Wednesday, March 17, 2010
Writing the Male for the Female Sensibility
Most of the time I love being a chick.
I love that I can match my clothing without assistance. I love that I can have an hour conversation on the phone and at the end say it was a great talk but not know what we talked about. I love that I can cry at cheesy movies/commercials/books and no one thinks I’m weak, least of all me. And I really love that I can communicate my emotions without giving myself a brain aneurism.
Not that there aren’t some men out there who can perform the above tasks, but well, they aren’t the norm.
This being in touch with my girly side is great when I’m writing female characters. I can write emotions that make sense for a girl. I know how the average girl thinks. They think like I think.
But writing men? I get all hung up.
I spent the past weekend picking my husband’s brain about what makes men tick. When I say “picking” I mean, “prying it out of him with nagging and needling.”
It went thus:
Me: I’m having a hard time understanding how my hero should act.
Him: Aren’t you writing him? Just change it. (My DH is a “if a problem arises, just fix it” kind of fellow. You know. A GUY.)
Me: It’s not that I CAN'T change him; it’s that I don’t know HOW to change him.
Him: Huh?
Me: Like this. A guy doesn’t use as many words as most girls use. He says what he has to say, with as little words as possible.
Him: Right. (Point proven. One for my team.)
Me: And a guy generally doesn’t feel comfy with his emotions. Or he doesn’t think about them as much as a girl does.
Him: He doesn’t?
Me: I don’t know. Does he?
Him: What?
Me: *eye roll* Do guys think about their emotions as much as girls do?
Him: I’m not a girl. I don’t know.
Me: *patient sigh* Husband. Humor me.
Him: Hmm… Well, I probably don’t think about my emotions as much as you do.
Me: So what do you think about?
Him: *exasperated* Marnee. I don’t know. Stuff.
This from the most communicative man I’ve ever been in a relationship with.
The above conversation didn’t help me much to understand the inner workings of my hero’s mind. So I tried to apply what I know of men in an observational capacity. No overtalking. Check. Not as skilled at communicating as a woman, at least as a general. Check. A fix-it mentality about everything from broken toasters to complex life issues. Check.
That’s probably a pretty good start. But then I have to worry about getting said “male characterization” across for a generally female audience. Because in a romance, we don’t want the average beer-swilling, thinking-about-sex guy. We want the Prince Charmings. Believable Prince Charmings.
What we have is the complexity of writing the male character to appeal to the female fantasy. No easy task indeed.
So, what suggestions have you guys got? What differences do you find between your male and female characters? How have you found success writing the “other”? What female authors write believable men?
*********************
Disclaimer: No boy belittlement intended.
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77 comments:
Well, yes...even my man wants to fix everything. But he's also a real man and he talks... So, well...I solve the problem of writing believable men by looking at the men in my life.
Dad? Not much for talking, but he felt deeply. Same with my bro. I write the men I know? And well, I don't know many of the single syllable men.
Not a lot of help. Sorry. ;)
Now, I know of a male author who writes great women! Charles de Lint! If a guy can write women, women can write guys. Hang in there!
That was great. Sounds like the conversations I have with my husband trying to understand the inner workings of a male.
Oh my god, I can picture that conversation perfectly. He was holding a playstation controller the entire time, too, wasn't he?
I think JR Ward is the master of the male POV. Pamela Clare does excellently as well.
Though it's funny, I recently read a thriller, with a male protagonist, written by a man, and all I could think (when the hero "felt his eyes fill with tears" for the fifth time) was "geez, what a girl!"
I think the hardest thing for me to remember when writing men (and currently Josephine who thinks more like a guy than a girl) is *not* to write introspection. I (and many other girls) think things over, over and over again. I go over every conversation, trying to figure out what I should have said, or what they meant, or why I feel the way I feel.....
