Thursday, March 4, 2010
Great-Genre-Expectations
This sorta ties into last months blog on Alt. vs. Actual, insomuch as I want to meander about what readers expect from a genre. And how these expectations must either be met or dealt with. (I warned ye I wasn’t done wit’ this topic!)
I’ve been reading a book on screenwriting and the author talks about what movie goers expect to see when they pick a particular movie to see, emotion-wise. And I get that it’s different for each genre. And it isn’t always expectation, it’s what we hunger for on a particular day. What we need. (I’m a big movie goer and often find it easier to discuss plot, genre, etc, with reference to movies.)
For example, some are easy. You expect (need) to laugh? Go see a comedy or pick up a book with comical aspects. To experience courage? Go see action adventure, an epic adventure, etc. Love and longing fulfilled? A romance. Want to be scared? A thriller. Want to see cleverness? A mystery. You don’t get these, you are disappointed.
You get something very different? Well, what disappoints for a particular genre? What hauls you out of your ability to suspend belief?
Some are obvious. Romance readers expect either a HEA or a HFN. Mystery readers expect a solution. Thriller readers expect the resolution of tension. Fantasy readers expect imaginative worlds or a mythology they can frolic in. Scifi readers expect some science fact… Erotica readers want…well, we all know what they want!
Historical readers speak a special language and not using these terms will haul them out of the book. If you didn’t use them, as a writer, you would likely disappoint your reader. For example, a regency reader knows the vocabulary. Words like pinz nez (those little glasses), reticule (a small purse), chatelaine (a small women’s tool kit, thimbles, sewing needles, scissors), pelisse (a slip)…they already know all of these and so using them is part of the genre. All of the fabric choices, the dress terms, the term of the aristocracy…all part of the genre.
They are expected and they signal authenticity.
When I began reading authors recommended by several other pirates, many of them were regency or historical authors. And I do not have the vocabulary for this genre. It drove me crazy to be pulled out of the story by words I didn’t understand. Where was the dictionary for a newbie like me? The characters were interesting, the story was interesting…and blam! Terms I didn’t get and no fast way to find out what they meant.
I sort of knew this would happen when I stepped into the worlds these authors were writing. Still frustrated me. But I’m flexible, so I just slid past them and kept reading. (Good authors can rise above the reader’s not knowing, as long as the reader is willing to keep reading…)
When I read science fiction, I know there are going to be all sorts of science terms I’m going to flounder on. But the good scifi author finds a way to communicate with those who don’t have the science knowledge.
Here is where it gets tricky. It is my supposition that some readers are more flexible than others. Some genres are more open for a loose interpretation of facts. Some readers are flexible, some aren’t.
A paranormal reader may or may not be turned off by certain things. A historical reader is going to flip out over toying with history. My dear friend, Jane-o, reads historical. Mostly historical. She writes historical. I can take it or leave it. (I don’t write it, other than history I can totally muck about with, twisting ‘real’ into a fantasy.)
But the argument we got into regarding steampunk made me realize how stubborn she was when it came to evaluating genres. To her, it’s just sh*t. The idea of toying so much with history, to make steam the prevalent method of industrial discovery, to mix paranormal with actual history, to change the outcomes of major historical events, such as the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, World Wars…it totally offenses her sensibilities. She simply cannot suspend her connection to what is real and what is not to appreciate the intricate worlds steampunk authors create.
She’s kinder to me and my meddling, but she knows me! ;-)
(Granted Jane-o was a bit put out by the lesser number of historical panels scheduled at RT, and resented the allocation of time to steampunk. Time she felt would be better spent on purely historical panels. She has a point, there are very few historical panels. Sorry, Jane-o!)
Any toying with realty hauls her right out of the story. And I see this with a lot of readers. Now my mentor is knowledgeable, knows her genre right and left, knows the ins and out of writing romance, erotica, history…but toss in a bare hint of magic without complete explanation of it and she is frustrated.
Most fantasy readers expect to take a great deal on faith. To read everything explained would frustrate them. They expect to discover these tidbits as they go along. Tidbits that are world oriented, you understand. Not character oriented. (We all expect to discover characters as we read.)
My mentor was open enough to admit that she could be finding things bothersome that wouldn’t bother a more well-read fantasy reader. I’ve had me sis read the same book and sis had no difficulties whatsoever with the world oriented tidbits. Sis expects to suspend belief until it all dances before her eyes. When one knows the world, as in historicals, any deviation is going to draw attention to itself. And piss someone off.
