The best of the RWR wenches, take 1!
So this week, since the wenches will be sneaking off and on ship to spend time with those land-lubber relatives rich enough to bribe us into coming on shore. And since we know our trusty readers have their own crazy obligations over the next few weeks, we decided to use this time to re-post some of our favorite blogs.
Each day, one of the wenches will re-post one of their favorite blogs, either one they wrote or one someone else wrote. It's a "best-of-the-wenches", if you will, for your holiday enjoyment.
Since I'm one of the newest members of the crew, I decided to post a blog which Terri first posted December 10th, 2007. Not only is it a blog that keeps a great question in our minds while writing, but it's the first blog that drew me out of lurkdom to comment. I'd followed Sin here before that blistery December morning when my mouse edged closer and closer to the "comment" button. But that day, Terri touched something in my writer's heart that made me respond.
This particular blog wasn't the first one I read on RWR. It won't be the last, and it may not even be the one I can recall thirty years from now when reminiscing about the Pirate ship at some futuristic Natioanls conference. But it's the one closest to my heart, because it was my first step in entering this community that's given me back so much in only two short years:
Pre-conceived Notions of a Writing Pirate
I’ve always thought of myself as open minded. I realize this is rather open minded of me considering the source but stay with me. I’ve lived in a few different regions of the U.S. and have been an avid reader since childhood. I would think this gives me some insight to other people, cultures, experiences. But maybe it doesn’t. Maybe my pre-conceived notions cloud all of this to the point that I interpret it through a narrow lens.
The expansion of my virtual life and my voyages upon this pirate ship have brought me friends from all over the world. I’m not one to think everyone should agree with me or that everyone should think alike but I’m finding there are schools of thought I don’t understand at all. And as much as it must frustrate my friends to try to explain their views to me, it frustrates me that they don’t see things the way I do. It’s perfectly clear to me! LOL!
So, is it safe to assume we (yes, I’m including all of you now) carry these pre-conceived notions into our writing. If there is something we absolutely would never do, can we write a character who does? One of my own quirks is that I never want to hurt anyone’s feelings but often you have to make your heroine or hero say something to the other that not only hurts their feelings but breaks their heart. That is going to be so hard for me.
If I write a character raised with no religious or faith based foundation as I was, can I write that character without bringing my perceptions into it? For a topical example, could I, a Catholic woman raised in the United States, write the story of an Arab woman raised in Palestine? Or a woman living in 19th century England for that matter?
I’m finding this fascinating as one of my greatest struggles is to create independent, well-rounded characters and then keep their choices and behaviors consistent with who they are. I rarely base my characters on anyone I know and definitely not on myself so how can I make them real and understand the way they think?
How do you get into your characters’ heads and do you find it difficult to separate your own experiences and perceptions from theirs? Do your characters ever do anything you find morally or fundamentally wrong? If you’re a reader, does it bother you to read characters who do things you find horribly wrong?
Books by the Crew
53 comments:
Hmmm! Great blog! This be before me time. But I can tinker wit' answerin' the question. Because I am vast, I contain multitudes... Now, though I doubt I could write the experiences of an Arab woman in Palestine without a great deal a research, somethin' I ain't terrible inclined toward... I can write characters that do things I wouldn't do.
'Cause somewhere, in me multifaceted soul, I bet I could do it. Includin' hurtin' someone on purpose, bein' petty, all a' that. I can imagine most a' anythin'...
Even a happily ever after.
Though I admit, I shudder when readin' a' cruelty ta animals. I've killed the dog. But never done truely dastardly deeds ta one. Not sure I could write that...or ta any animal...
I must be terrible twisted, I've written a' terrible things done ta children...planned and relished over how wonderfully dastardly I were bein'... But not ta animals. (The kids always get away or recover, or are rescued. Or get revenge. Bwah ha ha!)
You know, Chance, I've never tried being cruel to an animal. I've never understood why, but it seems way worse than hurting an adult. Kids and animals, especially dogs, just aren't fair play.
