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Thursday, June 3, 2010
Who Helps Us Best?
Writing Groups, Programs & First Readers
Last weekend I attended a scifi/fantasy convention called BayCon, held in San Jose, CA, every year. It was a fun event, chocked full of steampunk regalia. I saw but two Star Trek uniforms, btw. The convention circuit is a changeable beast! Now, I didn’t stay for the big masquerade, so who knows what showed up there!
But I digress.
Situation normal, right!?
I attended one panel discussion on the value of writing groups and writing programs. They were specifically discussing the immersion programs, as well as the extended classroom type programs held at universities. (General consensus, if you’re going to write, you’re going to write and the monetary value of these programs depends on your commitment to writing. They won’t make a writer out of someone who just doesn’t have it in them.)
They also spoke of the value of groups such as the Inklings…where a group of authors get together regularly to evaluate each other’s works. (This sounded really vicious to me. I could see a very small group, but to hear how these great authors tore into each other…brrrrr! Give me a group of three, maybe four, and a promise to remain civil…) (I scare easily. Really. I do! I’m working on it…I know, I need to be braver…)
Eventually, the panel wove around to the value of contests and simple critique groups, where to find them and how to reap the greatest value from them. And cut lose the ones that offer you little assistance as a writer. (Best advice on this? Find one that is on par with your writing skills or just a scad above so that you are challenged. But everyone must progress over time, ala need less line edits, less pointing out of the obvious, etc.)
Now, knowing I was in hostile territory, I did not bring up RWA and its excellent program to assist aspiring authors. (Yes, I am a coward. I know the prejudice that exists in this venue to the romance genre. Just as the flip side is true, though I will admit, seldom as virulent.)
I’ve done some research into other groups and been pleased to discover there are actually other writing groups. But few have the open embrace of the RWA when it comes to those who are learning the skill. Months ago, the Bo’sun did a quick online search for me and came up with several dealing with fantasy. (Why can’t I find these things when I look? I am totally a dweeb when it comes to knowing how to search!)
But even those she found had little advice and welcome to those who haven’t published already. A group was brought to my attention at the panel. The California Writers Club, and I’m looking into it!
And my adorable husband actually did some research and found a writing group specialized for those who write porn. Isn’t he sweet? (He really, really, really, wants to be able to say his wife writes porn. My dear twisted husband.)
I do appreciate the specialty groups within RWA and believe they are on the right track with building the market and audience by encouraging involvement in the genre. Because in the long run, even those who never move on to write a book can appreciate the sense of belonging that the RWA generates with its multi-layered programs. And this sense of belonging builds an audience that remains loyal.
The newbie group I helped shepherd about RT in April are starting a critique group. Enough of them live around Columbus to make it work. And I think it will certainly help their feeling of belonging and likely see more completed MS than if they all went off on their own.
One very interesting thing brought up in the discussion at BayCon was the difference between a critique group and a first reader. This was the simple word the panel used, I immediate thought of the beta reader and how I used one with The Kraken’s Mirror. Scapegoat helped me a great deal with her viewpoint on the overall book, as well as specifics. (She’s a great beta reader, btw.)
As Hellion pointed out last week, the difficulty with contests is the lack of a complete read. No feedback on the overall ARC, the world building, the greater plot movement. The same can be said with critique groups. Unless a group is pledged to read the entire book…you won’t get the overall feedback on how you did in general. Perhaps the answer to this is an agreement one week where total reads are the goal… And a list of questions…
Did the story work? Could you see the building conflict coming and did I resolve it nicely? Did I surprise you? Did I make you laugh? Cry? Were you satisfied with the entire book?
I left that panel with a much more appreciative viewpoint of the importance of having a reader read your book. Beta, first…whatever you call them.
Anyone else done some research into what is offered by specific groups? I know there is the Mystery Writers of America, the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America, the Erotic Readers and Writers of America (where the use of the word smut and porn isn’t turned away from!) and the Western Writers of America. I assume there are many, many more.
Question of the day! What is your experience with critique groups? Finding them, staying in them? Does it turn into mostly a support group and laugh fest? (Nothing wrong with that, we all need to laugh. We also need to write!) Programs? First readers? I will go on the record to be a first/beta reader…
Last weekend I attended a scifi/fantasy convention called BayCon, held in San Jose, CA, every year. It was a fun event, chocked full of steampunk regalia. I saw but two Star Trek uniforms, btw. The convention circuit is a changeable beast! Now, I didn’t stay for the big masquerade, so who knows what showed up there!
But I digress.
Situation normal, right!?
I attended one panel discussion on the value of writing groups and writing programs. They were specifically discussing the immersion programs, as well as the extended classroom type programs held at universities. (General consensus, if you’re going to write, you’re going to write and the monetary value of these programs depends on your commitment to writing. They won’t make a writer out of someone who just doesn’t have it in them.)
They also spoke of the value of groups such as the Inklings…where a group of authors get together regularly to evaluate each other’s works. (This sounded really vicious to me. I could see a very small group, but to hear how these great authors tore into each other…brrrrr! Give me a group of three, maybe four, and a promise to remain civil…) (I scare easily. Really. I do! I’m working on it…I know, I need to be braver…)
Eventually, the panel wove around to the value of contests and simple critique groups, where to find them and how to reap the greatest value from them. And cut lose the ones that offer you little assistance as a writer. (Best advice on this? Find one that is on par with your writing skills or just a scad above so that you are challenged. But everyone must progress over time, ala need less line edits, less pointing out of the obvious, etc.)
Now, knowing I was in hostile territory, I did not bring up RWA and its excellent program to assist aspiring authors. (Yes, I am a coward. I know the prejudice that exists in this venue to the romance genre. Just as the flip side is true, though I will admit, seldom as virulent.)
I’ve done some research into other groups and been pleased to discover there are actually other writing groups. But few have the open embrace of the RWA when it comes to those who are learning the skill. Months ago, the Bo’sun did a quick online search for me and came up with several dealing with fantasy. (Why can’t I find these things when I look? I am totally a dweeb when it comes to knowing how to search!)
But even those she found had little advice and welcome to those who haven’t published already. A group was brought to my attention at the panel. The California Writers Club, and I’m looking into it!
And my adorable husband actually did some research and found a writing group specialized for those who write porn. Isn’t he sweet? (He really, really, really, wants to be able to say his wife writes porn. My dear twisted husband.)
I do appreciate the specialty groups within RWA and believe they are on the right track with building the market and audience by encouraging involvement in the genre. Because in the long run, even those who never move on to write a book can appreciate the sense of belonging that the RWA generates with its multi-layered programs. And this sense of belonging builds an audience that remains loyal.
The newbie group I helped shepherd about RT in April are starting a critique group. Enough of them live around Columbus to make it work. And I think it will certainly help their feeling of belonging and likely see more completed MS than if they all went off on their own.
One very interesting thing brought up in the discussion at BayCon was the difference between a critique group and a first reader. This was the simple word the panel used, I immediate thought of the beta reader and how I used one with The Kraken’s Mirror. Scapegoat helped me a great deal with her viewpoint on the overall book, as well as specifics. (She’s a great beta reader, btw.)
As Hellion pointed out last week, the difficulty with contests is the lack of a complete read. No feedback on the overall ARC, the world building, the greater plot movement. The same can be said with critique groups. Unless a group is pledged to read the entire book…you won’t get the overall feedback on how you did in general. Perhaps the answer to this is an agreement one week where total reads are the goal… And a list of questions…
Did the story work? Could you see the building conflict coming and did I resolve it nicely? Did I surprise you? Did I make you laugh? Cry? Were you satisfied with the entire book?
I left that panel with a much more appreciative viewpoint of the importance of having a reader read your book. Beta, first…whatever you call them.
Anyone else done some research into what is offered by specific groups? I know there is the Mystery Writers of America, the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America, the Erotic Readers and Writers of America (where the use of the word smut and porn isn’t turned away from!) and the Western Writers of America. I assume there are many, many more.
Question of the day! What is your experience with critique groups? Finding them, staying in them? Does it turn into mostly a support group and laugh fest? (Nothing wrong with that, we all need to laugh. We also need to write!) Programs? First readers? I will go on the record to be a first/beta reader…
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169 comments:
Following Donna's advice I am posting before having my coffee.
Yesterday Donna suggested that plenty of scotch would improve my rowdiness and help me past the moderator's evil clutches ... lack of coffee will have to do as I need to be sharp later today! *grin*
First congrats on finding an agent Chance ... yep I have been catching up on the headline news. First step on the ladder to fame is always worth a drink. :D
No, begone evil devil. I won't touch a drop, though the aroma of that coffee is sorely tempting me to sell you my soul !