Every genre has its expectations. Every reader wants these expectations met. I believe problems arise when readers take a step into something different and carry those same expectations with them. When the cross pollination of genres take some/leave some, readers are often left wondering where certain elements have gone.
And let’s face it, the specialization of genres is the flipside of this coin. There are specific target audiences/writers that leave no room for toying with any elements.
What do you see as the expectations for the genre you read? Or write? Do you know of any authors that dance the fine line between genres and manage to satisfy expectations? How do you write to satisfy an ever-changing public, more and more demanding? (Not to mention publishers?)
Off subject, what would a modern day chatelaine contain for you?
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76 comments:
This blog may win the pirate prize for most questions ever asked in one post. :)
I write straight contemp with a humorous bent and readers expect to have their heart strings tugged out their ears. Or at least I do when I pick up a book. The black moment needs to be solidly black and the resolution has to be satisfying.
No idea if I can pull this all off, but I'm trying.
You've been mentioning steampunk to me for a while and I didn't know exactly what it was so I looked it up. I love those kinds of shows and movies. Never knew this is what's it's called. I say, as long as everyone is in on the joke (for lack of a better word) then it works.
And anyone who grew up watching and loving Wild Wild West couldn't help but be open to steampunk. For me, minus the vamps and such. :)
Hm... genre expectations. Let's see.
I generally read Historicals (Georgian/Regency/Victorian) or Paranormals (and I trend away from 1st person paranormals or the HFN kind).
As for expectations in these two genres.... I think your on as for Historicals. At least in the historical details. I also think that most historicals (thus far) have been light, at least in execution. There aren't a lot of dark historicals out there, though there are always the exceptions.
Paranormals.... I think that there's a lot of room in paranormals for light, dark, snark, etc. There's just a glut of paranormal creatures. Vampires, werewolves, etc. And when people breath traditional mythos with those characters, they have to walk that line, not to offend expectations but to do something fresh.
Marn - That seems to be the question for every writer. How do you write what everyone expects and still create something new and fresh?
It's a cunundrum!!
My chatelaine would DEFINITELY include lip gloss. LOL About 14 different ones, so I can pick the one that fits my mood that day!
As for genre expectations. . . if the back cover of a book takes too long to explain the world-building, it goes back on the shelf. I want to get immersed in the story and characters, and if I'm required to go through a lot of in-depth information about the world these folks live in, I'm lost! I can't remember it all!
So, Ter...if the contemp you were reading veered off into some real deep territory, like exploring the life and death decisions of an aging relative with health problems...then it would break the expectation for keeping things more simply frothy. And piss you off.
Now, there are movies like Steel Magnolias, that flies all over the place...makes one laugh, cry, deals with light hearted frolics and then the deepest darkest of subjects. It made for an interesting movie to consider because one would go to the show expecting one thing, getting a hell of a lot more than bargained for and, mostly, being unable to really complain!
Yeah, Wild Wild West...the advent of steampunk! And set in the American West. Loved Artie!
My chatelaine would include: pen, small notebook, powder and mirror (just in case), small sewing kit (they ARE handy and people are always thrilled when I have one), safety pins, sewing tape (or duct tape, whichever) and clear nail polish. I assume my reticule will carry my car keys?
I had been hearing the term STEAMPUNK around lately with little to no explanation. Hmmm. I would probably watch movies that were steampunk in nature. (I would say that the new Sherlock Holmes had some steampunk elements and I enjoyed that movie a lot. Much more than previous versions.) I'm not big on the changing the outcomes, alternative history type stories--I remember a book (from when I was in college) about how the South won the civil war because someone traveled back in time (I think) and gave them AK-47s. And I remember thinking, Why would I want to read about a world where slavery continued, esp since we DID win the war and we're still dealing the aftermaths of slavery today? It just wasn't appealing to me.
Steampunk also seems to possibly be the culprit behind Pride & Prejudice & Zombies, as well as all the other Austen remakes. And now there is going to be a movie about Abraham Lincoln the Vampire Hunter, which totally makes my eyelid twitch in fury. Maybe he was.