Although, I have a book plotted out that I haven't really worked on, where the heroine has been really traumatized in the past, and has used a therapy dog and now has a dog and this super tight attachment. And I think the bad guy in that book either kills or hurts the dog. God, that will suck to write :)
I agree though, that somewhere in all of us is the capacity to do *just about* anything, even things that go against our morality or ethics in real life.
Such a good one! I do find it difficult to separate my own perceptions and experiences from my characters but I'm finding it easier to do so now that I've really hashed out who my characters are. I was flying by the seat of my pants in terms of character development but as I have mapped out their personalities I find myself in them less and less which is good.
Hal, I don't know how you'll write that scene! I don't know if I could do it!!!
I wrote this? Are you sure? When we talked about posting favorite blogs, I never thought one of mine would make the cut. LOL!
But this is interesting since I recently had to make a choice about my old WIP. In order to make it work, because I'd basically pitted the H/H against each other instead of giving them a common enemy to fight against, I needed to make the heroine into a person I wouldn't like. And I couldn't do it.
So I guess that sort of answers my own question. I could write a character who jumps out of airplanes or eats crickets (two things I will NEVER do), but creating a person I wouldn't like and would never want to be is not an option. A secondary character, maybe. But not a hero or heroine.
And now I'm hoping Renee stops by since her current work kind of falls into this question. :) I'd love to hear her take on it.
Forgot to say, I'm so glad I lured you out of lurkdom! The ship would not be the same without you!
Well, Hal... the scenes I've read where the dog died that haunted me are the ones that dwelled on details. So, if'n it comes ta it, it may seem like cheatin', but do it offscreen as much as possible. Ya can really haul out everythin' when it comes ta how yer heroine reacts, but ease up on the sufferin' a' the dog...
Because that were one author I never read again... I still can see that "scene" in me head and it ain't pleasant.
I remember this blog! Gosh, I can't believe you wrote this one two years ago, Ter. It doesn't feel like that long ago, and in other ways, forever.
Since we've had this discussion before and about how our characters hold a little piece of ourselves in each one, I'd be lying if I said it was easy to separate myself from my first person POV. The first person becomes you, involves you, sometimes suffocates but brings out the very best emotional you. And while emotionally I dislike having to read about cruelty to animals or children, abuse, neglect, and other things, I seem to be able to write it incredibly emotionally detached from it.
Yeah! What a great blog to start the Auld Lang Syne with...or whatever we're calling this.
I *HATE* when characters don't act like they're supposed to. And I hate when authors play the "she's innocent, but worldly" which gives her the leeway to make her a historical virgin, but give her a modern-day thought about sex, attacking the hero and having sex just after finding out his name. Which I always find amazing because historical misses were raised in practical obscurity, with massive guilt, and no birth control...so even if they did know of women who had sex outside of marriage, they knew them as women who SHAMED their families and were banished to the country and never heard of again. It's like the duke thing. I can see a handful of such misses feeling like a little Sex Chaser, but I can't imagine ALL of them acting this way.
Which is why I at least prefer the marriage of convenience. At least when they're having sex, it makes sense.
Sorry, that rant is over. For today.
How I get into characters? Method Actor/Writing. I try to channel myself into the character.
(Being usually the dog killers are the villians of the book, I don't really worry about my characters that do morally repellant things. They're secondary.) I don't like when my primary characters do repellent things, like SAY horrible things to the hero or heroine, the things they know with damage the psyche most, in order for the "greater good" for that character. You know to push them away. Maybe I've been on both ends of words too often, but you can't take them back...and they're impossible to forget. They're almost impossible to forgive. OH, and if they do it in front of an audience....my God....
What a great idea to pick the best of RWR! There are so many that I've missed - I lurked going back about a year before commenting several months ago. And then, I know!, some days you couldn't shut me up. :)
This one of pre-conceived notions is very thought provoking (I can see why it would be the one to draw you out of lurkdom!) and timely...or is that timeless? It's like one of the biggest personal writing challenges there is.
