one definitely has RL written all over it! LOL
Irish -- I think you described it perfectly! As you get older you have more coping skills, as well as the realization you're going to be USING those skills, so your expectations change.
I read a book the other day that I almost didn't finish, even though I'm glad I did. The heroine ties up her ex in bed, so she can get pregnant, even though they divorced because he all of a sudden didn't want kids. Later, he reveals WHY he didn't want kids, and it made perfect sense to me. The heroine understood his reasons -- so the only reason they didn't figure this out before they got divorced was to have a conflict for this book. Gah!
Sin - THE WILD MARQUIS is worth pulling out of the pile. Within the first page or two, the dialogue will have you hooked. I love Miranda's voice and this hero is too cool for school.
I guess I'm in the "older and tougher to please" club too. I have a really hard time believing in some character motivations because I don't think what the author has presented as reasons are good enough. My problem is, I'm a fixer. If I can think of any plausible options around the issue, then the heroine should be able to think of those options too.
This is in no way the fault of the author, it's all my hang up. But when I was younger, I never questioned this kind of thing.
...so the only reason they didn’t figure this out before they got divorced was to have a conflict for this book. Gah!
My point exactly. That kind of infuriates me now. And in the hands of a good writer it can work. I just haven't figured out how yet. LOL My opinion is that most people are pretty screwed up to begin with and that creates the conflict. The trick is showing how they can come out the other side. Two messed up people accepting each other's flaws and insecurities and compromising their way to a HEA.
I just read about True Vows books on NINC. It's a new series that uses real-life romances and they're written by well-known romance authors. They launch this fall. So maybe it's kinda like what is being discussed today -- more real, less stereotype?
www.truevowsbooks.com
I have seen the “oops, that was over way before it should have been” one. I think SEP had that one in Natural Born Charmer.
YES!! And it was over WAY fast, as in came-in-his-jeans fast! And then for the next few days, she kept humming the theme to Speed Racer every time she saw him. LMAO!!
This is in no way the fault of the author, it’s all my hang up. But when I was younger, I never questioned this kind of thing.
It's the whole suspending belief thing. Some authors excel at this and some haven't gotten the hang of it yet. I think about the conflicts in some of the SEP books or in Bet Me by Crusie. Most of them are issues of trust and characters perceptions of who they are and what other's think of them. In all of the stories where it works for me I have a real feel for what these characters are feeling and thinking so even actions that seem over the top are totally believable to me. Because I am experiencing it through the damaged/hurt/vulnerable eyes of the character. sorry... I'm rambling
The heroine ties up her ex in bed, so she can get pregnant, even though they divorced because he all of a sudden didn’t want kids.
No, no, no, no. That's not romantic. You might as well have dropped a rufie in his drink. WTF. If he doesn't want to have kids, period, what are you gangbanging him? He's still responsible for kids--and you've...GAH...that set up just infuriates me. How can you get a remotely HEA out of that? Tying him to the bed and making him impregnate you would violate ALL TRUST.
Clearly I missed what the fantasy was in that novel.
Two messed up people accepting each other’s flaws and insecurities and compromising their way to a HEA.
Irish - THAT's the kind of romance I want to read. Though I do still sometimes adore the star crossed lovers. Like the end of The Watchman (Robert Crais, a Joe Pike novel) where he leaves and it's just heart-wrenching.
"...she kept humming the theme to Speed Racer every time she saw him. LMAO!!
LMFAO hahahaha Okay, maybe I will have to eventually read that book.
That was a good book, Sin. You gotta read it. The funny thing is, I wasn't too thrilled with it the first go around. And now I've re-read it a couple of times and I really love it.
Irish, not rambling. ITA. In a fiction novel, you have to believe and feel what the characters are going through to make the story work.
I will mention though while the Twilight books are WAY over the top in angst, when Bella throws herself off the cliff in New Moon I felt suspended in the air with her and felt the cold water rush over me when she hit. I'm one of those readers I have to read it and feel it or I can't continue to read it. No matter how good the story is or characters. I have to have emotion, no matter if your character is emotionally dead or not, there is something there to be written and expressed.
Irish - You hit it exactly. In the SEP and especially the Crusie books, you don't feel like you're reading a story. You feel like you're watching these peoples' lives unfold. These are real people in real situations and we're watching them make choices and suffer the consequences.