Personally I find history exciting enough without having to go this particular route. I realize a lot of folks do not find history that interesting, and it is therefore more interesting to insert these sorts of things. But I also know I am not the audience they are writing for. I know they have an audience--and their books will be popular, but I am going to continue reading and writing in the things that interest me. Plain *exciting* history.
Marn - Yeah, when they take vampires and have them stroll about in the daylight or glitter...sorta defies expectations. I've read vampires that could walk in daylight, etc. but Chelsea Quinn Yarbro made certain the explanations were logical.
Whether said paranormal creature is a acknowledges the realities of physics or not is always interesting to me. Can a 150 pound man really transform into a 2 pound rat? If it's all based on magic, I guess, but what happens to all that matter?
Fritz Leiber did a good job with it in one of his Fafhred and the Grey Mouser by having the body leave behind a huge amount of pink dust...when Mouser trasnformed back, he wasn't near the pile and borrowed quite a bit from a nearby overweigh sultan's daughter. Who was pretty pleased with it all!
Donna - Prime example of what I meant about how readers certainly have different expectations. Not everyone has the patience for a complex world set up. And another reader hasn't the patience for an entire vocabulary of clothing items!
But my guess is that a person looking for world building would see the list of clothing items with more patience...just part of the world building. While the historical reader already knows the world their reading, so has no patience for something that has to be built from scratch.
My chatelaine would have lip gloss, a nail file, cell phone, medicalert pendent, pencil, small writing tablet and chocolate!
Ahem. I do not believe I used the word "frothy" and if I implied it, I didn't intend to. Pulling at the heart strings can be done in a lot of ways and dealing with health/life & death issues is one of them. An ailing parent/grandparent wouldn't bother me at all. Or even one of the main characters.
I like to be taken on a roller coaster ride of sorts. Good sized ups and downs with a black moment that makes me believe this will never work out and a resolution that makes sense and leaves me with a smile and a sigh. Tears are okay too.
Hel - Yer a purist! And that is great. Because, of course, real history with real people contains enough excitement for you. And it interests you, inspires you, etc.
I think the alternate Civil War book could be fascinating... There would still be an underground resistance, the south would deal with the economic inevitability that slavery will eventually fail as an economic foundation... A lot of interesting questions to be dealt with and more continual conflict for an author to sink their teeth into.
Not sure steampunk can be credited with bastardizing Austen... I'm going to a convention of the genre next weekend and I'll see what those who play in this world say about it all!
Sounds like youre a McGyver sort of chatelain carrier!
I'm trying to think of what I'd have in my chatelain, but I'm not likely to have one. I typically carry my ID and debit card in the back pocket of my jeans, and a chapstick and any cash in the front pockets. I hate carrying a purse.
Sounds like Hellie was a wedding planner in a former life.
A thousand pardons, did not mean to offend! Here, have a frothy hooha as my act of contrition!
Frothy, to me, meant more that the massive issues I'm alluding to, that of making life or death decisions for someone suffering and near death, is seldom part of the formula.
I'm thinking of too many contemps I've read that entertain, but the dark moments are seldom close to the 'real life' dark moments. Losing a job which means you're homeless, have no where to shower, lose your health insurance, have to surrender your dog to the shelter because you have to chose between feeding the dog or your daughter...
And no, I don't want to read this tragedy either! The expectations of contemporary romance is the heroine loses her job and before she suffers all the tragedies listed above, she meets the irritating hero, who eventually helps her never face the harder aspects of real life. Or her friends have room and take her in, or a relative, etc.
Does that make sense?
And what would your chatelain carry, Terrio!?
Oh, and I love Sherrilyn Kenyon's Dark Hunter series. It dances between contemporary, paranormal, and Greek (and other) mythologies.
Other than Harry Potter and Twilight, that's the extent of the "playing with the genres" I go. I don't get into anything sci-fi. Nothing. Nada. The closest was the Johanna Lindsey sci-fi romances:
Ly-San-Ter Family Saga Series
1. Warrior's Woman (1990)
2. Keeper of the Heart (1993)
3. Heart of a Warrior (2001)
Warrior's Woman--whenever he had to "punish" her for disobeying, he did it by sexually frustrating her. In Keeper of the Heart, the heroine was punished with spanking.
Very primitive. *LOL*
Oh, and there were a couple Dara Joy books I enjoyed that were more Star Wars/Sci Fi, but the sex was so hot, I didn't notice.