(He really, really, really, wants to be able to say his wife writes porn. My dear twisted husband.)
I think he's telling you that he wants to help with the research Chance. Always a market for that stuff. And he has to eat. :wink:
I used to support 'brainstorming' groups, but found that the best ideas generally emerged after a few pints ... Donna may have a point!
Though I'm all for you ladies diligently studying each other's manuscripts and trying to improve. I will need definite evidence that it works before I submit to such torture though. I'm more cavalier in my writing. Too much critiquing can wreck the spontaneity and turn the beer sour.
OK Mr devil. You can have my soul. Just give me the coffee pot NOW!
Ha ha first comment of the day! Maybe late nite feedings won't be so unproductive....
I've never been able to get really involved in large critique groups, the kind that critique to a pool. I did meet two of my three fabulous CPs through a smaller critique group where they pair writers up.
That said I think CPs work best when a little bit business and a little support group.
Chance, this is great. I envy you getting to go to all these conventions too!
Q, that was quite a post before consuming caffeine! I am beyond impressed! (I'm also a little worried about my reputation as one who promotes liquor. Mmm. Maybe I should quit promoting liquor! LOL)
Welcome back, Marn! I assume you brought the little one with you too. :)
I have a beta reader, but I haven't been in a critique group for a hundred years. The first one I tried scarred me -- LOL -- I guess the way lots of people feel about contests. :)
Oh, and one thing I like about contests: when I final, I know the agent/editor will be reading the entire entry. However, if I send that same thing as a partial, they can stop reading at any time. So it always felt like I was getting more of their attention, so it made it worth the risk.
Okay, I'm gonna stop and drink some caffeine. :)
Congrats, congrats, CONGRATS!!
Currently ingesting my caffeine. The internet is still keeping tabs on me via the code.
Good thing I wear a mask and burned off my fingerprints.
I've been a part of online stuff (mostly cheerleading for one another as we write for fun) and the one "critique" group I belonged to was great. I was in the process of shifting from fan fiction writing to original writing and didn't share much so I don't have much to offer in ways of opinion.
Now, Sin, don't be silly. You have all sorts of opinions. Share.
I have learned that I am not CP kind of person. Can't really be one and don't want one. That is, not going to exchange every word as I write it. Hellie and I switch excerpts from time to time, mostly to say, "I wrote this last night and cracked myself up!" Rarely do we do more than, "That was hysterical!" or the occasional, "But why would she do that?"
In the Q&A session at Nationals I attended for Nora Roberts, someone asked her about crit partners. Her answer was something like "If [insert name of her oldest and dearest friend] read my work and said something like 'You could change X, Y and Z just a little' I would reach through the phone and rip her throat out." I'm paraphrasing a bit, but she did say rip her throat out.
This is how I feel. NOT that I'm anything like Nora, but I'm not cut out to get feedback on every sentence I throw down.
Q - I'm sure you're right. Always willing to help out on the research, me husband.
He's also a bit twisted, but I like him that way.
I agree, it's really hard to hand your baby over to be picked at. When the panel at BayCon mentioned the dangers of 'group think' I swear I heard a chime go off in me head. I worry about 'group think' and finding myself chasing the elusive approval of a group mind.
I think this is why I reek at contests...
I also have an extremely fragile ego and am all but certain I'd end up in a critique group that would strip me bear and circle my flaws to the point of no return.
I'm probably wrong, but the fear is there!
Have that cuppa! With a dash of whatever slides down easiest...
Marn - I tend to agree. I almost feel it's more a moral support that is best as opposed to the strict grammarian, etc. A discussion of rules and how to best implement them, not the big red pen and lots of slashing.
As a writer, I need the support more than the tear down.
And it sounds like you have the right sized group!
And welcome back! Hope the wee one will let off sucking your brain now!
I’m also a little worried about my reputation as one who promotes liquor. Mmm. Maybe I should quit promoting liquor!
Donna, I thought that you managed a wine shop once-upon-a-time? Obviously old habits die hard. So I say go with the flow ( of liquor) get into the spirit ( preferably a 1787 Chateau Lafite Bordeaux ) of things and relax … with the help of a Hottie!
And thank you, Q, fer commenting about the agent thing. It's pretty exciting! I hope her enthusiasm translate into many sales! And if it don't, it's still nice to have someone so enthusiastic!
Donna - ;-/ ... Ya sure they read the whole thing? I wonder about that...
Perhaps if I could get past the judges who insist on slamming me for strange things I'd feel more confidence in that system...
Do you feel that your beta reader helps with the greater questions I posted? Mine really did. Would you agree that critiqu groups seldom reach that same point of helpfullness?
Come on, you've had your morning cuppa...share your experiences!
Sin - Morning, sunshine. I know, Capt. ChaCode still requests my password everytime, but I like having me blog replies in me mail box, so I'm not going to log in to avoid 'im.
Would you return to a critique group at this point in your writing? Did you feel it helped in the transition from fanfic to your own fic?
Did you feel like you contributed to helping others? I wonder about that...
My local RWA does a critique session most meetings and I strive to say something helpful about the things people share.
Forgot to say, this is exactly what I want when I ask someone to read my stuff.
Did the story work? Could you see the building conflict coming and did I resolve it nicely? Did I surprise you? Did I make you laugh? Cry? Were you satisfied with the entire book?
When I think it's done and ready to actually submit somewhere, that's when I need the typos and 'put a comma here' stuff. But when I send rough stuff, don't point out the obvious. LOL! Makes me crazy. (This is what my sister did - pointed out I had a "d" for an "s". Really? That's ALL the feedback you have? LOL!)
Sin, thanks for the Backspace blog comment. And, uh, thanks for the warning about the muse and the bumper-to-bumper traffic. LOL
My bad experience with critique partners/groups wasn't so much about my being fragile -- it was more about them REWRITING what I had written. One of them did an entire line edit -- making it a different story! LOL
I think moral support is a good thing. And I think sharing stuff is good too -- sometimes you just want to find out if somebody else has the same emotional response you had when you wrote it.
Bo'sun! I'm tending ta agree with LaNora... I don't mind some suggestions. You've had some good ones for me. My sometime critique partners reaction to The Kraken's Mirror was interesting... "You're nuts."
Now, coming from her I actually found that encouraging. When she says I'm nuts, I'm on the right path for what I write!
I need Haleigh to climb aboard and give some feedback on the writing program she's attending...
Donna - You hit it exactly for me. They REWRITE the story. Someone gave me feedback once and when she was done, I said "That sounds like a great story. It's just not MY story."
Julie - Don't encourage Donna with the hotties. She's already been close to abusing the privalege and hogging the hotties most of the time! ;)
I think moral support is a good thing. And I think sharing stuff is good too — sometimes you just want to find out if somebody else has the same emotional response you had when you wrote it.
Exactly! Which is where a good beta reader comes in handy!
I haven't faced the rewrite stuff, yet. I figure life is saving the experience for me with an editor... Well, I did sorta get that with an editor last year. Least that is how I read it... Decided I didn't want to change that much to suit her...
Bo'sun - Sorry for any obvious comments I've made... :)
There really is a difference between the line edit read and the overall ARC read. I always appreciate the think you meant to put your and not you're now and then, but a reader who gets lost in the story and forgets to mark those is a treasure. And shows you wrote a treasure.
Gotta love those friends!
I have NOT been hogging the Hotties! They merely came to me to comment on how NEGLECTED they've been feeling, and though I might lend them a sympathetic. . .EAR. :)
Julie, I did manage a winery tasting room once, although I didn't drink as much as people thought (we saved that for when the customers were gone! LOL)
And thanks for suggesting I relax with the help of a Hottie. :) NOW it's been sanctioned. LOL
Hottie hogger!
Neglected!? HA!
Managed a wine tasting room... I have a sis who would consider that a dream job!
And despite her elevated status aboard the ship, I doubt Julie has the authority to sanction hottie hogging!
Neglected...!
See if I serve them any of the premium stuff anymore!
Chance, Congratulations again. Your agent has many reasons to be so enthusiastic!
Your’s is a unique, fresh voice. And you have a truck load of finished stories. What’s not to love?
Chance you mentioned the danger of failing into the crowd mindset. I have to agree that that is a problem when you have a large group critique your work.
it was more about them REWRITING what I had written
This is the biggest fear that I have when someone asks me to read their work. How far do I go in my assessment? And when does an assessment become “an opinion”?
