Favorite Enemies
- A Little Sisterly Advice
- Cheeky Reads
- DRD aka Donna's Blog
- Gunner Marnee's Blog
- J.K. Coi: Living with Immortals
- Just Janga
- Killer Fiction
- Kimberly Killion
- Maggie Robinson
- Maureen O. Betita
- Megan Kelly
- Pam Clare
- Renee Lynn Scott
- Romance Bandits
- Romance Dish
- Scapegoat's Blogspot
- Smartass Romance
- Terri Osburn Writes Romance
- Tessa Dare
- Vauxhall Vixens
Blog Archive
Powered by Blogger.
Thursday, October 7, 2010
What about the older books...
So I'm taking a class this semester on the mystery genre. We have a list of required reading, and we have to discuss, analyze, and write about these books. Some of them are awesome. We read one with a 1st person narrator who I swear was a dead ringer for Jim on The Glades. Anybody watching that show? His sarcasm and total refusal to play by any rules cracks me up. Plus, he's in love with a woman he can't have, and the romance writer in me just goes "Ahhhhhhhh."
Next week, we're reading Hard Eight, one of the Stephanie Plum mysteries (woo hoo! I'm now I'm not the only one of this blog who could re-read that book a bajillion times and never get tired of it. Of course, the guys in the class are already complaining about being forced to read it).
This week, though, we had to read a mystery I hated. It's old, it was published in 1985, and I mean, everything about this story was 1985. The society itself that these characters were living in almost became an important secondary character. Not only was it set in 1985, but it was set inside the NYPD, in a time when women were legally allowed to hold those jobs, but were generally dismissed by the male majority.
To really top it off, the subject of the book was rape. One main character was a female sex-crimes prosecutor, one main character was a woman who had been raped, and the final main character was the victim's husband, who was also an NYPD chief and having an affair with said prosecutor.
There were a myriad of reasons I hated this book (to the point that I'm absolutely refusing to read another page of it, required or not), but it made me think about the role of society, and especially how it affects the role of women.
Romance has had to do this too -- what was socially acceptable for women or romance in 1985 is hardly even recognizable in 2010. No author today, while writing about the aftermath of a woman's violent rape, would have a doctor-character say something as absurd as (to her husband) "Don't worry about her. Women are remarkably resilient about these types of things. I should have spent more time with you than her. It's harder on men."
Seriously. Reason number #72 I refuse to read any further. 200 pages of that crap was enough. Yeah, dude, it's soooooo much harder for men. Jerk.
But even romance has gone through it's own change in how we deal with women, how we deal with women sharing both careers and families, and how we deal with the fundamental power imbalance between women and men.
Clearly, this particular (male) author never got the memo about women being equal individuals to men. But the romance authors get it (probably because we're mostly female), and our writing encompasses both where we've come from as women and where we still might go.
So, what's your take? Are there romance authors who were tackling these hard subjects back in the 80's? Are there authors who stick out to you, who can take a subject as disturbing as rape and handle in a way that doesn't portray every woman as a victim? Do you avoid books with this topic altogether? Do you find the way writer's from the 80's handled this subject to be fundamentally different from the way we handle the topic today? Do we excuse these types of misogynistic views that we now consider wrong, wrong, wrong! just because it was written in the 80's?
Next week, we're reading Hard Eight, one of the Stephanie Plum mysteries (woo hoo! I'm now I'm not the only one of this blog who could re-read that book a bajillion times and never get tired of it. Of course, the guys in the class are already complaining about being forced to read it).
This week, though, we had to read a mystery I hated. It's old, it was published in 1985, and I mean, everything about this story was 1985. The society itself that these characters were living in almost became an important secondary character. Not only was it set in 1985, but it was set inside the NYPD, in a time when women were legally allowed to hold those jobs, but were generally dismissed by the male majority.
To really top it off, the subject of the book was rape. One main character was a female sex-crimes prosecutor, one main character was a woman who had been raped, and the final main character was the victim's husband, who was also an NYPD chief and having an affair with said prosecutor.
There were a myriad of reasons I hated this book (to the point that I'm absolutely refusing to read another page of it, required or not), but it made me think about the role of society, and especially how it affects the role of women.
Romance has had to do this too -- what was socially acceptable for women or romance in 1985 is hardly even recognizable in 2010. No author today, while writing about the aftermath of a woman's violent rape, would have a doctor-character say something as absurd as (to her husband) "Don't worry about her. Women are remarkably resilient about these types of things. I should have spent more time with you than her. It's harder on men."