Those are the kinds of stories I want to write. The real stuff. Which unfortunately, isn't all that popular. LOL!
I know, if we want real, we can talk to the people we really live with. I get it.
Hellion, she actually DID drug his drink, and the only reason I kept reading was because I couldn't figure out how she was going to make it work. For one thing, this doesn't really make you sympathize with the heroine! And it also felt like another way to have sex happen earlier in the book.
I surprisingly liked the rest of the book -- not sure why now. Because it definitely got off to a rocky start.
Irish -- you're not rambling at all. Again, it's a perfect description of why I like SEP and Crusie's books and characters.
I need to get outta here -- all my daily wordcount is ending up HERE instead of in my WIP. LOL
Great discussion though. I'm really enjoying it.
Those are the kinds of stories I want to write. The real stuff. Which unfortunately, isn’t all that popular. LOL!
Right. Jenny and SEP are SOOOOO unpopular.
Which unfortunately, isn’t all that popular. LOL!
SEP and Crusie are extremely popular as you will be when you get published!!!!!
Ah, to be in their league. A girl can dream.
You can sell this kind of story today only if you have the clout to back it up. Clout they have in spades. Me, not so much.
But I don't care. I adore this story and will fight to the death for it. Though I hope it doesn't come to that.
Donna - You can totally count these comments. They're words and you wrote them, they count.
Yeah, what Irish said!
We need Irish to write another blog for the ship. She's been all on it today...
Dur - We need Irish to do some reviews for us. She could be the resident reviewer.
I second a new Irish blog!
Ooh, I like that. We need a resident reviewer. *LOL* Irish, you want to be our resident reviewer?
Think of it as doing a Pirate Fellowship. LOL!
Oh, that should be a drink.
Yay! Love that idea! Say you will Irish!
LOL -- a Pirate Fellowship.
Irish will be the Inaugural Pirate Fellowship uh, thingie. I vote for that!
Why do I feel like I need to say, "One ring to rule them all." ? LOL
Ooh, we could give her a title like Pirate Book Reviewer Laurette (or however you spell it for the poet version.) PBR Laurette for short. She could have a PBR beer as her logo!
Not that we'll NEED to do this, BUT. . .
Irish, what kinds of bribes do you prefer? You know, for when my books are finally published. :)
Oooh, with her face photoshopped onto the PBR logo as her very own brand!
(Nice to gangbang on Irish, isn't it? Maybe we should drop a rufie in her drink and tie her to a bed.)
I don't know who wrote it (a girl, I guess, and hilarious), but I love it...and if we're going to talk about LOTR (at all), it needs to be mentioned:
Now, I'm not one of those aficionados who knows every intricacy of Tolkien or has memorized every book, grocery list and letter to Santa he ever wrote. I'm just an average moviegoer, but I know a metaphor when I see one, or make one up. LOTR may be disguised as a sexless geek-boy epic, but this trilogy is more riddled with dating tips than an issue of Seventeen magazine:
• When you're trying to catch the cute guy's eye is the exact moment the dwarf will pick to approach you;
• Eating raw fish is no longer a sign of a sophisticated date. (That said, you have to admit the Atkins plan is working for Gollum.)
• if you're the only girl among 100 guys you'll still fall for the only one who has a girlfriend;
• When overused, terms of endearment such as "precious" lose their meaning;
• All couples fight, but battles shouldn't last so long that one of you has to get up and stretch your legs or use the bathroom;
• It doesn't matter if you look like Liv Tyler; your pining and whining will still get on people's nerves;
• Don't blame your friends just because they can see right through your creepy little partner;
• If you can get along on a road trip, the relationship will probably last;
• There will come a point when it seems like the relationship should be over. Don't drag it out. Just end it there.
And finally, the mother of all dating wisdom:
• Some people will go to any lengths to get a ring; others, having had one for awhile, will go to any lengths to chuck it into a volcano.
We all know I'm down for an Irish gangbang.
*LOL*
LMFAO. I'm thinking that should include car bombs (drink and cake variation).
"Some people will go to any lengths to get a ring; others, having had one for awhile, will go to any lengths to chuck it into a volcano."
Shit. LMFAO. That should've come with a warning. I think I just ruined my keyboard.
When I read PBR, I thought Professional Bull Riders. LOL! You can tell y'all live in a beer state. LOL!