Yeah, guys don't do that, I don't think *g*. Rob says exactly what he thinks, when he thinks it, and then moves on to the next thing. And god forbid anything break *g*
OMG, are you saying the guys I write are actually girls? Aaaugh! LOL
Well, I guess I'm writing men the way they WANT to be, even if they don't know it yet. :)
I am NOT comfy with emotion. Ever. Emotion makes me VERY uncomfortable and look for the nearest exit. But with that being said, I still have issues writing men. Hence why I write in first person female POV. lol
Marn, the convo with the DH was hilarious. I have convos with the DH like that all the time.
Husband, if a woman clobbered you over the head with your own cell phone, do you think it would knock you out?
*giving the look* WTF are you yammering on about now? Why would you hit me with my own cell phone?
I didn't SAY ME! I meant like a random woman.
Why would a random woman hit me?
Oh I dunno, cause you're a jerk? You looked at her wrong? You tried to give her a prostitution smuggling ring?
What is that blog teaching you?!
*me blinking innocently* Obviously not to write about prostitution smuggling rings and beating people over the head with cell phones.
Love the conversation. Sounds like he was more worried about giving a wrong answer than expressing any emotions. Funny how the married man tends to be jumpy that way. LOL!
I think Hal hit it but I'd change introspection to over-analysis. I do think men ponder things, even if it's their March Madness bracket picks. They certainly ponder what the hell women are thinking, they just don't usually come up with an answer (Any more than we come up with answers to what the hell they're thinking.)
My plan is to write real guys who happen to say the right thing from time to time. Not always. And they may bumble through it, but as long as we write in those moments that make the female reader go "aaaawwwwww", we're good.
And I think the guy should win an argument now and then. This is fiction after all. ;)
I can totally picture Mr. Bailey's face while you were having this convo with him, Marn. Exasperated, much? lol
We all know I'm going to say that Lisa Kleypas does a great job in her contemps of writing guys. I think Tara Janzen does as well. And Kim Harrison.
My rule of thumb with writing guys is less is more. I tend to make guys more expressive with their body language than with their words.
Ooer, yes, Pamela Clare and JR Ward are fantastical at the male POV.
And the typos are still with me. *sigh*
Now you two are making me wonder. Are Clare and Ward that good at writing men, or are they that good at writing me for the "female sensibility" as Marn puts it.
And this will sound redundant, but Crusie writes men amazingly well. Real guys. They say stupid stuff, think about feelings without *really* making it about feelings. She just has it down.
And they feed their heroines. Which is awesome. LOL!
Hm, with both authors I feel the men are men. They are the assholes you pass on the streets, the ones you sit beside in the bar, the ones who keep the streets safe so you can walk them. Of course, with all romance novels, they turn into the PC's we all want them to be. That's just how romance novels are. While I expect men at the end of the fairy tale at page 400 to behave in a total guy fashion, no one wants to read that.
I think Tara Janzen does a wonderful job with leaving them who they were before the meet. They are sensitive to their wives/partners but their new life doesn't revolve around them. In some novels that's what it feels like to me. The woman says jump and the idiot who just married/ended up with her says, "Certainly honey, how high and for how long?"
Well, I guess I’m writing men the way they WANT to be, even if they don’t know it yet
Oh To funny. Gosh, I think that Donna has found her mission in life!!
Chance - My Dh is actually pretty good about expressing himself. I think this convo frustrated him because it meant he had to make the jump from him to a fictional character in my head. I think that was just a little much for him. LOL!!
And I think we all can write the other side, I just wonder what the key to doing it is.... :)
Reena - Haha! Do we all have these kind of conversations with the men in our lives? LOL!!
Hal - Yes, he did in fact have a playstation controller in his hand. In his defense, I was writing during naptime, so he did need to entertain himself. LOL!
I think that's where I am, kind of. Not too much over-analysis in guy thinking. And that say what they're thinking thing. I agree; I don't think my DH has much of a filter. I always know what's up with him. :)
Bo'sun, I agree with the over-analysis vs introspection. I think what they think about might be different than what we think about. I don't know many guys who spend a lot of time over thinking how they look or if their outfit accents all their favorable attributes. But I know my DH spends a LOT of time thinking through next years Eagles lineup. :)
Wait, you're going to have a guy win a fight? Don't draw your reader out with messy slipups like that!! We all know that doesn't happen in real life!! LOL!!!