Seriously. Reason number #72 I refuse to read any further. 200 pages of that crap was enough. Yeah, dude, it's soooooo much harder for men. Jerk.
But even romance has gone through it's own change in how we deal with women, how we deal with women sharing both careers and families, and how we deal with the fundamental power imbalance between women and men.
Clearly, this particular (male) author never got the memo about women being equal individuals to men. But the romance authors get it (probably because we're mostly female), and our writing encompasses both where we've come from as women and where we still might go.
So, what's your take? Are there romance authors who were tackling these hard subjects back in the 80's? Are there authors who stick out to you, who can take a subject as disturbing as rape and handle in a way that doesn't portray every woman as a victim? Do you avoid books with this topic altogether? Do you find the way writer's from the 80's handled this subject to be fundamentally different from the way we handle the topic today? Do we excuse these types of misogynistic views that we now consider wrong, wrong, wrong! just because it was written in the 80's?
Labels:
Coxswain's Commentary (Hal)
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
Books by the Crew
85 comments:
Now I'm trying to remember books from the 80s and I think I'm going to need another cup of coffee. I remember early in my reading of romance, finding a book where the heroine was raped maybe seven times by chapter 2. Even as a young teen, I knew I was not going to read another word of that book. If memory serves, it was probably pubbed very late 70s, or 1980.
Many of the Historicals I read in the 80s were set in the American South or the Wild West. And in those days, every woman had to face potential abuse of this nature as a possibility. So, if the author included it, then they were really sticking with the reality of the times. So it made sense. I remember most handling it pretty well.
Doesn't mean I'd want to read those today though.
Hal, this is a great topic -- I'm flying out the door so I can't give a good response, but I'll definitely be thinking about it for when I get back this afternoon.
Now that I'm older, I have a harder time with certain topics, even when they're handled well. So I'm likely to avoid books that I know will have these kinds of things as a central part of the book. It's why I can't watch or read horror or things with serial killers. When I was an attorney, writing reference books for judges, I had to read too many real-life cases affecting real-life people -- and it's hard to get those things out of your mind once they're there. So I like my romances to have that "Calgon, take me away" aspect to them. LOL
Okay, that's my sound bite for now. LOL Gotta fly. :)
I'm with Donna, though I'm fortunate that I never had that kind of job. But I can't watch certain movies or read books where I know the situations will either scare the heck out of me or piss me off. Anything relating to children suffering or being scared - can't do. WON'T do.
I spend enough of my day irritated about something. No sense in doing something for enjoyment that is just going to piss me off too.
Harder on the men? *LOL* Wow. Amazing. I love how they turned a situation that was about the woman and turned it into all about the man. Poor thing.
I remember some of the books I read in the 80s (romance, mostly historical) having the "almost rape" scenes. I think that was the term for it. Basically it was the woman saying, "No, I don't want to!" or was ASLEEP (I always loved this trope during this era) and the hero had sex with her anyway. "Well, you were moaning in your sleep, I thought you wanted it." Really? OR... "Well, you said no, but your body said yes, and we're married..." Right. That's acceptable. Now granted I can't deny I bet a lot of sex has happened this way, but as society has changed, it seems more and more the standard to at least wake up the girl you're sleeping with first to make sure this is what she wants. And if she says no, back off, she's not being coy, she hates your guts.
I don't read a lot of books that feature rape. That did seem to be more a theme of the 80s. Nowadays it's about murder and kidnapping and beating you within an inch of your life. I'm not a fan of thrillers, so I don't have a lot to add in how they've changed. I read a lot of historicals and they've changed in that they've become a whole lot more PC. Which is good and bad.
Forgot to say I've seen a bit of The Glades. That is a fun character. Did you know he's Australian in real life? I saw him on a promo for the show and his cute quotient went through the roof with that accent. LOL!
Ter - multiple rapes in the first chapter? Yikes! I'd have to set that down too. There is a certain reality, esp in historical novels, of "this is what real women were going through," day in and day out. And that's important. And that might have been part of my visceral anger at this particular book -- it's probably fairly accurate to how NYPD detectives in 1985 thought about women who had been raped. I can't even distance myself enough to say, "well, surely that would never have happened," because clearly, it was the reality women faced.
Realistic or not, I'm with you on not wanting to fill my head with it.
Ter - the guy from the Glades is Australian? ohhhhhhhhhhhhhmygod. I so have to track down an interview just so I can hear the accent. You're right -- cutie quotient just skyrocketed :)
Donna - I didn't know you were an attorney. I can totally see how having to so closely examine the specific facts of real-life crimes with real-life victims would make you need to avoid that now in fiction. I feel the same way about the show "Criminal Minds." As a concept, and from a psychological point of view, I find it fascinating. But I can't stomach sitting through an entire episode because it's usually about some horrible, awful crime where some child has been tortured and slaughtered. *shudder*
I'll take a happy ending over that stuff any day!