I am a person if you break the promise of what my expectations were, it's very hard for me to recover. Like in The Break Up, it was promoted as a smart romantic comedy. It was neither romantic, nor comical--and I was pissed off that I spent $8 to see it. And I RESENT having the word "smart" being put in front of comedy because that gives the implication that if I didn't find it amusing, I'm not smart enough to get the jokes. (Sort of the same offense I get that only really smart people with high IQs are atheist--and don't need a God. God is for dumb people.) I think I'm a reasonably intelligent person. If I don't laugh at your jokes, it's not because I wasn't smart enough to get them. I didn't laugh because humor is subjective.
Writing is subjective. This couldn't be clearer with how literary vs mass market writers are. Certain literary writers seem to think if you write anything that is of a commercial "expected" ending variety, you wrote something easy; you're not writing about the real world; and you're not writing anything meaningful. No writer is going to win over every reader. J. K. Rowling can't do it. God can't even do it. But you can get a following and be just fine. And I think that's the most any writer can hope for: for a following that gets their bent sense of the world.
No chatelain? What if it's a nifty little thing that hangs off your belt? Chapstick is good!
Are you trying to get me to wear a fanny pack?! LOL!
Here's where I see the chink in your concept there. Losing your job or your home or your pet are not the only painful things to go through. There are a million things in life that suck to go through and many of them do not involve possible death or life on the streets.
Facing a fear, public scrutiny, self-esteem issues, these are all tough to go through. Heartbreak isn't always about tangible things or about death. Having someone say words that wound to the deepest areas of the heart is one of the most painful things to go through. And something with which many readers can relate.
I guess I'm just saying things don't have to reach catastrophic levels to be important and powerful.
Good example with the movie, Hel. I think movies offend the expectations often! And the words used to promote them do tend to attempt the "Emporer Has No Clothes" crap on the viewer.
I like to think that is the fault of the evil minions in marketing. All praise to the might marketing minions!
You've hit it exactly right. They work to shame the viewer/reader into not voicing when something doesn't work for them. But it all comes out in the end with the money.
When I was a minion in a bookstore, we used to argue with the boss about putting the New York Times Bestseller list in the premium spots. Because what makes it big in New York doesn't always reflect the West Coast sensibilities. We finally talked him into considering the LA Times book list. (Lived in Southern Ca then. When in Santa Cruz we used the San Francisco Examiner list.)
Even geographically, expectations will trip an author up!
You can't win everyone. You can only hope to win over a select group of rabid followers. I mean loyal followers! ;)
This is where I'm always fascinated how Hellie and I see things differently. Perspective is so unique.
When I see "smart" comedy, I expect it to be smart. And if it isn't, then they missed the mark. I'd never think to turn it inward and blame my own lack of smarts if I didn't find it funny.
Hellie hit it right on the head - Comedy and writing are subjective.
Here you go: http://www.amazon.com/Guns-South-Harry-Turtledove/dp/0345384687/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267804500&sr=8-1
Also if you type in civil war alternate history, it pulls up all sorts of stuff.
I’d never think to turn it inward and blame my own lack of smarts if I didn’t find it funny.
I agree. But...! I do believe that the marketing gurus play this card exactly the way Hellie portrays it. It stifles objection from the get go...leaving the inference (I think that is the right word) that if you didn't find it smart, you weren't smart enough to appreciate the subtlies of it.
;) You're just too smart to see it, Terrio. Or you just ignore the very idea!
I see what Hellion means, but generally just chalk it up to more of my isn't it interesting observations. I'll analyze why it didn't seem very smart to me!
I swear, give me an idea and I'll toss it into the air and worry it to death like a cat with a ball of yarn! At least I'm having fun with it!
Harry Turtledove! I remember when those books came out. Didn't it spawn a whole flury of alternate history books? Like what if Hitler had won World War II...? Things like that.
I seem to recall a flury of Heroes in Hell books back then, too. Pitting all the worlds worst bad guys against the not-so-bad guys in great battles to control hell.
Okay, I know you mean well. But I don't like the word Purist (even though this is what Terri calls me all the time about Country music)--it makes me sound like a Puritan-Fundamentalist. Please call me something less offensive to me, like uptight biotch or something.