A pause in my comments folks. I have to take my kid to the doctor. He's been a sickie this week. I'll be back a little bit later to chat more.
:( Sorry...
I have to agree with Terri, men do ponder things. Always Trying to make sense of things.
Unfortunately Things often appear to Not Make sense.
That's why they usually look so confused! (IMO)
My DH is always trying to figure out what's going on in my head. Its very annoying. Mostly because he knows Exactly what I am thinking when I think that No one can tell what I'm thinking!
I think the hardest thing for me to remember when writing men (and currently Josephine who thinks more like a guy than a girl) is *not* to write introspection.
I *BREAK* this rule all the time with Adam. OMG, I'm horrible! (This is why I prefer being in 1st person female, it keeps it from happening!
I mean, I *KNOW* they don't have nearly the introspection--not even CLOSE--to what an average woman does, and I have doing stuff that's more "girly" then. Damn. I'm going to have to cut out 2/3 of his crap. Damnit. There goes my word count.
I mean, I don't have him staring out windows and his eyes filling up with tears (I'd SO would have said, "What a girl!" at that book too!), but I do have him obsessing a bit of why he did something. Or said something. Or what the hell is SHE doing.
Authors who do good men dialogue. Hmmm.
Julie Garwood. They grunt a lot; they're stoic, say little, and what they do say is usually to annoy the woman. Couldn't be any truer than that.
Jennifer Crusie. The dream guy who banters, has a bit of introspection, but still keeps it guy-like enough that we don't think he's secretly flaming.
Lisa Kleypas. Okay, maybe I just secretly WISH men thought and behaved this way, but whatever, I'm still listing her.
Oooh Marnee , I hope that he feels better soon1
I do think men ponder things, even if it’s their March Madness bracket picks.
Yes, this is sadly true.
Marnee, you managed to have me laughing hysterically and thinking deeply at the same time. Men? Hmm men … Men are like the Mississippi River. They are deep. They can be shallow. They tend to flow a certain way. Run a predicable course for years and years … then one day they over flow their banks and you get swept away. The Mississippi flows where it pleases , does as it pleases. It is a headstrong, powerful, gentle, slow moving, muddy river.
Men and the Mississippi. They are both Muddy Waters. Murky. Mysterious. So it is impossible to really know what’s going on beneath the surface of either until you dive in.
They only thing I know for sure about Men is that they are predictable in their unpredictability. Just like the Mighty Mississippi River.
Really the only advice I can give you Marnee is to don’t try to over analyze muddy waters. Go with the flow …your writer’s instincts flow and ask yourself “What kind of Mississippi is my man?”
Sorry the littlest pirate isn't feeling well. Hope he feels better soon!
One day, Lil Ford, he woke up all sicky, sicky,
One day, Lil Ford, he woke up all sicky, sicky,
Get him to the doctor all quickie, quickie,
Pirates need their mom.
Then, Lil Ford, he took him a nappie, nappie,
Then, Lil Ford, he took him a nappie, nappie,
Then he woke up all happy, happy,
Pirates need their rest.
Later, Lil Ford, he ran out and played and played
Later, Lil Ford, he ran out and played and played
In the warm sunshine, he stayed and stayed
Pirates need their sun.
Donna said: Well, I guess I’m writing men the way they WANT to be, even if they don’t know it yet
Julie said: Oh To funny. Gosh, I think that Donna has found her mission in life!!
LOL -- well, if it is my mission, I guess I have no choice but to accept it!
Well, and tracking down the missing Hotties. SOMEBODY has to do it. :)
Sorry to hear Lil' Pirate is sick. Here's to the bubblegum stuff making him all better. (My kiddo would have gulped that stuff if I'd let her.)
And I didn't say I'd make him right, I just said I'd let him win one. :) My heroine tends to be unreasonable and stubborn. (Sound like anyone we know?) Hero is quite reasonable. Annoys her to no end.