Ask and ye shall receive.
http://www.aetv.com/the-glades/set-blogs/matt-passmore-interview.jsp
woo hoo!
That did seem to be more a theme of the 80s. Nowadays it’s about murder and kidnapping and beating you within an inch of your life.
Excellent point, Hellie -- we've traded one violent crime for another.
I also totally agree that the entire concept of consent has changed. Yes, if a woman does not know that you're in the same room, she HAS NOT consented! How hard is that to grasp? Yet just recently I read a novel (published this year), where that's exactly what happened. I had to set it down immediately. And that male attitude was soooo prevalent through this mystery I had to read, this idea of "well, it's so hard to tell if a woman is consenting or not that it's not really fair for her to be able to claim rape." Um, dude, it's a yes or no question -- not really that difficult to decipher.
“well, it’s so hard to tell if a woman is consenting or not that it’s not really fair for her to be able to claim rape.”
Yeah, this boggles the mind.
Though my dad (who's 88 and a product of his generation) think women should dress appropriately so not to encourage rape, nor run around in the wrong crowds, drinking, carrying on, and going home alone down dark alleys.
I will grant you doing those things can put you in danger and you should be a bit more aware of what's going on, but never is it the woman's fault for being at the wrong place at the wrong time while wearing the wrong skirt. Come on. The criminal is a criminal no matter what.
But it does always boggle me that men always try to blame women for the foul crap they like to do. Starting with Adam.
I have noticed my father doesn't give me this lecture anymore--and I haven't decided it's because I'm not dressing as slutty, or drinking as much, or he now thinks I'm too old and unattractive to be picked on by a criminal.
The "mixed signals" defense. Total bullshit.
Yes, but the signals weren't for YOU bozo, they were for the HOT guy who went home with some tramp...
Actually today on the TODAY show, they were talking about a girl who had created a powerpoint presentation about men she'd slept with (athletes at her school) and she RANKED them. She emailed it to her friends, who emailed it their friends, and suddenly EVERYONE has seen it.
So it's a huge embarrassment, blah, blah, blah, and then someone says, "Well, frat boys do this all the time."
True, the lady covering the story says, but girls should more ladylike--or something to that effect. Just because boys act like assholes about sex doesn't mean girls should. *LOL* I remember thinking, "What a doublestandard" but at the same time I think, "Why would a girl ever want to act like a boy? Shouldn't they aim higher?"
So now I'm torn.
Yes, but the signals weren’t for YOU bozo, they were for the HOT guy who went home with some tramp…
lol.
Wow, Hellie, that is a weird situation. There's definitely a double standard that says that it's okay for men to do that and not women, but I find it pretty distasteful no matter what gender.
My SIL is 20 and goes to school here, and I gotta say, some of the stories she tells me about her friend's sexual behaviors really worry me. Not so much that I expect them to be more "lady-like", cause that's bullshit, but I do wonder how much respect they can have for themselves and their own bodies.
Hal - I'm totally with you. It's a weird example, but look at the stuff on Texts From Last Night. The majority of those messages are clearly from college kids and my guess would be they're pretty typical of the campus lifestyle. I have to guess because neither of my two rounds with college were on a traditional campus.
To say putting this "ranking" together was unladylike is a total crock. What century are we in again? These are the same bullshit ideas that say a woman shouldn't put on pants and run a major company. Being a hard-ass business person isn't ladylike and all that crap.
The only difference between this woman and thousands of frat boys is that she a) did an excellent presentation and b) ended up with her's going viral.
a) did an excellent presentation
That totally cracked me up :)
That and the frat boys' ranking would have been ranked on how big the girls' boobs were and if she swallowed.
Great topic. I think with college and high school kids it's just an epidemic of sex for the sake of sex. And it certainly isn't about worshiping their bodies. The rational that guys do it so why should I is used...and from a standards issue that is true. The thing is, guys shouldn't be doing it either!
I hear my Mom's voice in my head... "If everyone else jumped off a cliff, would you?"
As for fiction? I honestly can't remember most of the books I read when in high school... But I read a hell of a lot more adventure, fantasy, scifi and simple mysteries so the idea of gally-ho rape wasn't brought up! Save for one series... the Gor books, which I later discovered were written by mulitple authors...and I bet they were mostly men...
Hellion - Are you channeling your inner high school boy again?