I don't mind if contemporary and paranormal/alternate world is mixed up; and I don't mind history and alternate world are mixed up--so long as the outcome of the history remains the same. I enjoyed Wild Wild West--but largely the aspects of history remain the same. The South still lost; the attitudes were still the same, etc. I want people to behave according to how they behaved in that world. I don't want someone with all our knowledge, "wisdom" and hindsight to portray a person from that period as if they existed there.
I do agree with some earlier statement that 99.9% of modern historicals are frothy, thin, happy books. Especially since I've been reading a history book about the times of Darwin and everyone keeps dying of either tuberculosis or typhoid fever. Or bad teeth. These things never occur in novels. No one ever has a ruptured appendix or anything...and they all live to be in their 70s or 80s. Everyone bathes all the time.
I'm suspending a lot of disbelief just to read a historical that doesn't touch on any of these things. *LOL* This is why I can't usually go the distance to believe there were that many dukes in Regency England.
Happily I'm reading a Barbara O'Neal book. I don't have to worry about any dukes. *grins*
And with that vision, I'm off to see to Bonnie. Be back in an hour or so. Hope we see a few more the regulars show up! ;(
OK...scratch purist. Well...you're a fan of accurate history. But not really! I love that you're reading the Darwin book about how 'real history' wasn't pretty or clean or all of that. And you are very aware that the 'books' keep to the fluffy kitty view of things.
It's sort of like the difference between going to the Renaissance Faire and attending an event put on by the Society for Creative Anachronisms. In one, there are peasants, dirty and filthy and all...in the other, we are all lords and ladies!
I remember seeing a deleted scene from the first Pirates of the Caribbean, where Swan and his daughter drive through town and he's commenting on how the Commodore keeps things clean and controlled. And outside the carriage is filth and poverty and all the realities of the era.
And they deleted that scene! Too heavy for the audience? Breaks the expectations of a frothy and fun action adventure movie?
I could just be an egomaniac too. Lets not leave out that possiblity. :)
Sounds like that scene would have done more to point out how Elizabeth's father was clueless to reality. Since we got that idea without that scene (and time was likely an issue) it was cut. I bet some of the best scenes ever are sitting on those cutting room floors. Kill your darlings and all that jazz.
So Hellie's comment leads to another question, and I'm not sure what my answer would be. For thos of us who read historicals, would we welcome a little more reality?
Yes, but the thing is that "smart comedies" aren't universally hated. I usually find a pretty group of my peers who like something that was marketed as "smart comedy". Like The Royal Tenebaums. Ensemble cast of people I normally enjoy. HATED the writing and the characters. 500 Days of Summer: people I knew, couldn't stand the girl...and the ending made me roll my eyes. Fewer people liked The Break Up, I think.
The girl who works across the hall from me with the same job as me, has a MA in History--and she loves the Royal Tenebaums. She'd probably LOVE 500 Days of Summer. Come to think of it, she'd probably like District 9, which I recognized the satire (I did), but was do disgusted by the vomit, black blood, and prawns, I couldn't enjoy it.
You saw District 9? Ick. I have no desire to watch stuff like that. I know it had a meaning behind it, but whatever. Not for me.
Smart can be a lot of things. It's a buzz word marketers throw around, Chance is right about that. You notice we rarely see an ad for a "dumb" comedy. Except maybe Dumb and Dumber, but it was in the title. So that one was obvious.
And they deleted that scene! Too heavy for the audience? Breaks the expectations of a frothy and fun action adventure movie?
I think they cut the scene for the same reason writers are asked to cut scenes: it was nice, but it didn't move the characters forward in anyway; it didn't add to the action of the story; and it didn't reveal anything new or different about the characters that we needed to know.
We already know that Governor Swann likes to keep his daughter tied up and proper; we already know he likes the Commodore for reasons that would keep his daughter tied up and proper; and we already know he comes from a place of wealth and privilege that few others have. (We have the contrast of the blacksmith shop to show us other "ordinary" people.) It was a nice scene, but in the end, not absolutely necessary.
For thos of us who read historicals, would we welcome a little more reality?
I can find those. Susan Holloway does good historical fiction. Granted it's writing about literal real people--I wouldn't mind a fictional person who lived a bit more gritty with the times--but they're good. There was one called The Emancipator's Wife which was good.
I can find more historical fiction, but there's not as good sex. It's like those things have to be mutually exclusive. I sort of wish there was a historical fiction writer of like a Barbara O'Neal, where things are grittier with more truth, but the sex is still really good.