Which IMO is not particularly helpful. Because it is mearly one person's opinion. So it can be rather distracting.
LOL -- everyone thinks certain jobs are fun -- until they see the work it requires (I'm the same way!) Working at the winery was actually very hard, and very labor-intensive. Getting free wine was nice, but half the time I didn't feel like drinking it after being around it all day!
The Hotties WERE feeling neglected! Luckily I talked them out of organizing into a union. LOL
This is the biggest fear that I have when someone asks me to read their work. How far do I go in my assessment? And when does an assessment become “an opinion”?
Which IMO is not particularly helpful. Because it is mearly one person’s opinion. So it can be rather distracting.
Julie, I think an opinion can be very helpful. After I read a book I usually check out reviews on Amazon, just to see what other opinions are. I'm often surprised that our opinions don't match! But generally when there are bad reviews, it's because the reader feels the book didn't fulfill the initial promise -- it went a different direction than they expected. And that's something I would like to have an opinion on, if I ask somebody to read my WIP.
Hope that makes sense. I need some more coffee before it's time to drink some of Chance's beverages. :)
Ever notice how focused you guys get on something serious? then I wander in and screw it up? No. Don't thank me. Its a Natural Talent.
I'm like the BP of Blogdoom. Things just start spewing out uncontrollably ...
Bo'sun and Chance -- thanks for your comments at Backspace.
Chance, you're too cute. :)
And despite her elevated status aboard the ship, I doubt Julie has the authority to sanction hottie hogging!
I have an Elevated status ?
Oh? Oooohhh! Your talking about my new push-up-bra.
Julie - I know when I was working with the newbies at RT and they would send me stuff that I had to be very careful not to wander too far into the rewrite territory. I did tend to stray into brainstorming sessions, but always with a light touch.
And thanks fer the kind comments 'bout me voice...
Fingers are crossed!
And yes, you do tend to yank the wheel and see us off course, but if the course be true, we wander back ta it! ;)
Hey! What was the shudder for? LOL
I agree with Donna (shudder) but opinion is really what you want from a beta reader. Not so much from line editors...
Though at my local RWA I read a section where my hero helped out a little girl at a pirate festival and asked the group, specifically, "Is the little girl believable?"
I have little to no experience with kids and their comments and suggestions proved helpful. It was like I asked for an opinion+ and I got it. I did some rewriting and like the vignette much better now.
The hotties are talking about your new push up bra!
Donna - Yer welcome! I do write extra blogs and have them ready when needed. And I tweak them and search out pics for them... This one? Couldn't think of the right pic for it, so it's naked.
A hottie union...might be interesting. But I wouldn't give Hellion the chance to cry 'mutiny' and toss them all overboard. We can always pick up more...
Back to being focused.
This was a great blog, Chance. And I do agree with your assessment.
But few have the open embrace of the RWA when it comes to those who are learning the skill…
I do appreciate the specialty groups within RWA and believe they are on the right track with building the market and audience by encouraging involvement in the genre. Because in the long run, even those who never move on to write a book can appreciate the sense of belonging that the RWA generates with its multi-layered programs. And this sense of belonging builds an audience that remains loyal.
The Romance writing community is very welcoming. To everyone. ( Want proof? Hey they put up with me, right?) Even their critics are aloud to voice their opinion. Romance writers are, for the most part, very generous with their time. I cannot think of any other group that is so supportive of new comers.
Or more congenial with their fans.
I agree with Donna (shudder) but opinion is really what you want from a beta reader. Not so much from line editors…
One writer friend asked me to be a Beta reafer.
Another said that she didn't want me to be her Beta reader because she valued my opinion. WTH? Is this that ripping out your throat thing?
Sin, thanks for the Backspace blog comment. And, uh, thanks for the warning about the muse and the bumper-to-bumper traffic. LOL
I forgot that you weren't here for my whole Muse road rage rant a couple years back. LOL
Dear Evil Twin,
You scare me. I may have to start wearing Depends when I'm around you.
Very truly yours,
DRD
Julie - OK, that is strange... if they value your opinion... Well...uh...that is what you want from a beta reader!?
Right?
Color me confused.
I love the scifi/fantasy community, really, I do. But they don't have a system that is specific for the scifi/fantasy writer. They are evidently quite welcoming once you've got that writer's credit, but even then...
Perhaps it is the nature of the beast they write. I've yet to run into a romance author that will actively work to destroy your spirit. I have a friend in the scifi/fantasy community who did. And it crushed her.
I very much admire how the RWA has set up the program to promote their genre, not only with readers, but with writers. I hate to think it's unique, but it may be!
Anyone have any experiences with other genre writing groups?
I did tend to stray into brainstorming sessionsI am good at
Chance, I Do feel that brainstorming sessions are my forte. In Nine Star Ki Astrology I am Chen ... ie Thunder.*
Thus my nature is open to exploring new things and adventurous. They can be somewhat hasty in their actions and can make mistakes. They are natural trailblazers for their younger siblings.
* = Nine Star Ki is based on a fundamental understanding that there is a complex sequencing system embedded in the nature of reality.
I've done a lot of critiquing, and been critiqued a lot, and I've had really good experiences and really bad experiences.
I personally don't think that having a first/beta reader at the end, versus a critique group while writing, is necessarily better. I just think the two things have very different outcomes, and which one works for you is going to be totally dependent on your style.
I need the "exchange every word as I write it". I need to know that someone is kind of watching over me and making sure I'm going the right direction. BUT, there is a LOT of trust and history necessary to pull that off. My thesis adviser at school (you turn in a complete manuscript as your thesis, so they critique the entire thing, 30 pages at a time) is awesome. He marks grammar and obvious stuff, but just kind of as "when you get to the revision stage, don't forget to fix the grammar here" type of thing. Then he makes overall comments on characterization, plot development, if things are surprising him, the overall quality of prose and imagery, etc.
I do the same thing with Marn. We swap once a week, everything we wrote that week. We don't bother to line edit, as it's a rough draft, but the overall notes are sooooo helpful. It also means we're familiar with each other's stories to the point that if one of us gets stuck, the other can jump in with plot ideas. Here's the key: because we know each others *characters* so well,
and respect and understand each other's plots, there's no rewriting or changing anything.
I've been in groups, both online and at school, that are good, and more that are useless. Because I'm required to be in a variety of groups, I've learned *very* quickly whose critique to listen to, and whose to discard in its entirety. Once you've learned to differentiate, it's much easier to get use out of these groups. If you're taking everyone's critiques at face value, you're already sunk :)
(and sorry that was so long!)
But generally when there are bad reviews, it’s because the reader feels the book didn’t fulfill the initial promise — it went a different direction than they expected. And that’s something I would like to have an opinion on, if I ask somebody to read my WIP.
Donna, i think that one of the biggest causes of why "the reader feels the book didn’t fulfill the initial promise" is poor ... or misguided marketing by the publisher or the book stores themselves. My opinion.
No, not too long! I was really curious about your opinion because I knew you were in a program.
I can see your point that the critique group/beta reader can depend on what you need. And I think you're fortunate to have a critique partner that will be familiar with the entire MS so the overall ARC can be discussed and evaluated.
I think I was mainly speaking to the critique groups where there is little continuity in regards to following a MS from beginning to end. Those who don't meet so regularly, I would think, wouldn't have the opportunity to follow a story so cleanly.
Most of us write faster than that or have moved on and want feedback on something that may be disconnected...least that was how I was thinking of it.
I also think it takes a strong sense of self to keep a distance from a critique group and reach the point of being able to evaluate who will help you and who is just tossing out 'opinion' that doesn't speak to your writing.
Where did I go with that one? Oh! I applaud your ability to evaluate so quickly! I suck at it.
Another thing I'm learning!
Blog's been busy. Good blog, 2nd!! (I have a blog in progress about beta readers *LOL* so this topic is very timely to me.)
I used to be one of those line edit sort of critiquers. You get the occasional writer who likes that--but most of them are totally offended. Me, if the line edit they did was a funnier or better line than what I had, I'd be, "Oh, that's awesome!" and I'll take it. So I guess the reason I did line edits before is because that's sort of the feedback *I* wanted, but never get. I get the vague crap. Either "Oh, that's funny" or "What's the motivation for that?"--neither of which I want.