Hal - I'm a bit surprised they wanted you to read this book if it were so sexist. Yes, it may have given an accurate presentation of the times, but...
There was a BBC TV series...and they tried it here in the states...where the NYPD detective goes into a coma or something like that and wakes up back in the 70's as a cop. And is appalled at how the women cops are treated. I never managed to catch the show, but I understand it dealt with a lot of that stuff. His trying to bring modern sensibilities to the crap of the 70's cop shop.
Well, she did include that one guy "ended too early", so she used similar criteria. ;)
Chance - I remember that show, but it didn't last long. I don't care what you do, you just can't make the 70s sexy. Ain't gonna happen.
Hal asked, Do we excuse these types of misogynistic views that we now consider wrong, wrong, wrong! just because it was written in the 80′s?
I don't think we excuse them. I think we label them as "wrong" and "misogynistic" and have discussions like this one about why these labels fit the text and point to examples in fiction and in life of these attitudes that persist--like the idiot DeMint's tirade on teachers.
On the other hand, I don't think it's realistic--or even useful--to berate a writer for being a product of a particular culture. I know Milton was a misogynist, but I'm not going to deny myself the pleaure of reading Milton because he didn's share my 21st-century view of women's roles. And I know you didn't suggest I should, Hal, but there are those who say that.
As for romance fiction and rape, I was not a reader of the "bodice rippers." I loathed Whitney, My Love because I could not reconcile a character who used a riding whip on the heroine and raped her with the role of hero. But I did read and appreciate two controversial books in which the hero forces the heroine: Christina Dodd's A Well-Pleasured Lady and Anna Campbell's Claiming the Courtesan, although I admit the latter was not a comfortable read for me. In both cases I accept that the characters choices make sense for the characters the authors have created. Gaelen Foley's The Duke deals with rape (not by the hero) and its effects on a woman realistically. It's a powerful book.
Lest I seem to cite only historicals, I'll point out that even Nora Roberts, who from her first category has created strong heroines, penned some forced seduction scenes. In Tonight and Always (1983), NR writes, "His hands were everywhere, pulling, tearing her clothes as she struggled against him." Later the heroine "softens and surrenders," as heroines typically did in the such sitiuations in the 80s. Roberts herself admitted seventeen years later, ""I wouldn't play it that way now. It's too lazy, and it's demeaning to both characters."
[I don't really memorize lines from Roberts, but I wrote a long literary biographical essay on her, and so I had easy access to the quotes. :)]
I read Whitney, My Love way back when it came out, when I was obsessed with McNaught, and loved it. But I have no recollection of the scenes I hear complained about so often. In fact, there are only two scenes I can even recall.
I was maybe 16 or 17 at the time and I don't remember that book being much different from the others I was reading. Was I desensitized to it, too young, or what?
I didn't really start reading romance until the early 90s. I read some Harlequin Presents then that were a few years old, so I do remember the whole Hero's An Ass for twenty chapters followed by one chapter where he explains he actually loves her.
I don't know if I really got it then. I was only in my early teens. But I do remember thinking that guys seemed really F-ed up in the head. I mean, most of these books there was no real reason why the hero distrusted the heroine. Sometimes it was just because she was pretty. Or because she worked for him. I don't know. Didn't get it. Still don't.
Most of them were just from the female POV too. Not sure if that had anything to do with it.
2nd - I'm with you. While I'm all for everyone getting pleasure out of sex, having sex for sex's sake is unappealing to me.
I'm not sure why this book was chosen, and I'm really having to resist the urge to just lambaste the professor for his choice. I think books like these can be used as a teaching tool, but it requires very careful consideration and control on the professor's part to make sure we're actually learning something from it. This is an online class, and the professor himself is basically MIA, which is only making everything worse. At this point, I'm just praying I can keep my mouth shut and my nose down long enough to pass b/c I have to have these credits. It's getting harder by the day, though :)
I mean, most of these books there was no real reason why the hero distrusted the heroine. Sometimes it was just because she was pretty. Or because she worked for him.
That's funny...and true. Though part of me does get it, even though it's completely irrational and ate up. It's the same sort of irrational behavior that some ex-girlfriend slept with your best friend, so every woman you date thereafter is punished for it. If she's pretty, she's a slut. If she's friendly, she's a slut.