I've been thinking about this for justifying betrayal against the hero or heroine by the other. It's weird to reconcile when personal, real life notions of "I wouldn't do that or want that to be done to me" start to make sense for the character. But once you think about it (in one of those ah ha! plot moments), the betrayal seems to be the only course. Nothing else seems as interesting as the conflict.
Some books I wouldn't even want to read if someone just described the plot to me. My pre conceived notions would kick in and I wouldn't give it a chance. But I'd miss out on some great books if I didn't overcome that tendency. Like the dog scene...you've set yourself a challenge, and it's the handling of it that will make it great. :) I really like Chance's comment Ya can really haul out everythin’ when it comes ta how yer heroine reacts, but ease up on the sufferin’ a’ the dog….
Ter, yep, you wrote this! It's been a while :) There's been a lot going on since then.
creating a person I wouldn’t like and would never want to be is not an option. That's a very good distinction. We all fuck up now and then, and our characters do too. But we love them anyway. Making an un-likeable character is something different from a flawed character, I think. If I love a character, my heart breaks over some of the choices they make. If I don't like them, I'm significantly less likely to give them the benefit of the doubt.
So what are you doing with your characters instead? Changing the conflict?
Stephanie - I know exactly what you mean! I usually don't know my characters really well until about half way through the book. Man, it'd be so much easier if I could do it the other way around!
That's interesting that the more you know them, the less you see yourself. I hadn't ever thought of it like that, but you're totally right. You see more differences than similarities. It's like a set of identical twins I was good friends with. Took me years to be able to tell them apart. But once I really, really got to know both guys, they were so different to me in both looks and personalities, that I couldn't fathom anymore how they could possibly be mixed up.
Ter, I'm glad you lured me out of lurkdom too. My writing days would not be the same without this ship!
2nd...in other words, don't spend five pages on the horrific yowling of a wounded animal?
Eeek, man. I've already freaked myself out. You're right, no details. Nooooooooo details.
Hellie - I know. It's annoying as hell. I have a friend who writes erotic regencies, so her heroines are always extremely knowledgeable, which in principle drives me up a wall. She's come up with all this historical evidence that Victorian ladies weren't nearly as repressed as we think, and that married women shared what they knew with unmarried women all the time. I still don't buy it. And frankly, I don't care if you can prove it. It still goes against everything readers understand about the Victorian period. I can't suspend disbelief.
And frankly, suspending disbelief is a writer's most important job. Without that, nothing about the story comes alive. It could be awesome prose or characters, but if you can't get into a story, nothing else matters.
Okay, maybe not "the most important" job, but it's way up there.
Melissa,
I'm extremely happy that you joined the ship! It's so important to have a community of writers around you.
Nothing else seems as interesting as the conflict. I think that's the sign that you picked the right conflict. And you're right, what counts as betrayal is different for every person and every character. For me, I see a big difference been fidelity in a sexual sense and loyalty overall. You can be sexually faithful to someone, but still not be loyal. But then again, I haven't been cheated on, and I"m pretty sure that distinction would change *really, really* fast. And loyalty means something different to everyone.
But when you know you've picked the most interesting conflict for that character, you're definitely on the right track! That's what they need to go through in order to become the person that gets the happy ending. Maybe it's personal strength or trust in herself or trust in her husband - whatever it is that she needs to learn before the end, a conflict with betrayal will get her there!
That was "for a writer those two things are all we need." Ugh!
suspending disbelief is a writer’s most important job..
If I love a character, my heart breaks over some of the choices they make.
I think if a writer those two things are all we need. :) Now about the how to do that... LOL
And you’re right, what counts as betrayal is different for every person and every character.
I'm not sure I said that, but I meant that. Thanks! LOL
I'd swear an hour ago I checked and all these comments weren't here. LOL!
Re: my WIP - I just put it aside. Changing it meant starting over and after two years, if I was starting from scratch it was going to be on something new. What it boiled down to is that I was going to have to make the heroine's mission be to work at making the hero fail. I couldn't like a person who actually wanted, never mind worked toward, a person failing.