Nora Roberts creates great male character. She's particularly good at guy speech and brothers and friends. I agree that Crusie is great, as is SEP. I think Lisa Kleypas is excellent, Hellie, in both her historicals and contemporaries. Loretta Chase's historical heroes ring true to me, and they are all individuals.
Sex, sports, and why it isn't his fault may be the typical guy think, I don't really want to read or write "typical guys." I think there's a difference in credible and typical. I like to think my characters are like the guy in Brad Paisley's "I'm Still a Guy."
When you see a deer,
You see Bambi,
And I see antlers up on the wall.
When you see a lake,
You think picnics,
And I see a large mouth up under that log.
You’re probably thinking that you’re gonna change me.
In some ways, well, maybe you might
Scrub me down, dress me up,
But no matter what,
Remember I’m still a guy.
When you see a priceless French painting,
I see a drunk naked girl.
You think that riding a wild bull sounds crazy,
And I’d like to give it a whirl.
Love makes a man do some things he ain’t proud of,
And in a weak moment I might
Walk your sissy dog,
Hold your purse at the mall,
But remember I’m still a guy.
And I’ll pour out my heart,
Hold your hand in the car,
Write a love song that makes you cry.
Then turn right around
Knock some jerk to the ground
‘Cause he copped a feel as you walked by.
I can hear you now talking to your friends
Saying, "Yeah, girls, he’s come a long way
From dragging his knuckles and carrying a club
And building a fire in a cave.
But when you say a backrub means only a backrub,
Then you swat my hand when I try.
Well, now what can I say?
At the end of the day,
Honey, I’m still a guy.
These days there’s dudes getting facials,
Manicured, waxed, and botoxed,
But with deep spray-on tans and creamy lotioney hands,
You can’t grip a tackle box.
With all of these men lining up to get neutered,
It’s hip now to be feminized.
I don’t highlight my hair;
I’ve still got a pair.
Yeah, honey, I’m still a guy.
My eyebrows ain’t plucked.
There's a gun in my truck.
Thank God, I’m still a guy.
Marnee, I hope your little guy gets well quickly. Doctors and mom's TLC can work wonders.
Perhaps I deal mostly with "sensitive new age guys..."
;)
Hope the little pirate gets his sea legs back!
I love those lyrics. And I love that guys are guys.
I just don't like it so much when guys think that "being a guy" somehow exempts them from being a member of the human race. LOL
Sorry about the lil pirate in the sick bay. :(
I'm back! The lil' pirate has an ear infection. That was my best guess. Poor baby's been waking me up every night this week and last night he would cough then whine and whine and cry and cry. :( Breaks a mama's heart.
A little medicine and he'll be back on top of the world.
I'm off to catch up on comments.
Donna - I'm sorry I missed you above! I am sure you're not writing girls! I was generalizing, don't panic!
Sin - I think you're right; when it comes to guys, less is more. As Julie says later, I don't think it's so much that they don't think of stuff, maybe, as that they don't overdo it.
I haven't read Tara Janzen, but I'll check her out.
Bo'sun - Gah! I'm still a Cruisie virgin. I really need to pick up her books.
Alright, Marn, your baby shower present is going to include a Crusie book. Or two.
Nothing worse than a sick baby, Marn. Doesn't matter how old they are but when they're that little it is a little harder on mom! Hope he'll be on the mend soon.
I'm in agreement with those SEP, Crusie, Kleypas and Nora fans. I think they do men extremely well.
I'm not really sure how I write them yet. I'm still getting that all straight in my mind. I think I tend to do what Hellie does and give them too many "girlie" introspection moments, though.
I do know from experience with the men in my life that none of them are evil or mean. They are just unbelievably stupid when it comes to talking before thinking and can be the most politically incorrect people on earth. Especially when they get a few drinks in them.
Marn -- I didn't think you meant I was writing girls. LOL Not at all. So don't worry!