Sure, we all need therapy. Of course we do! *LOL*
Granted there should be a balance, I guess. While I think most books should feature ate-up, irrational people, who are blaming their current love interest for something done to them 20 years ago--there should be that handful of books featuring NICE, well-adjusted heroes and heroines who loved their families and siblings and parted amicably from all their previous loves. I know these people exist. I've hung out with them. I think they're weird as hell, and I'd never seek out these books--but to be fair, I think they should be equally represented so Marn will find a story she can relate to. *grins wickedly*
Janga said, I don’t think it’s realistic–or even useful–to berate a writer for being a product of a particular culture.
I think this is a really excellent point, Janga, and I believe this particular author actually was an NYPD detective throughout the 70's. I can't really fault him for not being ahead of his time when he was seeped in a culture like that.
I picked up Whitney, My Love just a year or so back with no idea what I was getting myself into. The riding crop scene had been pulled out of the edition I read, so I adored the first 300 pages and then, "Bam!" Suddenly he's raping her and I was horrified.
I do find it really fascinating, though, to see how authors like Nora deal with this, when they've been publishing romance through all these changes. That's really interesting to see how her own reactions have changed, even to scenes that she once wrote.
I remember reading Whitney, My Love, but I do not remember the riding crop scene.
It was edited out of later editions?? Maybe I read the edited edition??
Ter, from what I heard, later editions of Whitney, My Love had been changed. I know in the one I read, he got mad and thought about hitting her with a riding crop, but didn't. Apparently in the original version he did. Why they pulled that out and not some other scenes I don't know.
It was edited out of later editions?? Maybe I read the edited edition??
I haven't read the original scene, but from what I've heard, you'd probably remember it if you had :)
Marn, I think including the male POV does make a big difference. I mean, if I can empathize with him and understand his pain, I'm more willing to overlook turdish behavior. If I don't know where it's coming from (and the heroine clearly doesn't either), then I'm way less forgiving. And if a guy has been a jerk for 20-some-odd chapters, I'd start wondering why the hell she's still around to hear his big speech at the end. lol.
there should be that handful of books featuring NICE, well-adjusted heroes and heroines who loved their families and siblings and parted amicably from all their previous loves. I know these people exist. I’ve hung out with them. I think they’re weird as hell, and I’d never seek out these books–but to be fair, I think they should be equally represented
LMAO!!! Maybe it's just the angst-lover in me, but I get bored with well-adjusted, reasonable characters. I mean, not that I want them to be a priggish jerk the whole time for stupid reasons, but I love a good tortured hero *g*
I read "turdish behavior" as "turkish behavior" and was totally lost.
Maybe I read an edited edition as well. That would have been mid to upper 80s. I'll have to look at my copy tonight because now I'm really curious. I've had my early McNaughts so long, the covers are almost completely off.
I've been on a date with a guy from Turkey. Turkish and Turdish are pretty replaceable.
I meant to comment on Hard Eight being the book to read. I loved that book--it was a good one. Where Ranger ruined her for all other men. Awesome.
I'm rather annoyed your menfolk are bitching about having to read about it though. The sex scene is a PARAGRAPH. What is the problem? That the main character is a woman?
That the book was written by a woman, more like. I mean, it has guns and explosions, they should be happy.
I looked and WML was first pubbed in 1985. I'm sure I have an original copy. Huh, this is going to drive me nuts. It does seem like I would remember that!
The sex scene is a PARAGRAPH. What is the problem? That the main character is a woman?
lol. I think it's more that they're used to reading thrillers or hard-boiled detective mysteries, and JE is closer to slap-stick comedy.
One of the standard warnings in English Ed classes was that in choosing books to assign, teachers should keep in mind that girls would read boy books, but boys would not read girl books. It sounds as if that applies to adult boys too. :)
I think the show was called "Life on Mars" and I knew several people who found in fascinating. I love the idea of a 'modern' man trying to improve the way 60's guys treated the women around them.
I had no idea they'd actually go into a book and edit/change a scene to be more PC! Wow. Though I'm sure old editions are out there...
I think Janga is right. It isn't about censoring books or what we read, it's understanding the context of when they wrote and, if possible, finding the silver lining on the clouds.
I mean, geez...I can remember reading "Mandingo" and the absolute ruckus it caused!
girls would read boy books, but boys would not read girl books. It sounds as if that applies to adult boys too.
LMAO!!! Apparently it does. Oh, the things we have to do to coddle men's delicate emotions.
JE is closer to slap-stick comedy
But it's fine when Will Ferrell does slap-stick?
Adult boys! I love it! And so true!
Oh, the things we have to do to coddle men’s delicate emotions.
This is the line that sums up my week.
But it’s fine when Will Ferrell does slap-stick?