I'm sure a really good writer could create that situation and redeem her in the end. Heck, if you've ever read Ain't She Sweet by SEP, you know this can be done. That's the best example I can think of where an author redeemed a character who had done some really awful, selfish things. But I adore that book.
I think your blog about your heroine being a smoker stems a bit from this topic. Because it's a social taboo, you questioned whether it would work. But the reality is, thousands of people still smoke every day. I have co-workers that smoke. It's a reality and when you add in her lifestyle and life experience, it makes perfect sense. Once you take perceptions out of it, you're good. :)
LOL Melissa. You're right - if a writer can suspend disbelief long enough to make a reader fall in love with a character, than not much else matters.
Hellie - You remember not long ago when we were talking about your WIP and I suggested you put them in a casino playing some games or the slots? Remember your reaction? That's more what I meant here. LOL!
About the historical miss being all sex smart and out there, I think there are assumptions that writing a heroine who knows nothing about sex means writing an unintelligent heroine. Which is not the case. A woman can be quite intelligent, but she's not going to know something if she's never exposed to it. Or if she's been taught it's an extremely sensitive topic which she has no business discussing until absolutely necessary.
Sexual knowledge and regular knowledge are not the same thing. A heroine living two or three hundred years ago (or more) was not stupid because sex was a mystery to her. I can believe, after introduce to the act, if the person introducing her does it right, that she would then be enthusiastic about it. But the enthusiastic virgin is where I have the belief problem.
Virgins that aren't nervous give me a belief problem. I don't care how much you love and trust him, if you've never stripped down in front of a man and stood still with no idea what's going to happen next, I'm sorry, but you WILL be nervous! It might be excited nervous, but she'll still be nervous. And if she's not, then I can't buy in
Are you working on something new? Exciting and new??
SEP is one of my favorites, but I haven't read Aiin't She Sweet?. Something about the first chapter turned me off, and I never went back to it. I think it was her name. I can't remember what her name is now, but I distinctly remember shoving it back on the shelf at the library and thinking, "I'm not reading a whole book about someone named...."
There you go - pre-conceived notions! I missed a great book. I need to stock up for the week at my in-laws. I should grab that one.
Her name is Sugar Beth and it's well worth getting past any name issue. She's a tough character to like when the book opens, but SEP pulls her through beautifully. That book is also a great example of using a secondary character POV with precision. There are several connections in that book and she tied them together beautifully through one young girl.
I was going to have to make the heroine’s mission be to work at making the hero fail. I couldn’t like a person who actually wanted, never mind worked toward, a person failing.
Oh! But it does sound like an interesting conflict...just sayin. :) I could see if it was an external motivation that she's really guilty about (lots of internal conflict)...but there I go talking about someone's WIP out of context! I could see starting something new if the changes were too much though. But it's interesting the book wasn't put aside from lack of conflict...
Sugar Beth! That's it.
I'll definitely have to give it another try. I'd like to see how she handles both things - the early unlikeable character, and the secondary character. Excellent research!
Yeah, a person who works for the goal of someone else failing is really, really hard to respect. She'd have to be doing it for a *very* good reasons (like her children have been kidnapped and are being held for ransom somewhere :) )
Through Jenny Crusie's blog I learned last week that there are two different ways to handle the protag/antag issue in a romance. Pit the H/H against each other making one the antag and the other the protag (which according to JC is the hard way), or give them a common antag to battle against (the easy way).
Without even knowing it, I tried to write my first WIP using the hard way. I clearly wasn't ready for the challenge, and it helped me feel better about why I couldn't make the book work. Also without knowing, I set up this new book the easy way, and man is it easier. LOL!
Hal - The new one has the English teacher and the baseball coach who are basically competing for funding dollars. Books vs. Bats sort of. Turns out the principle is really the antag and they will eventually team up to fight against him. Doesn't dissolve all their issues, but sure makes it easier to write.