And as glossy as Kleypas plays her historicals (not a lot of her people are falling over dead from tuberculosis either), hers are still grittier than a lot. And offer a glimpse of some ordinary historical slice of life stuff, either with weaving, knitting, painting, whathaveyou. I think Kleypas does a good blend of frothy and gritty. (But she's Texan, so that's to be expected, right? The women there seem frothy, but beneath, they're pure grit.)
I didn't see District 9 on purpose. It was at the gym; and it was either skip the gym (and screw up my goals for the month because we all know I won't work out at home with videos) or tough it out. I referred to it as the prawn movie, and by the second day I was BEGGING for anything else, even an Arnold Swartzenegger movie, that is how awful it was. That is the level of despair that movie drove me, wanting to watch Arrr-nuld movies.
Facing a fear, public scrutiny, self-esteem issues, these are all tough to go through. Heartbreak isn’t always about tangible things or about death. Having someone say words that wound to the deepest areas of the heart is one of the most painful things to go through. And something with which many readers can relate.
I guess I’m just saying things don’t have to reach catastrophic levels to be important and powerful.
Sounds like you and I are trying to write the same book, Ter. I absolutely love, LOVE reading about normal every day people who deal with life's traumas and simply triumph.
Hellie - I'm reading Barbara O'Neal too (The Lost Recipe for Happiness). Which one are you reading? I like her characters. They are just people with issues. No princes or princesses or villains with Snidely Whiplash twirling mustaches. It's like you and me dealing with life.
If it's labeled "romance," I expect a positive ending. I prefer the HEA. If it's "women's fiction," I expect a positive ending, but I know it may be more open and leave me with the feeling that the protagonist's life is still a work in progress.
For me, authorial expectations are as important as genre expectations. If I pick up a Julia Quinn novel, I expect humor and witty banter but with some substance, not just froth. With Eloisa James, I expect the story to move like like a play, to contain literary allusions, and to be rich in contexts. If I'm reading Anna Campbell or Elizabeth Hoyt, I expect hotter romance with a darker tone and troubled characters.
I'm not looking for realism when I choose to read genre fiction. I can reread tons of literary fiction if I want to be reminded of the Hobbsian view of life as "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short." Or I can read books about life in developing nations. I do like Carla Kelly's books and Kate Moore's recent To Tempt a Saint which leave the reader conscious of the threat of poverty and worse but only because I can read them with the assurance that the characters I've come to care about will end up safe and happy.
My stories are small-town, Southern romances, sweet with a soupçon of spice. They are grounded in a real world but washed in the fantasy central to romance fiction.
I think there's room enough for all of it. I don't think it has to be absolute - like no more historicals unless they are accurate or only accurate without the fantasy prince/princess element. It is after all escape.
It also depends on what mood I'm in as to what speaks to me - sometimes I like light and funny, sometimes I like dark and equally funny. Sometimes historical (accurate/non accurate), sometimes contemporary. That is the beauty of this industry.
I do think it is important to be honest with your audience though and not promise a romantic comedy and deliver a depressing slice of reality none of us paid $8 (or in my case $3.50 rental) to witness - The Breakup!!!
Irish - I'm so glad someone understood all that. LOL! And I really want to read your story when you're done. Sounds right up my alley!
Janga - I think you hit the nail on the head. We read fiction for the fantasy, not the reality. I guess that means each person requires a different amount of reality mixed in with their fantasy. :)
Uh... What Janga said! :) Very well put, what I was trying to say in a roundabout way.
I think your story is right up my alley too, Janga.
The Break Up broke all the rules. There was nothing funny, smart, or romantic about it. In fact, Vaughn's character bothered me so much because I had lived with that guy. The one who NEVER GETS IT. For me, that character was TOO realistic to ever belong in a romantic comedy. Unless he was the asshole ex and not supposed to be the hero.
Well, let's just say they cut the scene in the carriage because they needed to cut something and it didn't add enough. But I liked it! Along with the one where the Commodore and Elizabeth discuss their engagement...shows a much softer side of the man...
Yeah, I get the 'smart' comedy thing. It's smart because it's quirky. Why not just say quirky?
Ah, the poor maligned District 9! It wasn't a comfortable movie, that is certainly the truth. But the story was topical.