I'm just guessing that that's the problem. More than likely Janga is right and it's just a knee-jerk reaction to reading "a girl book" :)
I mean, if I can empathize with him and understand his pain, I’m more willing to overlook turdish behavior.
Exactly!
I think Janga is right. It isn’t about censoring books or what we read, it’s understanding the context of when they wrote and, if possible, finding the silver lining on the clouds.
Absolutely. I'm still too pissed-off about this book to learn something from it yet, but I'll find something, I'm sure *g*. I mean, it's not like you can plan for all the ways society will change after you publish.
Awesome blog and discussion, Hal!
I’m torn on it all… I’m not too fond of the ‘80s “he raped me and now I love him” storyline – mostly cause the guys don’t change, the woman does – suddenly she loves him and now it’s not rape anymore when clearly it was and he’s still an ass. It’s very hard for me to believe in their HEA.
That being said, I don’t mind rape stories (hear me out here!) mainly when they focus on the relationship with the heroine and hero afterwards. In my mind those types of stories, when done well, can showcase the best there is in men and what’s really important in a relationship. We know rape is about violence and power not sex and the enlightened, intelligent man who sees that and is there for his woman trying to help her regain her control and sexuality can be a very powerful story.
I’m also with Chance on the whole “what’s good for the goose is good for the gander” thing. IMHO, it’s not good for either of them and they both need to grow up and show a little more respect for themselves and others.
Going back to catch up on the comments…
Okay, I've used rape in my books. Used it as purely a tool to do violence. And in one instance, it drove the hero to truly recognize what he felt for the heroine. As he tended to her and wanted to kill the monster who'd hurt her.
It's one of those plot devices...I will do despicable things to decent people to move a plot forward. I'm wicked that way!
Chance - The issue at hand today is the hero raping the heroine and then the pair still having a HEA. Someone else raping the heroine or another character isn't necessarily out of bounds. Not if it fits the story.
Okay, case in point - The Duke by Gaelen Foley is an excellent example of how Robert changes/softens and is there for Bel after he finds out what has happened to her. At first he thinks she's a tease and then he realizes she's fighting demons and he tries to help her. The Duke is my favorite by GF for that very reason.
ITA agree about Whitney, My Love. I read it like someone watches a car crash - I just couldn't stop and was still appalled. That's not true, I kept reading thinking (cause it was a romance) that it was going to get better. I suppose I can forgive a lot if the hero is sufficiently contrite and suffers for his sins. The problem for me wasn't that he raped Whitney (that kind of made a weird sort of sense considering his personality). The real problem was that he wasn't nearly as sorry or as remorseful and careful in the future as he should have been. He just kept making the same mistake over and over and she put up with it. Again... hard for me to believe in the HEA. That's just dysfunctional not romantic!
Yeah, Bo'sun - True! I really cannot get behing a H/H rape thing.
HA! Totally off subject! http://blastr.com/2010/10/johnny-depp.php
Irish -- you bring up a very good distinction between books where the hero rapes the heroine as a perfectly acceptable way of making her heroine fall in love and a book where a woman who has been raped in the past (or even in that book, by someone ELSE) is recovering from that. I call those "rape recovery" books (no idea if that's an actual term or just what I say), and those I usually like (if done well, of course). SEP's "It Had to be You" comes to mind as a phenomenal example of a romance between an intelligent, loving man and a woman who was learning to accept the violence of her past and move forward with her own sexuality.
In those books, it's clear that rape is a) not okay, ever, and b) the victim is exactly that. A victim of a violent crime and nothing else. Not at fault, not deserving of, and certainly not supposedly falling in love because of it.
In this particular book, I think what bothered me so much was the prevailing attitude that it wasn't a big deal. And worse, that a woman having the right to bring a criminal complaint against a man who has raped her somehow put an unfair burden on men. It just makes me want to hit something.
Yes! Excellent point on Whitney, My Love. At no point did he ever understand how badly he'd hurt her. His actions were justified in his mind, and he kept right on acting the exact same way. Every single time he got upset with her about something, rather than actually talking about like adults, he resorted to violence -- either physical or sexual -- to make his point. I couldn't believe that happy ending either, because the next time the slightest problem comes up in their relationship he'll do the same thing to her!
Hal - I really think you should bring out your objections reg. the assignment of this book. Especially if there isn't going to be a discussion with the prof and class reg. how out of date it is. I mean, there needs to be a reason it was assigned, right? What are you supposed to learn from this?
It's risky, but you have a right to not find yourself subjected to what could amount to a subtle form of sexual harrassment.