I have been told my hero in my latest book is "too perfect" -- LOL -- so I KNOW I'm writing an idealized version of men (okay, okay, more like a "wish list" LOL), but that's what I like, so that's what I write. :)
Julie - I think you're suggesting there's a bit of a chicken/egg conflict between the sexes. Is it that men don't get us (that we're "un-gettable") and therefore, their confusion is our fault--- OR--- is it that men are incapable of understanding anything more complex than football run patterns and therefore cause our frustration?
I think it's probably both. I know plenty of women who are un-gettable and who create their own confusion and I know plenty of men who are incapable of deep thought. I sometimes wonder who our species has perpetuated. Well, not really. Sex is fun.
That's one of my favorite Paisley songs of all time. Where guys are guys, but good guys--and it's fun and sweet. (And not new age! *LOL*)
Oh, I forgot to mention SEP! I loved WHAT I DID FOR LOVE--the hero was HILARIOUS! I thought he was a guy-guy all the way!
I do have to say, I think there's a big difference in writing a guy from a male POV (i.e., inside the man's head), and writing a guy from a female POV. It's much easier to make them a "man of few words" if you're not going to get inside their head *g*
Dude. Bram was definitely a guy. I loved him!
Hellie - I always want to have my heroes wonder why women do stuff, wonder why about a lot of things. But I end up cutting it. Or Hal ends up cutting it. :) The benefits of having a CP who writes amazing alphas. If not, my heroes would be entirely too touchy feely.
I love Kleypas' heroes too. I don't even know if they're realistic. They're just great.
Julie - I love the Mississippi analogy. That is the truth, isn't it? I need to think about that a little more. :)
Hells - thanks for the song for my Ford. He does need a nap right about now, that's certain.
Janga - I LOVE Brad Paisley and I love that song. That is definitely the truth. Frankly, those guys who highlight their hair and pluck their brows scare me. I'm afraid they'd criticize my hygiene regiment. I can just hear it... "she's alright looking but man, she needs a pedicure." *shudders*
Bram! That was his name! (That scene in the porn shop! "You have trust issues." *ROTFLMAO*)
I admit, I think I do too much introspection with my hero--but I think I do a pretty good job making him the smart one. He wins arguments occasionally. He can start an argument and know he's starting it. And his POV reveals the flaws of the other characters. (Whereas when you're in the POV of the other characters, they're not normally focusing on their character flaws. Physical flaws, maybe, but not character ones.)
And when I say "pretty good job" I mean, compared to how I used to write male POV. I used to make them a lot dumber.
Donna says: "I just don’t like it so much when guys think that “being a guy” somehow exempts them from being a member of the human race."
I think this is a major problem with both sexes. Nothing excuses us from being decent.
Bo'sun says: "And I didn’t say I’d make him right, I just said I’d let him win one" LOL! Oh good then. All remains right in the world. LOL!!
Did you see the Marriage Ref a week or two ago? One of the guys was a "metrosexual"--and the panel voted for the husband, because the alternative to have a husband with no hygiene was unthinkable. *LOL*
But overplucked men are unnerving. *LOL* Too high-maintenance. I don't want a man more high-maintenance than I am.
Bo'sun - I think Cruisie books would fall into the best baby shower present ever.
Irish says: "I do know from experience with the men in my life that none of them are evil or mean. They are just unbelievably stupid when it comes to talking before thinking and can be the most politically incorrect people on earth. Especially when they get a few drinks in them."
I agree with all of this. I don't think the men in my life are evil or intentionally mean either. But most of them suffer from the same ailments as yours. I wonder how that could play out in my MS.... Hmmm.....
ditto here. The other day, Rob did something that pissed me off, so I threw the remote control at him. He bursts out with: "Don't throw that remote! That was expensive! *You* on the other hand--"
Then he stopped. A complete dead stop, with his mouth hanging open, as if he'd just realized how that sentence was going to end.
Then started backpedaling...FAST. Freaking hilarious!
Who's Bram?
Donna - I think writing a wish list character is fine. I think we all kind of do that, don't we? We want every happy at the end. That's a big wish list.
Hal says: "I think there’s a big difference in writing a guy from a male POV (i.e., inside the man’s head), and writing a guy from a female POV. It’s much easier to make them a “man of few words” if you’re not going to get inside their head"
(I need to figure out italics. For reals.)