I did an online critique group--you didn't have to be part of RWA to get in--and that was an INTERESTING experience. Lots of flammers. Lots of bad advice. *LOL* I eventually outgrew them (i.e. I got pissed when they flamed a fellow writer and stood up for her--which I rarely do--and both the fellow writer and I left.) The fellow writer and I were CPs for a while, and we'd do line edits or general stuff--we were really good for each other, I think, or I loved having her for a CP. She stopped writing though, got frustrated, and I wanted to keep writing so I had to find something new.
I joined my local RWA chapter. But their CP groups left a LOT to be desired. That was a face to face flaming. I remember having my chapter read by the group--and you can't respond--and they tell you how they feel about your chapter. So I was working on GOGU at the time, ROUGH DRAFT, NEW, and one little girl looked me straight in the eye and said, "I loathe your hero. If I bought this book, I'd throw it at the wall, then I'd go get my money back." And the other comments were much more--tactful--but along the same lines. It was not a CP group that worked for me.
I eventually, at this chapter, found Dee Knight who was looking for a critique group--a make her own--of serious writers who wanted to finish manuscripts and get better feedback. She didn't hate my hero. She liked my writing. She was a Goddess. We'd meet at the halfway point between our two places once a month and critique work. I finished my first draft of GOGU; she would occasionally do line edits (some of which I kept, some of which I discarded); she would also offer back very useful feedback to make my story better. I sometimes think you only get a CP like this once in a lifetime. *LOL* She moved to Virginia and now critiques with Terri. (I'm guessing she doesn't line edit for her.)
Now I hobble along with Sin in a CP sort of group, where we mostly write, because mostly we just want to get something done. Sin is a more exaggerated form of Terri. If you say anything more than love or hate it, she discards the whole thing. She'll literally delete the file. I've come to just appreciate that our meetings are going to be minimal and let it go. (DEE, COME BACK! *SOBBING*) I'm happy just to write.
Terri and I send back and forth snippets, and we'll hash out scenes or brainstorming things occasionally--but definitely no line edits. We don't write enough alike to appreciate the other's suggestions.
Julie -- you're right -- a lot of times the disappointed expectations come from how the book is blurbed on the back, or promoted. That happens a lot with movies too -- they try to make it look like a comedy when it's actually darker (Cable Guy for example -- LOL)
Julie - I tend to agree. A marketing plan that isn't spot on when enticing a reader to crack open a book can really do a diservice to a book.
That given, I already assume my books will garner the confused and disappointed groups...because I'm gonna be hell to market.
I guess all a writer can do is be upfront and involved as the system works and do their best to keep the marketing vision focused on the positives and not to stray off onto barely-there tangents that might see a person pick a book up, but will also see them disappointed in an unfilled promise.
Yeah, I agree -- I was in a group like that, which is actually where I met Melissa! The group itself had so much changeover, and it took so long to get feedback, that it just wasn't helpful. However, Melissa and I started working one-on-one, which was lightyears more helpful.
So I sort of think that critique groups, IF you can find a good one, can be helpful, but one or two partners are better. Marn and I, while we don't necessarily write the same stuff, write at the same speed. Just that speed factor is a BIG deal.
And I've only learned to evaluate whose critique to listen to, and whose to ignore, by being burned so many times in the past. It's a self-defense mechanism at this point :)
Welcome aboard, Cap'n! I were wondering where you were off wandering about...
I think when everyone starts writing they are so desperate for some feedback they can stumble into groups that don't end up being helpful. I admit, if I had found a group with flamers, I'd have likely curled up and died.
(Or not. Not sure since literally almost dying I do tend to shrug that stuff off more than I once did!)
Having a one on one relationship with a CP does seem to be the better ticket. Especially if you know them and they know you. You can flame some without danger of starting an all out firefight.
I remember hearing Christie Craig talk about working with Faye Hughes and how she'd send back paragraphs rewritten to Faye. I'm not sure how I'd handle that...
I do like specific help and suggestions, but that might be a bit presumptuous for me!
Do you have a specific beta reader, cap'n?
Donna - Yeah, it's like when they put all the good stuff in the trailers, promising more and then don't deliver.
Is marketing so focused on the first time buyer that they forget about the repeat factor? Screw it up for an author and those first timers will never come back!
Hey there 2nd Chance! Our local RWA group is called Central Ohio Fiction Writers, and they support more than just romance fiction. We have a monthly competition, the first week of the month we set goals and track ourselves toward it. The overall winner of the week gets a few pages criqued from a published author in the group. It works, but I do agree with you that there may be a need for a beta reader who can assess more than just 10 pages (or just find typos). Joining a critique group is good for helping you get through sections at a time. I joined a new group recently, and the things I pointed out were, if the sentence structure was awkward, if I didn't understand the flow of things, where a new paragraph should start, if the story hooked me, etc.
You have to be able to accept constructive criticism! It's okay if it sucks and you don't want to use it. But you have to understand that person felt that way when they read it. One girl is writing a story I wouldn't read. I said I needed zombies to jump out and eat everyone. :) I enjoyed her style of writing, but the story didn't hook me. Just be honest, and expect honesty. :)
Hal - From what the panel at BayCon had to say, I'd agree. Find a small group, that is on par with you. If not writing the same, then writing at the same speed and skill...and you'll grow together.
Yo'Ho! Welcome aboard! Evaluating the groups can be time consuming, and from what you wrote, you have a good handle on what to say and what to listen to.
Needed zombies to jump out and eat everyone ...were you saying her book was crap or you just wanted more zombie crunching action? ;)
I'm blushing Chance! I'm so glad that my comments were helpful to you.
As a first time beta reader i can say that I went about the process wanting to know what would best help Chance. So, I started with an email asking her what kind of input and comments was she looking for, and did she wants edits or general opinions and insight.
I think that's a very important thing for a beta reader or a CP - that you find out and set guidelines for what is helpful to YOU as a writer.
Instead of thinking - "Oh this is how everyone does it" it seems to me that you find someome who can work within your needs, not around conventional CP or Beta expectations.
I am so proud of 2nd Chance and her work. Frequently I speak to my hubby about how lucky I was to meet her at RT and how inspiring she is to me. It was an honor to beta read for you Chance!
I totally agree with Hal's KEY TO SUCCESS. You have to know the other person's characters almost as well as you know your own, but respect the other person's writing style not to change them. I think to a degree--not as well as Hal and Marn--that Terri and I do this. Because I have written back on some of her scenes and said, "I don't think your character would do that because [INSERT A REALLY GOOD REASON TO PROVE YOU KNOW HER CHARACTERS]." I don't think she liked it at first (who would), but she thought about it and then she redid it and the scene was totally what it should be.
I think a beta reader is good in the sense--depending on the reader--that it's good to have someone who hadn't read it and can catch the things that your CPs take for granted. For instance, your CP might have mentioned so-and-so is acting weird, but you explain WHY they're acting weird. CP believes it and remembers it from then on. I think a beta reader would be able to tell you if there was anything confusing--if you tied up your loose ends.
Then again, I've never had a beta reader and don't know if I had an idealized version of them. *LOL*
I remember hearing Christie Craig talk about working with Faye Hughes and how she’d send back paragraphs rewritten to Faye. I’m not sure how I’d handle that…
If it was better than mine, cool.
If it wasn't as funny, then no dice.
You have to be able to accept constructive criticism! It’s okay if it sucks and you don’t want to use it. But you have to understand that person felt that way when they read it.
Welcome Riley! I think this is important -- hearing what the reader feels when they read it, and then deciding whether to use the info, or how to use it.
I also think CPs or beta readers or whatever should be aware of HOW to deliver their info too -- that makes what they have to say valuable, or NOT. LOL
Ah, shucks! I knew you'd be a great beta since you read a ton of books for your review site! And I trusted you to be honest...
I think you bring up a good point, reg. with any critique group...ask for what you want. If you want overall impression, ask. If you're worried the main character is a bit wimpy, ask if that is what they see. I asked specifically in the previous example about the little girl at the pirate fest and got some great stuff on how to make her more real...and some compliments on how I did!
One of the things I like to do with my local RWA group is read something and then ask if anyone got a specifici impression of the age of the characters. I did that with the little girl and got spot on with my characterization. I did a love scene from The Kraken's Mirror and was delighted when no one picked up on their ages! (Well one caught the reference to a myriad of worn and weathered scars, figured that denoted some experience...)
So, be specific!
And Scapegoat...we expect to see you in Orlando!
were you saying her book was crap or you just wanted more zombie crunching action?
I think this is part of the problem. Saying "your beginning didn't hook me" is a far, far cry from "this book is crap," and to really get use out a critique group you need 1) group members who are careful and CONSTRUCTIVE about what they say, and 2) the ability to not take criticism to mean "this book is crap."