Hear me out! I spoke up reg. the way one of the instructors kept hammering away with her personal bit of religious moralizing at RT... Nothing really changed, but I spoke up for my sake more than anything else. And considering how this teacher eyed me in Columbus...it may have actually been forwarded to her. And I understand she did temper her opinion afterward and keep it more professional.
Chance! That link is the best story ever! I wonder what it would take to get Johnny Depp to show up here.....hmmm.....
Oh I'll be very vocal about it at the end of the semester when we evaluate the class -- I just can't decide if it's worth throwing a fit about now, before the grades are in, you know?
The other thing is that everyone is all riled up about his general choices of books -- so far, they've all been pretty crappily written books, chosen for no discernible reason we can see. My objections right now aren't so much about his choosing this book, but his clear lack of any ability to turn this into a productive situation we can learn from. So I don't want to sound like I'm just yet another student whining because I don't like the books I'm forced to read. I'm whining because he's doing a terrible job of teaching the books he did choose :) (if that makes sense)
Sigh. It's a quandary! Or quandry...or quandery... Been outta school a while, ya know!
I just know I'd really want to know why this particular book was assigned. If it was to highlight how standards change, etc...to make a writer aware of the traps of anchoring your reality too deep in a particular era... I don't know. I just know I'd want so answers!
Yeah, I definitely want to know as well. We just starting talking about this book, and will for another full week, so some explanation might be coming....if not, he's going to have a lot of angry students to answer to. You know it's bad when even the men in the class are horrified by the contents!
I guess that is the question that determines the reaction. What were you supposed to learn from this? Was it world building? Was it creating characters accurate to their time and circumstances? If the purpose was to look at the structure of the story, the plotting and development instead of the content, then maybe it wasn't such a terrible choice.
Awww, that's cute. *LOL* Of course, the school was nearby where he was working anyway. It's not like flew from one corner of the globe in costume and showed up...but still, the principle of the thing, that's really cool.
And I *LOVE* the kid wrote they had a plenty supply of rum for him.
And I *LOVE* the kid wrote they had a plenty supply of rum for him.
That's totally my kind of kid :)
SEP’s “It Had to be You” comes to mind as a phenomenal example of a romance between an intelligent, loving man and a woman who was learning to accept the violence of her past and move forward with her own sexuality.
Another of my all time favorite books. In fact most of my favorite books could be termed "rape recovery" books. And now I know why! LOL They do seem to showcase the most amazing men helping the heroine deal with something truly horrific. Simply Love is another of my favorites - same sort of theme, except the hero is scarred also.
Ter - definitely. We had one book assigned a few semesters back (with a phenomenal professor) that content-wise disturbed me to the point that I literally had to throw away the book because I couldn't even handle the idea of those particular words being in same building as me. Marn was with me when I started reading it (remember that conference last year in Jersey?) and we were both just horrified.
But it turned out the whole reasoning was that it was written in 1st person, from the POV of an outsider, watching the victim being raped and abused by his friends. The narrator wasn't participating in the crimes, but he was complacent in the fact that these crimes were occurring. It forced me as the reader to also passively stand by and watch this poor girl be really horrifically abused and eventually killed. It turned out to be a really fascinating discussion about POV choices, and where our sympathies lie, and how different the book would have been from the victim's POV, or even one of the perpetrator's POV, or if it had been mixed.
I still didn't enjoy the book, (and would never ever ever read it again), but it made me think about POV in a way I never had before.
I'm really, really hoping that there's some brilliant kernel of insight we can similarly take from this current book. We'll see....
What's the saying? You can learn just as much from a badly written book as a good one? Is this a book of "What not to do with your crime novel?" or as the others have said, using setting, characterization correct with the period, etc, to tell your story.
Maybe you can pull a good grade out of not going off about his questionable book list, but by still tying it to writing, as thinly connected as it seems to be.
It is bad if the boys are horrified.
It turned out to be a really fascinating discussion about POV choices, and where our sympathies lie, and how different the book would have been from the victim’s POV, or even one of the perpetrator’s POV, or if it had been mixed.
See this would be a cool discussion. This is like a Book Club Discussion Group...but with grades and a degree on the line. *LOL*
They do seem to showcase the most amazing men helping the heroine deal with something truly horrific.
JR Ward's "Lover Awakened" is another favorite of mine, but it's flipped on it's head. It's the HERO who has been horrifically sexually abused and raped, and the HEROINE, who though her own sexual confidence, helps him recover and learn to enjoy his own sexuality.
That's not easy to pull off!
But I think I love those books for the same reason, Irish. To watch true love genuinely conquer something so evil as rape is awesome.
In this particular book, I think what bothered me so much was the prevailing attitude that it wasn’t a big deal.