I agree Hal. But wow, that's a big topic. Now we're adding writing a man, for a women's perspective, told from the male's head.
My head hurts.
Hellie said:
He can start an argument and know he’s starting it.
So far, my guys end up in arguments they never saw coming. Now I'm wondering how this will progress further into the book. Nate doesn't want to fight all the time, but Emma seems intent on ripping into him for any given reason. At first he's too shell shocked and trying not to make it worse, then he eventually fights back.
That's not un-guy-like, is it?
Bram's the hero on SEP's "What I did for Love" (which I was pretty sure was a thinly veiled swap for *Brad*, as in, the Pitt variety). But I still adored him.
I haven't seen Marriage Ref. I avoid reality TV like the plague.
that sounds pretty right-on to me, Ter! As in, "shit, how'd I get into this mess? How do I get back out?" Poor guy *g*
Marnee, I think that men “get us” more then we think. But they don’t want Us to know that because then we will hold then accountable to that knowledge. Did I just confuse you?
How about an example. My DH knows that I like sappy movies, but if he admits it then he’s afraid that he’ll get stuck watching them all the time. But then every so often he’ll rent one “and pretend” that he didn’t know that it was “A Julie Movie”. Men. Sneaky. Smart. And subtle about it! Brats.
Guys are simply good at hiding behind their Guynessness.
Hal - LOL!! I can see George doing that. LOL!! "Don't throw that remote!" LOL!!
And I think that's very guy like, Ter.
Jules, that's perfect. My DH does stuff like that, but he hides it too. Someone said this movie'd be good. Or, the girls are work said this restaurant had great cheesecake. :) LOL!! You're right. That is smart. And sneaky.
Thanks for the re-assurances. Since I write mostly Beta men, I always worry about wondering too close to the line. Though Nate has more alpha in him than I've written before.
I've experience the polar opposites of men *getting* me and it's not necessarily pleasant on either end. My ex-H still doesn't know or understand a thing about me. Yet I can predict what he will say and do days, often weeks, in advance. Much to my child's amazement.
My ex-BF knew me better than I did. And while it was a great improvement over what I'd known, it was also off-putting to have someone know you that well.
My friend, who loves her husband dearly but despairs occasionally of his communication skills, says men suffer from emotional apathy. (I'm not sure they are "suffering" from it. They just don't care. Which, ha ha, is the problem.)
Christopher Moore, who writes HILARIOUS stuff, doesn't really like reading books written by women. WHY? Because things that are important to women aren't necessarily important to him. I totally understand this. I read very little fiction written by a man for the same reason (in reverse.) It's why I don't like Tolkien.
It's just DIFFERENT.
But as Johnny Horton says, "Hooray, for that little difference hooray...." *LOL*
I think most men don't want to start fights. They wonder what the hell just happened. But Adam doesn't have anything more to lose--he's already lost his wife, so it's fine to fight with her. Why not?
And once you're broke up, I've noticed they don't care if they start a fight with you.
Hmm, I wonder if that has anything to do with the probability of getting laid? I mean, if she's already broken up with you, she's not going to sleep with you regardless, so why not be a dick? lol!
I can get behind that reasoning. My ex certainly has no problem attacking me out of no where. It's like fucking sniper fire sometimes.
I think another I notice about guys is that they are not so much vacant as they don't share themselves with everyone. I know a lot of guys, my DH for one, who have a lot of misconceptions floating around about them. eg. They're selfish, egotistical, spoiled, drunks, prejudice, etc. etc.
It bothered me when I first started dating him that all of these people thought he was this useless irresponsible playboy. When I confronted him about it he said that as long as I knew differently he really could care less what everyone else thought. And he meant it. And I know several other guys like that too. It's like they have this once persona for the world and then another one for the people who matter (and as he says willing to look beyond the superficial).
I'm getting depressed...if what everyone feels about men and what makes a man a man is reality... I'm married to woman.
Damn.
Oh, and I loved Bram, just for that reason!