I relate way too closely with this one...
if you’re the only girl among 100 guys you’ll still fall for the only one who has a girlfriend
And when Irish hops back in here, she's going to hyperventilate. LOL!
An Irish Gangbang must go on the menu. A little Baileys, a little rum, a little waiver...
Came across this post via Twitter. I totally agree that kiss-ass, take charge female heroines are mis- and under-represented in contemporary fiction. I think it's a reflection of old-school societal norms of women "settling down" and having kids. Blech! (Just last week my female doctor said to me, and I quote, 'You're 34 now sweetie. You should start thinking about having children.') I mean, wtf?
I'm trying to buck the trend with my own novel-in-progrees: novelist's husband leaves her because she refuses to have kids, and to get over the heartache she says "eff it" and travels to Jerusalem. Of course, while there she meets a sexy Israeli professor but she doesn't fall into bed with him, and in fact doesn't even end up with him. She goes home alone and stays that way.
Awesome discussion!
Sheesh, step away to take a phone call and all hell breaks loose!!!
LMAO on the LOTR review! The first thing I asked DH when he wanted to take me to the movie was "is there a romance in it". He gives me that look he always gives when he's trying to get me to do something he knows I won't like (happens a lot!) and says "sure there is!"
Well, cheese on a cracker... I do not have time to read 98 comments, darn it! After my Lori Perkins pitch, in 30 minutes...
Got a request from Heather at Tor for The Kraken's Mirror!
Wait?... What did Terrio say? Irish Gangbang? Are they like rum runners? Oh, no Baileys...well, I'm always up for Baileys!
I promise, will catch up later!
OH! Christie Craig says hi to the pirates!
Well, you guys made my day cause I've been having a hard time with the day job lately (mommy blues). So seeing that ya think I've got some insight into something is promising!
I'll think on the blog/review thingy. Could be fun!
Chance, yay on the request.
And Irish -- yeah, that's why you don't want to step away for even a minute. Sh*t happens.
*tiptoes backwards until no one notices I've disappeared*
*whispers to the crew* If Irish asks if the position pays, say, "Sure it does!"
Chance - Pitch your little heart out, woman! Huzzah for the request and here's to many more.
I feel like I did when I missed a parent meeting when my daughter was in kindergarten and got nominated for Halloween Party Mom!
Is she comparing us to a bunch of five year olds?
*pauses*
Okay, that might not be far off.
Is she comparing us to a bunch of five year olds?
If she is, I definitely feel like I've progressed! LOL
And Chance, my keyboard keeps sticking, so it didn't include my exclamation mark! So I'll do this again: YAY on the request!!!!! There, that oughta do it. :)
Forgot to say YAY! to Chance on the request. That's awesome. Congrats.
After reading the reviews for Nora's Savor the Moment over at Amazon.com I'm thinking maybe some clear heads are needed somewhere on the net!
Did you see what is happening? I was just browsing some of the books that came out yesterday to check up on the reviews and saw her book had only 3 stars. I go to investigate why the low marks and find comment after comment ... All the Kindle users are giving her book 1 star because it is not available for their Kindle.
Wahoo on the request! Told you she would be interested in Kraken's Mirror - did you meet up and do the drink buying thing?
Ok - I don't expect them now, but I want full details after RT!
Irish -- I had read recently about the K*ndle folks doing that, and I'm not sure why they feel that will accomplish what they want. Why hurt the author for something they don't have control over?
Hey, did you see this?
http://www.avonromance.com/2010/04/avon-invites-you-to-be-the-writer/
The prompt is about a washed up baseball player and a former nerd who is now the principal -- sounds like a good story, doesn't it? :)
Must you torture me???? I saw that this morning and wanted to shoot someone. Preferably, whoever picked that damn prompt.
That's right, Donna, stir up the Bo'sun. *LOL*
I don't know why readers don't understand lowballing authors because it's not produced in the format they want is not a good idea. But then again, so few readers understand the business of publishing. (Hell, so few authors understand the business of publishing...)
It's not meant to be torture! It's an opportunity! Go put a comment in there -- then they'll read it and say, "Hmmm, she's got an awesome take on this story. We need to see the rest!"
Seriously.
I don't MEAN to be a stirrer. Mmmm. Guess it's another sign I should be working on my WIP.
Come now, Donna, that's why we picked you for the ship. You're a stirrer!