I think any type of assault (even a kiss) when the heroine says no can be devastating. The authors who can manage to get that across to the reader are the ones that I truly admire. It's conveying the heroine's loss of power and control not necessarily how badly she was injured, IMO. You get the feeling, especially with men, that if she wasn't battered and bloodied there wasn't a crime (what's the big deal, like you said).
Maybe you can pull a good grade out of not going off about his questionable book list, but by still tying it to writing, as thinly connected as it seems to be
That's the goal at the moment. These are the last two credits I need, as far as the reading classes go, and I'm bound and determined to NOT have to re-take this next semester.
It is bad if the boys are horrified.
Oooo! That borders on it's not just a woman's issue if the guys are horrified, too? So now it's a real issue.
Careful!
*ducking thrown rum bottle
And yes, wasn't that adorable that he warned them off of mutiny!?
This is like a Book Club Discussion Group…but with grades and a degree on the line. *LOL*
yeah, that's basically what these classes are. You have to take a certain number of them, in various genres, depending on what you write. So since I write a weird mix of whatever-the-hell-I-write, I took one on romance, one on horror, and now this one on mysteries.
It’s conveying the heroine’s loss of power and control not necessarily how badly she was injured
Yes!!! And not a single character in this book -- male OR female -- seemed to get that, which makes me think the author doesn't get it either.
It seems like it would make a fascinating discussion, all in all. I hope the missing in action professor shows up and it ends up being discussed.
So now it’s a real issue.
I didn't mean it like that. It's a real issue regardless. But I still think it's amazing when a man actually thinks so.
I know, Hellion. Sorry. Didn't mean to sound so condescending.
It's so easy to, even as women, pay more attention to an issue when the guys get involved. It's like we don't always trust ourselves to recognize a real issue as universal unless the guys are offended also. Too many centuries of being told we're being hysterical or ruled by hormones or whatever!
I hate seeing women's issues treated as if they aren't just human issues! And I know you do, too. I was out of line.
It’s like we don’t always trust ourselves to recognize a real issue as universal unless the guys are offended also.
Yes, but if the guys aren't offended, how is it "universal"? Wouldn't universal mean men AND women, or do you mean universal to women?
Men can be raped, but on the whole, I don't think guys think about that when rape is brought up. (Unless you mention prison, then it seems to come to mind.)
I think your blog points directly at why I don't think I can do school again! LOL I just wouldn't be able to take an English class and read something "classical" or "relevant" that I really didn't want to read. Like you said about that book you started last year that you had to get out of your house - once it is in your brain you can't scrub it out and there are just some images I don't want to live with for the rest of my life. I'm having a hard enough time resigning myself to the stuff they have my kids reading and learning.
I don't want to stick my head in the sand but I also want to decide what images I let in and what ones I just don't want.
Well, it's still a problem, even if the guys aren't offended. I mean, bigots don't see their automatic reaction to other races as a problem...but it's still recognized as one by the rest of the world.
Well, where bigots don't rule, of course.
Universality...well, I suppose unless the rest of the conscous universe chimes in with an opinion... Maybe worldwide problem?
Wow, this gets tricky to decipher! I mean, in a society where women are stoned for looking at another man, it isn't a problem. It gets hard to figure out. I suppose it's all about common consensus. But once upon a time, it was common consensus that blacks weren't human.
Sigh!
It's hard, Irish! I remember reading a book some years back and once it was done, I set it down and decided... He's a good author, but I don't want that image in my head. Not going to read him again.
In some way, maybe exposing kids to some of this stuff is more about sensitizing them to it, and not desensitizing them.
I mean, I'm not reading anymore of one author I totally enjoyed because of an epilogue in her last that just turned my stomach.
I mean, I’m not reading anymore of one author I totally enjoyed because of an epilogue in her last that just turned my stomach.
WTH happened in the epilogue? Did she kill puppies or something?
In some way, maybe exposing kids to some of this stuff is more about sensitizing them to it, and not desensitizing them.
That does tend to be my worry - are they making the kids more empathetic and socially responsible or just desensitizing them to the atrocities of the world.
My daughter, especially, has had more than one sleepless night unable to wrap her mind around the horrors she's learning about.
Or something... I e-mailed you details, Hel.
Irish, I can totally see your worries. I know TV shows a lot of the example where kids are desensitized, but who knows how many are out there like your daughter, who become aware of stuff to a greater degree?
They don't make headlines, so we don't hear about them! But I do believe they are out there and will make a difference.
I'm funny that way, I just have to believe that.
Post a Comment