Chance - These are generalizations. And as I just told you, a mature man whose been with a woman for more than half his life is going to act very different from a younger man whose only known the woman for a matter of days.
Hell, I'm amazed at men who are avid readers. I know they're out there, but I've yet to meet one in person.
Irish said It’s like they have this once persona for the world and then another one for the people who matter (and as he says willing to look beyond the superficial).
I know exactly what you mean. My dh is the same way.
Chance - a couple of us are married to the quintessential alpha male. They fit the generalities. Thank god not all men do!
Also, my hubs (and Marn's too) is in his early 30's. Men think very differently at that age than later in life, when they're more intelligent (and, hopefully, less stubborn. They do get less stubborn, right? Somebody tell me they get less stubborn!)
I'm right there with you on the typos, Ter!
And Chance, I think there are more Betas out there than alphas. It is just that the squeeky wheel gets the oil!
My dad just turned 64. Stubborn as the day is long.
But he does help with the laundry now.
Bosun, the readers are in the science fiction genre. Sorry. Or thriller. My brother, who is 60, reads all the time. He took his Tolkien books to basic training when he joined the Marines. He reads horror, science ficiton, fantasy...long series... Hey, he's a natural born reader.
OK, so if maturity results in men who are more like my husband, then I'm on the right track writing Silverton heros and heroines!
Honestly, my DH is a child in a lot of ways. Especially the way he entertains himself, but when it comes to communicating when it's important? He's there all the way. He's also an engineer, which really is an entirely new subject to deal with!
I appreciated the disclaimer Marnee ..... gave me the courage to delve deeper. What a fun blog!
Afraid I don't take much interest in the heroes of romance. Its the heroines that I go for and if not rapidly captivated I bin them and move on.
I didn't really recognise the descriptions of men in the posts, though I only had time to skim. Most conformed to the usual caricatures IMO and consequently are way of beam.
I'm afraid you authors have a lot more studying to do if you really want to access the male 'inner self' rather than the befuddled inarticulate excuse for a brain that often emerges in the presence of glamorous sexy writers carrying notepads and pens and firing questions.
If you bring him a coffee with his slippers and gently open the conversation with a positive opinion on current affairs or the latest art exhibition at the Tate, or even the resolution of the John Terry England captaincy issue, then I suggest that he may gradually open up and amaze you with the depth of his thinking and the broad range of his interests.
You have to dig deep to reach a man's inner sanctum where his soul diffuses his thoughts and his creativity bubbles like champagne.
Perhaps there is a man somewhere teaching a course on this. Only a man could sensibly advise on the workings of a man's mind and even then he would never reveal those most intimate workings. Its obvious really and reassuring..... the mystery is safe! :D
Like I said ... M-I-S-S-I-S-S-P-P-I ... Stands for men are Mysterious Muddy Waters! And they will never reveal those most intimate workings.of their water ways aka their minds.
A man never reveals his secrets.
Not with out seduction. And really? When it comes to seduction … it is often hard to tell who is really seducing who. The seductress? Or the man who is enticing her to seduce him?
If you bring him a coffee with his slippers and gently open the conversation with a positive opinion on current affairs or the latest art exhibition at the Tate, or even the resolution of the John Terry England captaincy issue, then I suggest that he may gradually open up and amaze you with the depth of his thinking and the broad range of his interests.
*LOL* Q, I love you, but this is just too hilarious for words.
First, that I would bring my honey slippers and coffee so I could "pick his brain." (Though I appreciate your clarifying that if you want to know what a man is thinking, don't ambush the poor bastard. It's no wonder we think they're not thinking of anything at all if all our data comes from ambushing them and expecting them to answer off the cuff. Which few people actually do well.)
But then the second half all regarded things we wouldn't have in a book anyway because rarely if ever does any of that matter to women. Which goes to prove Chris Moore's statement that women and men just value different things to use their intellect on. I do appreciate though the idea that you guys might not always be pondering the inner depths of World of Warcraft though. That does give me hope.