Irish - Yup, what Terrio wrote is very true. These are the real life heartbreaks that are internal and I do think we expect that. We don't expect the bad luck smacks that are the life/death things. That movie... "No Country For Old Men" was full of life/death bad luck smacks.
No one really writes that sort of drastic realism in genre fiction.
Janga? What did you think of "Steel Magnolias" and it's portrayal of southern toughness when dealing with intense adversity? Would that pull you out of the expectations of what a genre? Or is it just too far removed from the expectations of a southern women's fiction story?
What would pull you out of a story by one of the authors you enjoy?
I do agree, upon reflection, that my expections tend more toward authors and what I want when I pick them up than to what genre they are writing! Good point!
I think the same goes with movies. I heard a review of the new Alice in Wonderland and found myself thinking... "Well, duh. It's Tim Burton! That's what I would expect from Tim!" The reviewer expected Disney's Lewis Carrol!
No, the scene sounded really good, 2nd, and I like the setting and irony that he's talking about things that are clean, and he's surrounded by filth, corruption, et al. It was aesthetically pleasing, but aesthetically pleasing sometimes has to be justified. Esp in movies.
Because "smart" and "quirky" aren't the same. Smart implies, well, INTELLIGENCE. You're intelligent if you get it. If you're "quirky" it means you're "weird" and you don't want to alienate your audience right off the bat by saying, "You'll only like this if you're a little weird."
What were they saying about Alice? I mean, as you say, it's Tim, so I'm expecting odd, but cool. Funny in a bent sort of way.
I'd love for you to read it, Ter, as soon as I manage to transfer it from my brain to the computer.
True, they are calling it smart, but to my mind, what they are calling smart is quirky. But I don't consider quirky wierd...so it's just a matter of different perceptions between me and thee!
It's like when they label something a 'thinking man's comedy' ... Unlike the rest of us, who don't think at all.
I just love word fantasies!
The reviews are in love with Helen as the Red Queen. One felt Johnny was too subdued, another loved how lowkey he was playing it. One loved the girl who played Alice, one hated it. Both were unhappy with the 3-D effects save for at the Red Queen's palace...
But mainly, they were both bemused by the mucking about Tim did with the entire universe.
Which left me laughing. I mean...this is Tim! Of course he mucked things up! I hope to go see it on Sunday, with hubby.
"Quirky = weird = a negative: might be a regional thing. Middle America and all that. I'm sure weird isn't seen as bad in Cali. But it is in a lot of other areas.
Reminds me of something that came up on one of my loops. A writer who submitteda short story to what I'd call a "middle America" mainstream mag got rejected because she included an owl. She was told, "Middle America doesn't do owls."
Really? LOL! What does that even mean?
I saw two reviewers last week who loved this AiW version. And this isn't a movie of the book. Alice is 19, about to marry, and has no memory of her visit to Wonderland as a child. It's almost more of a fanfic version of a new story written from the original.
And doesn't Tim do it best when he's doing fanfic? Paying a compliment to what he loved by doing it over and over!?
I love Tim's quirky look at things!
Middle America doesn't do owls? Oh, that just sparks all sorts of gutter level giggles in me.
Yeah, I came from a high school where nerds added a g to the word, making it gnerds and used it to punnel the less gifted. It is regional and open to interpretation, certainly!
Quirky is a more a "beloved" weird. Like I want to say you're weird, but I like you too much, so I'll just call you quirky. But calling a spade a spade, you're still odd.
I had to think about the owls. Because we HAVE owls, so it's not a matter of "we don't do them", they're here.
However, it depends on what they did with the owl. Middle America doesn't go around saving forest for owls. That's what Californians do. Here, we'd probably eat the owl. If the story suggested saving the owl or saving the forest for the owl, that's where she might have run into "Middle America doesn't do owls."
Middle America doesn't do Al Gore either. I mean, I know we do recycling and being green stuff quite a bit, but as a Middle American, I have the perception that no matter what I'm doing, the Californians are doing it Bigger and our contribution isn't good enough because we're still eating steak.
Okay, first I had to google "gnerds", which of course in my head I pronounce as a hard G, which I'm sure is what they were going for. For the giggle factor of "hooked on phonics did not work for you, sucka!"--
And then I see GNERDS has something to do with World of Warcraft, and then I looked at 2nd's response that she came from a high school where they did this, and I was all, When exactly did WoW come out? When I was in high school they were playing D&D....