Don't get yer panties in a bunch, I'm fine. It's just that now all those writers are going to think, "That must be what they want so I'll write it!" And then mine will be one of a thousand that are all the same.
And yes, I realize thinking my story is totally unique is extremely dillusional. LOL! But I liked my blissful ignorance!
Dang, Hellie -- I thought I was a shaker, not a stirrer! LOL
And Bo'sun -- personally I think this is a blessing. If I were in your boots right now, I'd go over there and post the bit you posted here the other day. It's already written, it's absolutely delightful, AND it gives you a chance to shine with something YOU already came up with first.
Didn't I read a blog post yesterday about someone's debut, an author who started out writing snippets on another blog. . . :)
*sets up plank to walk on before anyone else does*
That was short flash fiction on a bulletin board for fun. LOL! Nope, keeping my stuff to myself. But I've read the entries so far and I'm not impressed.
*crosses arms and pouts*
Besides, the winner only gets a book or something. This isn't how Avon is seeking out new talent. LOL!
Chance - congrats on the request!!!! Good luck with your second pitch - I'm sure you did awesome :)
CONGRATS on the request Chanceroo!! So exciting.
Ter, go over there and show them what it's all about. Dude, you could own.
Yay!!
Forgot to mention, Chance sent me a text that she got a request from Samhain for the Kraken story. Whoot! Two down so far. Not sure how her other appointment went yet.
That is awesome! Go Chance Go!
I'm not your run of the mill, street-walking writer giving this stuff away for free. All I need is someone to read my comment and go, "That's pretty good. I think I'll write that."
LOL!
LOL, I can agree with that Ter. All we have to do is think of the opposite way to write it so someone can go in the opposite direction of you. Can't be that hard. I mean, how many writers are here right now. We've got to have SOME idea. I mean, Hells and I are going to write a Stepford Husbands guide. We've got ideas.
Release the Kraken!!!
Sorry. I've really been wanting to say that. :)
Bo'sun, I totally understand what you're saying -- I feel the same way about having my writing out there. So I apologize if it sounded like I wasn't aware of that aspect. Because I am, and I'm probably more paranoid than most.
Isn't that on a Clash of the Titans commercial? LOL Donna's got her whip out cracking it for the Kraken.
It's funny, Donna, I'm not usually paranoid. I think Hellie is rubbing off on me. :) But my stomach dropped when I saw that this morning. Hellie and I are waiting to see if the next one is "Adam & Eve are in marriage counciling...go!" We'll know they have hacked into our email then. Or at least follow this blog. LOL!
That Clash of the Titans commercial kills me. Just because Liam is so over the top when he yells that line.
You can shake whatever you want, Donna, but I liked you because you were a Ship Stirrer (oh, I'm so punny, I crack myself up!)
Bo'sun? You're not giving it away for free? That's not what it says about you in the bar in Norfolk! (I probably shouldn't have written that when I was there...)
The Stepford Husbands Guide to a Happy Marriage...Gosh, I can see that in print now, can't you?
A Ship Stirrer. Ha! I just got that. LOL!
That bar is now CLOSED. So har de har har...
Do what feels right, Ter.
I've come across scenes that I've written (not word for word but the idea was the same) in a few books I've read over the past couple of years and you want to scream "hey, that's my idea!" One was from a Lisa Kleypas book but I'm gonna be gracious and bow out of that fight!! LOL
Every time I complain about it the DH just looks at me shaking his head and says "You snooze you lose, baby!" Absolutely no sympathy from him.
So get it written and out there before the rest!
Bo’sun? You’re not giving it away for free? That’s not what it says about you in the bar in Norfolk! (I probably shouldn’t have written that when I was there…)
ROTFLMAO!!!
Bo’sun? You’re not giving it away for free? That’s not what it says about you in the bar in Norfolk! (I probably shouldn’t have written that when I was there…)
Uh oh. You guys are writing fanfic in bars? Oh boy. :)
Bo’sun? You’re not giving it away for free? That’s not what it says about you in the bar in Norfolk! (I probably shouldn’t have written that when I was there…)
Uh oh. You guys are writing fanfac in bars? Oh boy. :)
Oops -- a typo AND a double post! Sorry!
Sorry guys -- don't know what happened there!
A ship stirrer and a double clicker. You're a wiley one, Donna.
Irish - Don't encourage her. Please.
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