One of the things at school is that we're required to give critiques in a certain format (which is good, as they're face-to-face, and those can turn into group-bashing really, really fast if you don't have a strong personality moderating). We have to start out with what the author is doing well. Like, "The description in this section really stood out to me - I could clearly see what you meant." And "You did a good job of showing, not telling, here, here and here."
And then, anything negative has to be framed constructively. So if I didn't like someone's character, I would NOT say "I loathe your hero. If I bought this book, I’d throw it at the wall, then I’d go get my money back." That may be honest, but it's a very cruel form of honesty. I might say something like "I'm not sure this character is going to have wide appeal, and if you're aiming for mass-market, this may become a problem down the road with editors. Part of my problem with him stems from his actions in section x, y, and z, and perhaps something like a, b, and c would make him somewhat more likable." It's just as honest, but it points to specifics in the text, and specific ways to improve IF the author agrees it needs to be improved. The other thing it does is encourage the conversation to move on to brainstorming ways to create likable characters, rather than just bashing one person's character. Most suggestions thrown out at the table won't be helpful, but perhaps one or two will spark a new idea for the author.
Oh, and anyone who bashes (like the bitch who told me I need to take some basic writing classes) is taken aside by the professor and explained what it means to be a good critiquer. Not to mention that of the 80 other people in the program, half of them tracked me down to tell me how much they liked my writing, and that I should ignore the bitch :)
(oh, and Chance, getting second opinions on the worthiness of a critique before accepting it is invaluable!)
No, I think you nailed it on the head, Cap'n. It's nice when your CP ends up reading it all. But a totally fresh eye will see the flaws that you explained to your CP, but didnt' necessarily address in your entire MS.
Usually, you meant to, but it just didn't happen. Scapegoat did this for me in regards to an attack of jealous insecurity that motivates Emily toward the end of The Kraken's Mirror. And so I went in and explained it better... Most helpful!
Having a one on one relationship with a CP does seem to be the better ticket. Especially if you know them and they know you. You can flame some without danger of starting an all out firefight.
Not true. Flaming is never good.
Totally start with something positive! I heard that several times at the panel. And passed it on to the newbies board. It is much easier, as a writer, to keep the ears open for help once you believe someone is trying to help you. And that they like you!
To start with a pile of things that need to be changed and that you didn't like will just shut my listening down. Not in a good way...
It will become... "blah...blah...blah...hated...blah...disliked...blah...blah...didn't work...blah...never sell..."
Ear filters are horrible things when switched to the wrong channel!
Well, OK. Not flame, but spark?
"I hated this guy from the beginning..."
"You hate all my characters..."
"Yeah, but when he did this..."
Start a dialogue. And some words that would be button pushers with strangers can be conversation starters when you know someone well. And know they hate everything at first.
Funny Chance, I didn't think that she might have interpreted that I wanted her characters to be eaten because they sucked! It wasn't that at all. She was writing a lovely YA contemporary fiction, I guess it would be called. I prefer paranormal of any sort. The feel-good books are boring for me. Instead of "Hey Mom, I played outside today in the sandbox and I learned some morals." I want "Hey Mom, zombies almost ate Betty! But we killed em'!" I made all that up.
And then, anything negative has to be framed constructively. So if I didn’t like someone’s character, I would NOT say “I loathe your hero. If I bought this book, I’d throw it at the wall, then I’d go get my money back.” That may be honest, but it’s a very cruel form of honesty. I might say something like “I’m not sure this character is going to have wide appeal, and if you’re aiming for mass-market, this may become a problem down the road with editors. Part of my problem with him stems from his actions in section x, y, and z, and perhaps something like a, b, and c would make him somewhat more likable.” It’s just as honest, but it points to specifics in the text, and specific ways to improve IF the author agrees it needs to be improved.
EXACTLY. You can see why I got the hell out of Dodge. Even if the rest of them were constructive, it's hard to work with the bad apple. Also, if the group can't "appreciate your vision"--I think you and the group are going to feel like you're banging your heads against a brick wall from both sides.
I don't mean you can be so out there you can do whatever you want, but if you KNOW your character is unlikable, but that's your story--you sorta need a group who gets your big picture and can work constructively from that.
This group didn't seem to care about pretty much anything with my writing. Not my characters. Not my genre. Not my writing style. Not my use of adjectives...nothing.
uh, yeah. If someone used the phrase "never sell" in a critique, I'd come out of my chair. That's not appropriate. If something doesn't appeal to you, or doesn't hook you, that's all fine and well. Extrapolating judgment from that, saying something is crap or will never sell, is not only unhelpful, but cruel.
“I hated this guy from the beginning…”
“You hate all my characters…”
“Yeah, but when he did this…”
I disagree. Even if it's your best friend, that's not the way to offer constructive criticism, period. You start with something positive. You introduce it delicately. You don't say you knew all along this guy was a loser or that this experiment would fail. You'll create hostility instead of dialogue, which is what you're wanting.
That's like when you break up with a guy, and your friends go, "At last. That guy was always such an asshole." No one ever appreciates that either.
uh, yeah. If someone used the phrase “never sell” in a critique, I’d come out of my chair. That’s not appropriate. If something doesn’t appeal to you, or doesn’t hook you, that’s all fine and well. Extrapolating judgment from that, saying something is crap or will never sell, is not only unhelpful, but cruel.
And it's also a lie. SLAVE, anyone?
I don’t mean you can be so out there you can do whatever you want, but if you KNOW your character is unlikable, but that’s your story–you sorta need a group who gets your big picture and can work constructively from that.
Yes!! Just because a character is unlikeable doesn't mean it won't work. It's just a different sort of challenge.
Groups that don't like anything, or are unable to pick out what you're doing well and show you that, aren't worth your time, IMO.
Yeah, I def agree with you all, that HOW you say it is a big thing too. I am a very honest person, and have had a lot of issues with my bluntness. In my former life, I went from a production environment with lots of men (who cursed like sailors ;) to a formal corporate environment. I had a heck of a time learning not to piss people off. Well, if you don't want me to tell you that your work sucks balls, then quit screwing up! That's my thought. LOL! I think with a critique group, you should set some rules for what you're looking at, such as always include some positives. I think with one CP, you would probably form a pretty good bond that you could be very blunt without it being a flame.
Yeah, sure sounded like the wrong group for you, Hel.
But, other than just going to group after group after group...it's hard to find that right group!
Yo'Ho - I figured as much, but if they were writing a zombie epic and no munching was going on...
This is where genre could get in the way. I admit, I could never critique an inspirational. I'd be worse than useless. I'd say nothing.
OK, I think it could be done with the right friend, but I get your point, Hel.
I have one sometimes CP, who just thinks I'm crazy. I've learned that from her, that is what I need to hear to know I'm on the right track.
Sort of the anti-critique?
Hal - I had a friend who heard the 'never sell' phrase come out of a well-known author's mouth in regards to something she'd submitted. Friend went straight from that to pitch sessions and got three requests.
Never sell was a challenge to her.
I'd have been really confused and paralyzed. Then I would have grown pissed.
Hal - Do you think it just takes time for a group to cohese (is that a word?) into a helpful format? Especially in regards to how constructive they are.
In your classroom environment, it sounds like you have moderators that keep an eye on things. And certain guidelines. I know when our RWA started the critiques, they made a point of going over a handout on how do be useful to each other.
The art of constructive criticism is lost on so many people. I blame reality TV.
LOL! I'm happy to blame everything on reality TV :)
I'm not sure if it's a matter of "cohesing" or just personalities. Some people feel better about their own writing by being cruel and putting other's down. Those people aren't going to change. So no, I think it's more about finding the right group, than giving the group time to grow.
But then again, I think working one on one with a few partners is more helpful than a group setting, anyway.
Perhaps it could be done, 2nd, but I know I'm not that friend. *LOL* And if any of my friends did it to me, I wouldn't speak to them again. Or at least a month. Well, Sin could probably come in and say, "This sucked donkey balls." But I know she doesn't mean it like that. We just talk trash normally. And then she'd explain her comment in the 30 seconds I'd give her before decapitating her.
Riley, I'm glad I don't have to work with men and be that blunt. I guess perhaps on some level it's freeing, but on another level, I'd be telling everyone FU on a daily basis, 6-400 times a day. Men love talking trash to each other--I wince to just hear it. I constantly want to play the diplomat--and they look confused because they don't get what the problem is.
"Never sell " to me means New and Fresh.