But there be many reasons one might work toward another person's failure. Yer character might be convinced success fer "B" would have bad consequences that "B" ain't seein'... Or "A" might have damned good reasons fer needin' "B" ta fail...as in if "B" succeeds, "A" fails. And "A" has kids dependin' on success, full bowls of kitty chow, house payments...
It be the how one goes about it. But the redemption a' both "A" and "B" is the point a' the story...
I honestly think I contain too many people! I can see and justify most things me characters do, good and bad. Perspective be the key. Ya sell the perspective, ya sell the conflict.
As I sees it, we write fiction. In real life, conflict is seldom easy or one sided. And seldom be resolved in one story arc!
I always loved how "The Princess Bride" ended. The book, where Goldman inserted how things fell into more complication once they escaped the castle!
Nothin' ever ends.
I have a problem writin' HEA, obviously.
Ter, that makes total sense that this one is going to be easier. A common enemy not only allows them to be nice to each other, but it pulls them together as well, and keeps them together in spite of just about anything. I like it a lot!
Chancey - I agree completely. I love books where things aren't tied up in a neat little bow, but all sorts of complications are still hanging over their head.
In the book I just finished, the H/H got their happy ending, but the trade off is that they're now fugitives, and will remain so forever. They can't go back home, they have a six year old with major trauma, they lost a partner....all sorts of issues that will come back up in the next book. So it's a happy ending, but it's not on a silver platter. They'll still have to fight for it.
Chance - I'm not saying it can't or shouldn't be done. Many do it and do it well. It was just a conflict in me that I didn't want to write it. Doesn't mean I won't ever go back and try to make that story work. It would be a shame for Bryan and Celi to never get their HEA because I'm a hack. LOL!
Hal - They sort of form a truce to work against the principle, but the animosity between both sides still exists and the closer they get, the more she's seen as fraternizing with the enemy. Throw in family issues, her believing he's everything she doesn't want, and plain old fear, and it's an interesting mix. Fingers crossed it comes out as something close to what's in my head.
Yeah, Hal... I think I write episodic fiction. (If I have the word right. Which if I don't, I know Hel will correct me.) I just have a real issue wit' writing 'the end'. I want ta know what happens next!
It's like "The End" is pullin' the plug. In me head, nothin' ever ends...it just moves on ta the next challenge.
Like life!
Ter - Ya'll go back and write it when ya can feel the conflict wit'out common sense steppin' inta the picture. Yer common sense says "This isn't a real conflict because people with sense (healthy self-worth, morals, open eyes...) would figure it out..."
Ah! But we seldom have sense (or the rest of it). Any of us, let alone our characters!
But I get what ya mean, Bo'sun.
Okay, here's the deal. Celi would have to really want Bryan's new restaurant to fail. There could have been any of a number of reasons, and I'm sure some of them good. I know that would be an awesome conflict and very real. *I* just couldn't bring myself to write a character like that. Maybe it's karma or my Pollyanna nature, I just hated the whole idea. LOL!
Maybe I'll get more cynical in a few years and I'll be able to do it. But I hope not! (About the cynical part.)
Well, it isn't personal. She doesn't want his place to fail because she hates him...it's her job on the line. (Might be easier if she hated him...) But yeah, you don't want to write her so needy and dependent on a job that she'd really want to see someone else fail that way.
Because you want to like her. I liked her, as prickly as she was...
Sigh. It's my want to know what happens nature...
Now you reminded me of a line from You've Got Mail. He (Hanks) puts her little shop out of business and tells her it's nothing personal. To which she points out there's no such thing as not personal. It just means it wasn't personal to him. But it was very personal to her.
In this case, it would be creating a character who makes choices with the intent of causing misery and damage to another character. Intent is everything to me. I couldn't like her if that was her intent.
Someday I'll figure it out and let you know what happens. :)
Too true. I think that's where the perspective a' the writer dances that fine line... It's all personal ta someone!
I look forward ta seein' how ya eventually untangle this knot!