When it comes to seduction … it is often hard to tell who is really seducing who. The seductress? Or the man who is enticing her to seduce him?
No kidding with this statement. *LOL*
Actually, I've done some research on how men's communication styles differ from women, and it's not true that men speak less than women. In fact, studies have shown in almost all situations, men speak more than women. (As much as 2-1 in many contexts.)
And in almost all those situations, if you have people view a video tape afterwards, they agree that the women spoke more.
I've also found in my research that men are really extremely insecure. No joke, in general, men are scared that they'll be exposed as a phony, that they don't know how to do their jobs and that they don't look competent. But since we women read romance and don't generally know that, I don't know if showing that would be totally believable in fiction ;) . (Could be a direct relation to the persona thing already mentioned.)
Also, almost all men would rather be respected than loved (if they were forced to choose between the two). So the ultimate insult would be for a heroine to disrespect him, esp. in front of other guys.
Luv you too Hellie. I know you're brilliant and all but I fear that you demonstrate rather shallow assumptions with:
But then the second half all regarded things we wouldn’t have in a book anyway because rarely if ever does any of that matter to women.
What makes you think that the readership is predominantly feminine? Thats what men want you to think! They would never tell you what they had hidden behind the financial times! Like Julie said: A man never reveals his secrets.
Anyway I wouldn't mind betting that Janga would be interested in the inner depths and I doubt that she is that atypical in this regard. :wink:
Jordan I hope your research didn't involve firing a lot of psychology based questions that you expected to generate honest and insightful replies!
If you ask any man how often he has sex the answer will always exceed once a week.... at least if he's normal! :lol:
Dear Q, I'm fascinated by inner depths. :)Seriously.
Re: Men and Reading
I know lots of men who are readers. Of course, many of them are English professors, so perhaps they aren't typical. But my brother, who is in most ways the stereotypical good ole Southern boy, reads almost as much as I do. He even reads Linda Lael Miller and Nora Roberts (but, he assures me, not the old NRs that are "nothing but that romance s___).
I can see why a guy would read Linda Lael Miller novels. She writes a guy-guy. And in a good way.
I don't know many male readers. My brother does; but my brother is an idiot and doesn't count. Some of the coffee dates I've been on with male readers--they only read sci-fi fiction and thought what I read was garbage. And told me so. Repeatedly. (In the mere hour we had coffee.) When my Deer Hunter told me he reads--and had always read, I nearly fell off whatever I was sitting on. Then I said something like, "You're shitt'n me." We're really charming together, really.
Q, if more men read romance novels than admit it, then butter my butt and call me a biscuit but I haven't seen it. And I'm from the Show Me State, so someone is going to have to show me before I'll believe it. Think of it as scientific method. All my scientific proofs have resulted in answers that men are like the generalized version above. On the whole. Not all the time, but most. With a few quirks here and there to try to throw us off course.
Show me the data (and video) then of men being this other way--the way you say they are. Where are your proofs? I understand YOU are one of the data, but you're going to need more than a data of 1 to prove your point.
I don't mind being called shallow. I am. I don't have a scientific mind or willingness to keep researching the same data hoping for different results. To me, if it walks and quacks like a duck... Blame the educational school system I grew up in. Totally awful at promoting anything positive about science and learning.
Well, my bro is a reader, as I said. He's not an idiot or a knuckle scraper. Isn't always the best with expressing deep thought and spends way too much time focused on television commercials...
But the man reads like a fiend.
Jordon, that is fascinating! I wonder why we assume women talk more? how interesting. I could see how insecurity might be hard to show, but it's a fascinating tidbit. The need for respect, though, that can definitely be shown!
My research involved reading the aggregated results of hundreds of anonymous surveys, studies (both where the subjects knew they were being observed and not), and face-to-face interviews. And considering what they admitted about insecurity, respect and love (and if you'll note, I didn't even mention sex, although there was plenty of data on that—not about the frequency, but about that touchy-feely-emotional-need crap), I can only assume either these researchers managed to find hundreds of men who have no self esteem and want to make all men look bad, or they were actually (gasp) telling the truth.
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