OK, crew. If I don't get Bonnie out for a walk she's going to piss on my leg and eat the cat. I'll be back in an hour or so. With coffee for self, which should help any fuzzy thinking I've popped off with!
LOL! Oh, that is so true! My nephews trash talk each other so much, it is endlessly confusing.
And I blame reality TV for it!
I hear ya, Hal. Some groups are simply a wash from the get go. And I imagine few actual writers come out of them...
But the search to find people who will help can be discouraging. And it's a hard path to start...just seems hopelessly complicated.
Like me and finding much of anything on the internet. And Bo'sun just charms her computer into spitting out all sorts of helpful stuff. My computer just spits.
I've been thinking about the pros and cons of critiques and can't really decide which side "wins." I think it depends a lot on what exactly you're looking for at the stage of your writing. Hellie makes the great point that you probably want to receive the same type of critiques that you give. And, as Hal mentioned, the speed factor is a big deal. For a partnership to work, both parties have to be close to producing the same amount of writing.
Partnerships are great because you do outgrow a group fairly quickly if they have one chapter at a time submission -- like that group where I met Hal! It's a great start though for feedback on the first chapters, but the value steadily went downhill for later chapters because nobody wants to critique a later chapter if they hadn't been following along - or look it up in the archives. But getting a nice handful (five?) of critiques from five people with totally different backgrounds was great and it forces you to get a chapter polished. Another thing I think I understand now as helpful about the group is the "rule" (often broken) of this group of only being allowed to submit the same chapter once. Otherwise, you get swayed by the opinions and fall into an eternal loop of "how about this way?" and never move on. You could get around this rule, and many did with a complete revison. But it's still a loop. I got sucked in a time or two! *LOL* Maybe that's when a partner would be best to nudge you along!
It's been a long time since I've been in any sort of a critque group or partnership. I'd do it again...in the blue moon of having enough material to share! *LOL*
Actually I'm with JK Rowling about it. Avoid writing groups. The only way to get it written is to sit and write. And I think she only shared with a few trusted people, probably none of them writers, but all with an ear for a good story
I've been thinking, Chance, about your question about how tell good critiques from bad critiques. And I think one really important point is the level of emotion in the critique.
Like this bitch that told Hellie she'd try to get her money back if she bought the book. That's a VERY emotional reaction to what she read. That tells me two things. 1) Every single thing she says is going to be colored by that anger, and CANNOT be taken at face value. and 2) you're doing something really well if someone has that level of an emotional reaction. That means, whether or not the liked what they were reading, they were pulled in and engaged. And I think that fact alone would be worth more than anything else she said in her critique. If that makes any sense at all.
Congrats on getting an agent, 2nd Chance!!! Who did you end up signing with?
In response to the critique groups and everything, I think it boils down to one thing---knowing your voice. If your confident in how you write and the way you write it---and trust me, this took me a couple of years to finally be like oh, it's perfectly fine that I write like this (and once I did, I wrote the book and landed an agent). But I think sometimes, people who don't yet know their voice, will take all criticisms to heart or change things that they really shouldn't be changing.
My rule of thumb is that if three people say it, look into it seriously. But there are some things I will never change in a story. There are a few people I implicitly trust with reading my book and taking their feedback for whatever it is.
The only thing that ever drives me bonkers---and the one thing I'll always ignore---is when a critique comes back with lines crossed out what you wrote with other suggestions on how to write it. I'm always just ignore those and keep what I write the same because that's my voice and how I want it to flow. And, personally, I just think that should never be done. I mean, yes, point out if the sentence doesn't make sense gramatically but doing cross out lines and change around the wording, lol.
But, like I said, this all boils down to knowing who you are as a writer and knowing your book. If you're confident in both, then you can take a critique and sift out the good and the bad, using what you want.
I will say though . . . that I'm becoming more and more protective about who reads my books. I'm relying on fewer and fewer people, because at this point, I'll have maybe one or two readers, tops, and then send it to my agent. In my opinion, the only one that really concerns the writer is her agent and editor.
And eeps on the typos in that post. Oops.
I've been missing all the fun AND my name is being bandied about. Heh.
So much to agree with and add, of course. :) Pretty much agree with everything. It's about HOW you deliver the feedback, asking up front and providing up front what you/the writer want as feedback. Taking the emotion out - which I don't think can be done completely since we want the reading to invoke emotions.
I could not do the group, especially not the large group of minorly acquainted members. Attended a workshop once where this was done and it was really total strangers brainstorming. It was so outrageous and pointless, I couldn't believe I'd wasted my time attending. No one said anything with malice, but the "Maybe they could be aliens!" or "What if she steals a car and drives to Alabama?!" are not helpful when you're looking for specifics and not random mad libs.
I think I've learned something new today. I have always thought "line edit" simply meant editing for grammar. I did not know it involved restructuring or changing the actual words in the sentence. Other than "your participle is dangling" or something like that. And I never thought of the idea of critting in the way we want to be critted. (Yes, I'm making up my own language. Deal with it.)
Maybe this is why I wanted so badly to "learn" more about craft before I started really writing. And I'm still learning, but I feel confident I know enough to accomplish my goals. Or I've found the tools that will help me. I have to do it on my own, which is the same way I was about my homework when I was 8. It's the ultimate control freak in me coming out.
So I come back and everyone leaves. Fine.
I want to put "You're participle is dangling" on a shirt.
I hope you don't put "You're participle is dangling" on a shirt because you'll only have it pointed out you are still grammatically incorrect with the wrong "you're" in use.
the “Maybe they could be aliens!” or “What if she steals a car and drives to Alabama?!” are not helpful when you’re looking for specifics and not random mad libs.
I've been there for some of these. They aren't very helpful. *LOL*
The critting in the way we want to be critted is true to most anything though. People who are blunt generally appreciate bluntness; those who are tactful appreciate tact and are confused and hurt by insensitive people. And then there is the sex correlation. One tends to do to their partner what they wouldn't mind being done to them...
I think the more we flounder around in groups, the more we realize no one else knows what they're doing either so it's okay to proceed as we're doing. I think that groups tend to make a writer realize they need to do this alone, they need to complete the whole thing, and they need to screen who they choose to trust with their work.
Melissa,
I think that was part of the group think the panel talked about. How easy it was to keep revising to the point of pleasing no one by trying to please everyone.
A group that moves forward would be my ticket, obsolutely.
I've never heard "line edit" to reference changing lines. I always heard that in reference to marking grammar problems.
I always mark if a sentence is unclear to me, or if it was awkward enough to pull me out of the story. The author needs to know that. But they don't need my suggestions on how to re-write it -- that's their job :)
Honestly, Hel... I will probably stick to Rowling's suggestiong. I like to share tidbits and it helps to get feedback on specifics, but a general critique group likely isn't for me.
When things are going well and it's fun to chat about what you're writing... I do believe in sharing. I'm not one of those shut and write, don't share until you're done school of thought.
But I'm not sure I'll ever find a group that I want to take part in. I am very open to reading for others, though!
Hal - That makes perfect sense to me. I've attended enough art shows over the years at conventions to understand that my having a strong dislike to a paining is actually a score for the artist. (As long as it isn't reg. technique or the sort. I know nothing about art in that regards!)
But yup, to invoke a strong reaction... I can't remember...wait... It was Sophie Littlefield at my local RWA group who said the 1 star reviews on Amazon are as important to sales as the 5 star. People are likely to show interest in a 1 star book, wondering what invoked such a strong reaction.
Though, sure. I should ignore the critique who starts off with "I hate pirate stuff." Unless I win her over and she goes on to say admirable things! LOL!
Elyssa - I totally get being protective of the voice. And taking care with who reads the pre-agent/editor book.
I like having my sister read my stuff because she is a total reader. No writing experience, so I know what she reads and gets is different than a writer friend. If I want feedback on plot, story...she's the one.
Scapegoat was great because she reviews books and she is incredibly knowledgable about these things. Yup, she's writing, but is early in her process, which means she's careful...
Terri is great because she points out the timeline bumps I'm prone to.
And thanks for the congrats. I signed with Saritza Hernandez of the Lori Perkins Literary Agency. She's an a-agent and newish, but we can grow clever and successful together. And she loves the book. Can't ask more than that!
Hellie - What would I do without you?! (But look like a moron...)
Hal - When I find a sentence that throws me off, I pull out my favorite word > Tweaking. "This needs tweaked..." or "I'd tweak this here because..."
Ask Chance, I suggest tweaking a lot. LOL! The poor woman will never send me another synopsis.
Bo'sun! Actually, I think of line edits the way you do. Line edits are about grammar. But evidently more than that for Hel!