Terri, I hope you get back to this story too! So either she has to be a character who starts out not so nice and is redeemed or she has start out with good intentions? It was her job that was more important than good intentions and that's what was unlikable? Sounds like she's in the wrong line of work to begin with! LOL I don't know why she'd have to work at a job she didn't like the choices, but I think I'd fall in love with a character stuck in a job that she's rotten at because she is too kind hearted. She could get in all kinds of trouble before she got fired. Maybe she's the boss's daughter. :)
Oh, sort of off topic, but did you see the link is from the blog posting The Official Kissing Day Blogfest? Lots of kissing scenes to read! :)
http://sherrindak.blogspot.com/2009/12/post-your-link-for-official-kissing-day.html
OMG...you have to see the Bones and Booth Kiss Behind the Scenes YouTube clip posted under the #1 Sherrinda blog link...it's so cute! :)
Wow. I'd never heard of the kissing day blog fest or the Mr. Linky stuff. Learned something new!
About why Celi need Bryan to fail, there were several options I threw around, but just the idea was enough to make me not want to think about it. Sad, isn't it? One option was that she has the little diner around the corner. Another was that her best friend tried to get the restaurant and Bryan outbid her, so they worked together to make sure he didn't survive. I can't remember what number three was, but I couldn't resolve any of them in my mind.
I do like the idea of her having to be in a job she's no good at. I'll keep that note somewhere for later. Either way, it required changing lots of details about the characters and I was too close to them to chop them up and change them around. With some time and distance, it should get easier.
Just a thought, she has to keep the job because of insurance issues? ;)
Melissa - I am YouTube stupid... Could you post the direct link? I could use a good kissin' clip...
I think this is it - Bones and Booth Kissing Behind the Scenes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLMJtmFfxf8
I loved that episode, but I can't get the video to load up and keep going. I'll try it at home. LOVE those two.
Chance - Not sure I want to go there. Right now, I gotta figure out the one I dove into before I can brainstorm that one. LOL! Y'all are killing me!
Melissa - Thanks! That was sweet!
Well, Ter...if'n ya want ta give her a heart problem, PTSD and insurance worries, I'm yer expert!
I adored that clip. I love those two. And whew! What a kiss!
Ter - she could always need the job in order to pay medical bills or tuition bills for a close family member. Or a sibling with a gambling problem - she doesn't want Bryan to fail, but it's either Bryan fail or {insert disaster to family member here] and she figures she'll feel less guilty if it's Bryan. Until she gets to know him better of course, and falls in love, and realizes she can't live with that outcome either.
Ter - Hope yer keepin' a list. We gave ya lots a' ideas!
Making an un-likeable character is something different from a flawed character, I think. If I love a character, my heart breaks over some of the choices they make. If I don’t like them, I’m significantly less likely to give them the benefit of the doubt.
This was a very good blog and one I can relate too totally. I'm the type of person who doesn't like to create conflict and that doesn't bode well for a good romance. I want everyone, including me, to love my H/H and so have a very hard time giving them unlovable traits. But what Hal said is so insightful. We are all flawed (jump to the wrong conclusions), but we are not all evil (torturing small creatures).
This was a very, very good blog, Ter... even 2 years later!
You remember not long ago when we were talking about your WIP and I suggested you put them in a casino playing some games or the slots? Remember your reaction? That’s more what I meant here. LOL!
Actually, no, Bo'sun, you're not the only one with a mind like a sieve. What was my reaction?
Chance - Luckily, the notes will be here when I come back to look for them. Now I just have to remember where to find them.
Irish - That was me when I first started writing. NO CONFLICT. And it's still hard. I'm tough when pushed, but I don't want to create the drama. I've had enough drama to last a lifetime.
Hellie - You flipped out on me that you hate gambling, thought it was assinine and could never write a scene with anyone gambling. Which is very much like me not being able to write a character with the wrong intentions. We are what we are and maybe that's one of the toughest things as a writer, trying not to be.
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