Please explain your geek jokes. The googling is not working.
LOL!
I know nothing about any of those games. But I love that Magee is an Elf Lord on NCIS. I have an ex-BF big into D&D. I never asked because I didn't care one fig how it worked. I do know I called him in the middle of a game once and he was pissed because I got him killed. For the record, he was OVER 30 years old.
I knew we'd never work at that moment.
*ROTFLMAO* I'm surprised he took the call! D&D'ers are HARDCORE!
I think I asked Patrick once (he was dating my friend Donnell, who was also hardcore D&D) and my eyes glazed over at the word Mage, so I knew any explanation after that would be futile.
I have no idea if the nerds at my high school adopted the term from D&D! I never played the game, but it wouldn't surprise me if that had a lot to do with it. They just liked being quirky!
I was a borderland gnerd.
Well, I always figure Texas is doing it bigger and better than everybody. Well, save for the environment. And I think Florida took over for the wackadoodle crown some years ago.
So, we Califs have to have something to claim.
I would think owls do a great job with mice in the silos for the midwest...
I saw a presentation with owls back in AR in a state park and it was cool. They are gorgeous creatures and can see (or smell?) prey up to a mile or two away.
When we first moved into this apartment, something would pound against our LR window at night (we're 2nd floor so very odd) and then I'd see nothing. Finally one night, we had the blinds open and it turned out to be a small owl. I can only guess he was after poor Chesney the parakeet.
I'm sorry, don't do owls still makes me giggle. I keep seeing ads for owl porn flitting across my mind... Like something Robot Chicken would do...
Where was Grace? I would assume he was after Grace. *LOL*
Really? Floridians are the wackadoodles now? I just think it's where all the old people live. Which they might be a little wacky, but mostly harmless. I think Cali's still in the running for wackadoodling.
No, I think Florida took away our crown awhile ago...but we'll get it back! As soon as there is enough money to spend on wackadoodleness.
That should be a drink,don'cha think?
Florida won the award during the Bush v. Gore election. Remember the hanging chads?
Grace was in the dining room. Chesney was right in front of the window. He was actually latched onto the screen. I don't know what happened but shortly after that, he/she didn't come back.
I think I'd rather have something called "Mad as a Hatter"--you know for Johnny and Tim. Mad as a Hatter is wackadoodle in nature.
Chesney was probably flipping the bird at the owl.
LOL! I am so witty!
Yeah, the hanging chads... I mean, really. We might elect action stars for governor and fund studies on self-esteem, but we don't generally screw up elections!
A pitcher of Mad as a Hatter, coming up! Let's make 'em orange in honor of that wild hair. And they be served in giant glass top hats!
I'll take one of those!
The rest of the country elected a movie star as president and a pro-wrestler became a governor. Anything can happen in politics!
See, I don't think of the chad thing as weird. I think it's not-quite-smart. And there is a difference between weird and not-quite-smart. I don't think Calis are not-quite-smart. I think they're weird.
And now a comedian in the senate. At least we don't have any porn stars in office yet. That we know of!
Two pitchers, coming up!
I read something about the orange color is what the mercury turned the hair color to...I guess they could tell you were a hatter if your hair was orange.
They had mercury in a lot of things then, though. They had so many toxins in stuff that was consumed, they'd make us look normal with our preservatives and corns syrup.
Casual weirdness as opposed to deliberate obstinate stupidity!?
Thank you, we aren't not-quite-smart.
Did I just insult myself? LOL!
Ah, some arcane bit of historical knowledge I don't understand. Hat makers used mercury, I suppose?
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/mad-as-a-hatter.html
From the description of symptoms, I should check my blood levels for mercury poisoning.
Whadda ya know? Learn somethin' new every day!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_as_a_hatter
I love the version where it's an adaptation of "venomous as a viper"--NICE.
http://www.philly.com/philly/entertainment/80465432.html
Here's the hair color bit. I love that Depp's drawing of the hatter was very close to Burton's. *LOL*
can cause aggressiveness, mood swings, and anti-social behaviour
That's totally you! LOL!
I know, right!
Okay, if anyone sees Alice in Wonderland, REPORT!
(BTW, have watched Couples Retreat tonight and it was freaking hysterical.)
I promise, I will!
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