Which is a perfect illustration of how communication can make all the difference when handling a page to a critique group!
I love the mad libs way of brainstorming...but to a limit. Sin always says kill someone when you're stuck. I say add an alien. Or a pirate.
It would make a really fascinating book!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Buy a car and drive to Alabama!
ROTFL!
With an alien after you kill someone...
I think the more we flounder around in groups, the more we realize no one else knows what they’re doing either so it’s okay to proceed as we’re doing. I think that groups tend to make a writer realize they need to do this alone, they need to complete the whole thing, and they need to screen who they choose to trust with their work.
YES! But it often takes getting into those groups before you really understand how much you do know and how far you have come and that you absolutely can proceed from where you are!
YES!
Though I still like the betas...in the end.
Bo'sun, without your tweaking on my synopsis, I'd leave everyone who read them wondering what I was drinking.
I feel like my first attempt at a synopsis comes out in the Joe Pesci "Lethal Weapon" voice...
Tweak me! Tweak me!
I love it. "You're participle is dangling..." If you take out the "is" does it make sense? ;)
Yes! Thank you for doing the line edit, Chance. LOL!
The funny thing is, I've been reading little things for Hellie for years and never knew she meant something totally different for line edit. We should communicate better!
Janga - I agree.
I'm doing that a lot today, but I don't think I'm contradicting myself. I think.
Different things work for different writers. I admit that it is wonderful to not be in a total cocoon of isolation. I praise the internet for helping out with that. We are a community and the support is wonderful.
Sure the potential for abuse is there. And with critique groups it can be terrible. Same thing with judges in contests and popularity contests with writing prompts. Or book nominations.
But I digress.
Yes...where was I?
Oh, it's so subjective and I would say that as a writer learns her craft (very sexist of me, I know) that the number of voices one listens to should grow smaller. The most important voice is your own and how it leads you to tell the story.
Janga, yes, I totally mean if it's confusing grammar-wise, then it should be pointed out. But as for restructuring . . . not so much. (And this has happened to me on a few occasions by different people.)
But, yeah, I'm also discovering I work better alone. I go to one person when I'm writing the book and throw around ideas and questions with her---and will sometimes send a scene and be like so this is what I just wrote type of thing. But, overhall, it's the same cliche as for cooking: the less cooks in the kitchen, the better. ;-)
And Hellion, I totally agree with you with like often finding like for critique partners. I will say that I have toughened up a lot over the years---maybe it's from all those rejections pre-agent and after agent when I was on submission, lol. But I think it's all about trust too. Who do you trust to give you the unvarnished truth? There are very few people I trust to do that, and that's why I like to keep my books close to my chest.
I love it. “You’re participle is dangling…” If you take out the “is” does it make sense?
I hope for your sake, 2nd, you're just trying to jerk my chain.
You'll be happy to know you've succeeded.
For God's sake about the line edit, yes, I normally mean "grammar" and structure. Forget I said anything else otherwise. I will consult with my CPs who actually do the other and don't think I'm a loon.
We don't think you're a loon! I really thought I was wrong. Goodness, I don't know all the language in this game. LOL! And in most anything, terms are open to interpretation. I was just excited that I'd learned something new.
But it does work! LOL You are participle dangling. Makes perfect sense to me. :)
Trust is a BIG issue in critting.
I find it interesting...who do you trust? I'm not sure a critique group is about trust at all. Let me think how to phrase this...
Put five cooks in a kitchen and the pros, as far as I can tell from watching Top Chef Masters, won't do the stupid stuff like sabatogue each other or make really smarmy comments. (Yes, one reality TV thing I do like to watch, cooking stuff.)
Now, take something like the regular Top Chef and it turns into who can screw the other one and dis the other one.
One is competition for personal glory, one isn't the same... Top Chefs are fighting for contributions to their favorite charity... And these people respect each other and know the other is talented.
I want the critique group that works like Top Chef Masters, if at all.
And I'm not sure how I can tie that into trust issues...
I do know I'm working on a blog about who we listen to in regards to when we share our brilliance... But that may be next week...
Where the hell was I?
LOL!
Am I wrong? Doesn't it make sense?
You are participle dangling.
It's not as dirty or full of innuendo...but is it grammatically correct? Can one participle dangle?
As for the line edit, I wasn't sure either. I just knew how I used it.
Right. You go around saying, "You are participle dangling" do you? I hope they make you wear a helmet when you do. To explain to people why you're talking that way.
Hell. If you're using it in conversation...
Well, no. But it your using it in conversation, who will know if you are saying 'you're' or 'your'?
I could see the participle danging being used in a historical...sounds very formal and old fashioned...
What is a participle anyway?
LOL!
Don't hit me!
See! That "your" and "you're" shit is easy to miss when you're being a smart ass. Ha!
Think of it as an accusation. "YOU'RE PARTICIPLE DANGLING! WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU THINKING?!"
Explain to me how I used "you're" wrong in my smart ass sentence. Because I went through it again...and I don't see it.
See, a good critique group would catch these things before I hit publish and then I wouldn't have rabid grammarians slicing me to bits...
Oh, when I get published that is!
No, I don't see it as an accusation. But nice try you two.
This is exactly why I will not be an English teacher. Because of kids like you two. I'd made Ms. Yount look like the sainted Mother Theresa.
Isn't a dangling participle when you end a sentence with something like...with?
Been awhile since I dallied with the things. Though in my convoluted voice, which I've been told is compellingly literary I would probably do that...
You didn't. I did.
Or if you did, I didn't see it.
Were there some accusations being tossed around and I missed them? I'm trying to keep up and read/respond to every post, but I never dreamed this topic would take off the way it has.
And almost no talk of drinks or sex...how did that happen?
"With" is a preposition (or a conjunction).
Dangling participles are different.
Hitting you only with the definition, Chance, and a simplified one at that: a participle (as in dangling) is a verb form grammatically functioning as an adjective. Ex. Running from the grammar police, she fell into a vat of split infinitives.
("Running" is a participle--a non-dangling one).:)
And a few words in favor of line edits: None of us produce error-free texts, and it's always easier to spot errors in work with which you are not very familiar. One option to asking for a line editor's help is to read your ms in reverse. That forces you to read sentence by sentence, and you are more likely to see what is actually on the page.
I also didn't end my sentence with "with" either. Though if you want to make fun of my grammar--the "to" sentence I ranted is actually a prepositional phrase rather than a true sentence. Go to town.
That Ha! was aimed at Chance. :)
Dangling participles have to do with modifiers. You have to put the modifying phrase next to the word it modifies.
I found the book in the library with the blue cover.
I wrote this last comment BEFORE seeing that Janga had chimed in. Of course she showed the RIGHT way and I showed you the example of the WRONG way to do it. LOL!
Betcha none y'all thought I knew that.
I really shouldn't try to read these and listen to "Calls for Cthulhu" on YouTube...
Janga - I'm trying. Really... So, it isn't ending a sentence with a with?
I wonder what that is...
OK, I turned off YouTube...
"Calls to Cthulhu"...hilarious! Will go back there later!
Chance - Ending a sentence with the word "with" is ending a sentence with a preposition. No other special term for it. (I don't think. Waits to be corrected.)
Would you believe I have a degree in Language and Literature?
I blame it on the memory turning to mush as I deal with perimenapause and my husband's CPR, three years ago. I remember just enough to know something isn't quite right. I just can't pull the definition out of the mush...
Ending a sentence with a preposition (like with or from) is a different grammatical rule. (It's more "acceptable" now supposedly. Mostly I think going around asking people, "From whence do you hail?" is a tad too formal than "Where you from?" And it's more acceptable, esp in use of dialogue, because it's reflective of how people actually speak.
I loved Terri's dangling participle. *LOL* Good one.
Yep. Hence, the dangling.
Hellie - Thanks. One of the few things I always remember.
OH! The library with the blue cover... That I get! That's what it's called?
HA! When the descriptor is hanging out there and the reader is undertain what it attaches to... Got it!
Yes, I have my own writing dictionary... And I'm adding Terri's earlier bit about crit as you wish to be critted.
Not to throw more confusing terms out there, but I actually thought the library example is an example of "Misplaced modifier"--or is that the overarcing term, and dangling participles is a kind of misplaced modifier? That might be right...
This is crap from high school. I try to forget.
That is why I called it a descriptor. A word I think I made up...
http://www.writingcentre.uottawa.ca/hypergrammar/msplmod.html
Dangling Modifiers
The dangling modifier, a persistent and frequent grammatical problem in writing, is often (though not always) located at the beginning of a sentence. A dangling modifier is usually a phrase or an elliptical clause -- a dependent clause whose subject and verb are implied rather than expressed -- that functions as an adjective but does not modify any specific word in the sentence, or (worse) modifies the wrong word. Consider the following example:
Raised in Nova Scotia, it is natural to miss the smell of the sea.
The introductory phrase in the above sentence looks as if it is meant to modify a person or persons, but no one is mentioned in the sentence. Such introductory adjective phrases, because of their position, automatically modify the first noun or pronoun that follows the phrase -- in this case, "it." The connection in this case is illogical because "it" was not raised in Nova Scotia. You could revise the sentence in a number of ways:
For a person raised in Nova Scotia, it is natural to miss the smell of the sea. (the phrase no longer functions as an adjective)
Raised in Nova Scotia, I often miss the smell of the sea. (the phrase functions as an adjective but now automatically modifies "I," a logical connection)
A dangling modifier can also appear when you place an elliptical clause improperly:
Although nearly finished, we left the play early because we were worried about our sick cat.
The way this sentence is structured, the clause "Although nearly finished" illogically modifies "we," the pronoun directly following the clause. An easy way to rectify the problem is to re-insert the subject and verb that are understood in the elliptical clause:
Although the play was nearly finished, we left early because we were worried about our sick cat.
Okay, Terri's exampled was a misplaced modifier/clause.
The dangling thing usually involves a comma...
If this is the case, then I never dangle my modifiers. LOL! However, I may misplace a modifier, but I usually catch those too.
I thought this group was about pirates. Since when do they give a shit about grammar? :)
OK, a modifier is a descriptor, basically. But I lost participles in all this kerfuffle.
Good question, YoHo! WTH are we fussing about? LOL!
*whispers* Chance, I think the participle is the little three word phrase.
*blows raspberry at Yo'Ho
We talks about whatever we wants ta talk about. And grammar be very important ta pirates.
Though I be gettin' might thirsty and being a pirate, that be a natural state a' bein'.
(Ha, bet a dangled somethin' there!)
Rum runners for everyone still aboard!
Me young'un wants to learn ta act and sing. I be crappin me pants at the cost of tha lessons! hehe.
It was Sophie Littlefield at my local RWA group who said the 1 star reviews on Amazon are as important to sales as the 5 star.
I Do read the one star reviews. Very informative. Because often times the reason someone gave something one star Is exactly why I would give it five.
Why, when I type pirate-ese, does Mister Crab's voice sound in my head? Spongebob anyone? Since when is Mr Crab a pirate? Hmm, interesting.
Yo'Ho - Quit watching kids cartoons wit' the kids and the voices will go away. Always watch cartoons by yourself.
And sign the kids up for a chorus or choir...scouts is good, too.
The bartender always knows!
Julie - Yeah, I think that was her point. That it's the extremes that will draw an audience. Like a car accident, human nature is to look. Or news shows that always focus on all the bad news! LOL!
Sadly, LOL.
And yeah, I'm always interested as to why someone would take the time to actually post a 1 star review. When I worked at a bookstore, I was the anti-reviewer for a lot of people. If they saw I'd taped a positive review for a book they knew to avoid it.
They never let us tape 1 star reviews! They should have and then the same people who hated the books I liked would have bought them!
“Misplaced modifier”–or is that the overarcing term, and dangling participles is a kind of misplaced modifier? That might be right…
WTH? Is that code for ...
That guy shouldn‘t wear a Speedo (Misplaced modifier) cuz when he stands up and stretches ( that is the overarcing term) his testicles (dangling participles) is a kind of misplaced by the modifier aka the Speedo. That be right ?
Next time Just say " Eeewww. Don't look. But See that guy over there? Well..."
omg! we went from dangling participles to dangling testicles? LOL!
Speaking of car accidents ... your blog was a hit today, Chance. Well done.
And gosh ... I hardly got off course at all today! Focus. Thats what I say. Speaking of focusing (yes I'm speaking again) . "See that guy over there... Well don't look."
Don’t look. His bad Grammar is showing!
And that m'dear Yo'Ho' Riley, is why Pirates care about grammar!
LOL
I don't want to see any saggy balls, thanks. :) Actually, I'd prefer to see no balls. Not a big fan of the goofy things. LOL!!!
Focus.
Its all about the Focus1
Thank you, Julie.
I need to go and soak my eyeballs in rum, now.
haha. So, what do pirates eat for dinner? Fish?
Whatever we want, deary... And we eat desert first!
Chance is right. I just skipped dinner and had the last piece of the Girardelli chocolate cake I bought a couple days ago. Heavenly!
Hey -- the Capt. Cha just ate my message! That's what I get for being gone so long!
Capt. Cha is a hungry beast. I think 'e may be related ta the kraken...
I think he IS the Kraken! He's using an alias though. . .
Well, he's sneaky. Totally possible.
Still waiting for that haiku, Donnaroo...
;)
My name is torture
Waiting by the phone all hours
Yet, joy fills my heart
See?
Inch by inch closer
Climb one mountain at a time
Bright vista ahead
I guess I'm not really a pirate. I do care about grammar. I like to imagine agents and editors do too.
The writer part of us cares about the grammer. The pirate part...? Not so much.
I'm sure they do...not sure they care if we know what we're doing right as long as we are doing it right...
Man, I hope so. I can just see an editor/agent giving me a grammar term pop quiz. Busted!
Chance, those are beautiful haikus. How could I possibly add to them? I would tarnish their awesomeness by putting my efforts in the same vicinity. :)
wow. The conversation is still going...great topic Chance!
Oh, Janga, we are being facetious at the expense of your English teacher sensibilities. We do apologize. You must know by now we are all bluff. :)
Beautiful poetry, Chance!
One a' those things pirates do best...bluff. Much better than spillin' blood. If ya can bluff yer way ta seein' the surrender the booty, much safer.
I do know our writer half worries 'bout grammar. And gettin' it right.
Trust me, Janga...we care!
And thank ye, Donna...gotta practice fer when I'm waitin' ta hear back 'bout submissions!
"Janga, May I mambo dogface in the banana patch?" Be not afraid, Janga. Indeed a true Pirate knows the value of a grammatically correct sentence. A cutlass is good for the occasional slicing and dicing. But a well constructed statement? It can cut to the bone … slay a foe … rally the troops and win the day… without it’s Author breaking a sweat.
I too believe that agents and editors care about grammar. Because I, A Reader, care about grammar. I care because grammar is the backbone of communication. Without it there is no guarantee that what I think someone is trying to say is really what they think that they are saying. Confused? No. You’ve taught English so you know what I am referring too. Or is that to … hmm. Grammar is rather tricky. But communicate is trickier. Impossible even when a writer doesn’t use good grammar.
It is like someone writing “I don’t have nothing.” The reader sees that and thinks “Oh, lucky them. They have Everything!”
Not.
In the real world? With out rules there is chaos.
In the real writing world? With out grammar there is babble.
Misunderstanding.
If you want to Stand Out as a writer then you must master grammar. If you want to Stand Up … well then you can "May I mambo dogface in the banana patch?"*
My opinion.
* A line from a Steve Martin stand-up comedy album. The routine made fun of independently minded parents teaching their children to speak incorrectly. So that when the kids went to school, and they had to go to the bathroom, they would ask the teacher “ "May I mambo dogface…”
Of course I could never express my true feelings about grammar to Yo'Ho' Riley . Or she’ll be hittin’ me with a “A hoy thar, Julie! I object to yor Adjectival Noun. And yer Demonstrative , Demonstratives Interrogative, Negative, Person Personal, Possessive Pronouns Reciprocal, Reflexive Pronouns are peculiar!”
No. I will never breath a word about the importance of grammar to Yo'Ho' Riley . Never!
All I’ll say is “Damn the ( literary & grammatical) torpedoes. And full speed-ohs ahead!”
Chance - you'd be proud. I've been sitting at Starbucks for about 4 hours now writing my little heart out. :)
Hubby is taking a huge all day test a few hours away from home and I had to drive him. So, while he's testing I found the nearest Bucks and staked my claim at the table next to the electrical outlet.
I'm really digging it. LOL
I feel like a cheerleader...
May have to raid Sin's cabin fer those sparkly pom poms she saves fer when Ranger is aboard...
Yoohoo! Scapegoat! So very proud! Keep up the Starbuck's tradition and pen yer bestseller while flying high on caffeine!
4 hours! So-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-oooooo Good!
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