Tuesday, September 22, 2009
Caution: Construction Zone
Seriously, you can't get any funnier than a picture of flaming zombies. Has nothing to do with my blog. Music of the week: Pin Up- Evans Blue- The Pursuit Begins When This Portrayal of Life EndsPS: I have to say, Happy Birthday, to my little sister today. Happy birthday, punk.
I'm very linear in my methods of writing. I like the unknown that unfolds in front of me while I write from one scene to the next. I like how my characters whisper to me exactly what they want to say and how they want everything to go down. It's not exact science, it's not neat and pretty and tied with a hot pink bow, but it's me. It's how I roll.
Well at least how I used to roll.
Writer me has been in complete chaos lately. She hears a scene and she goes with it- very old school me. She hears the next and she moves on- also very old school me. Except, the old school me and the writer me lately is not meshing. I'm writing all out of order. This doesn't sound like it may be as big of a deal as I'm making it, except, I don't write a plot out and outline and do those chart thingys or read those books y'all are always trying to get me to pick up. So, I have no direction. No writing compass to guide me forward and I'm feeling a bit like I'm in limbo while I'm stumbling around writing character POV's that don't even get a POV.
Ah, the joys of first person point-of-view.
Monday, I stumbled upon a quote of my semi-villain, Kady, telling me it's so easy to destroy everything once you know how to apply the right amount of pressure. I felt like that maybe I was meant to write the ending first. Not to mention my unfortunate dangerously vivid imagination light bulb went off after being wickedly prompted yesterday and I had to write something about a button up shirt and a dark hallway between Kiki and Dex to get it out of my head. (Nevermind that. Those two need to be separated. In a bad way.) And Ruiz can't handle Sadie. And Ash hasn't even made his presence known yet, but I'm thinking about a kidnapping in his future. *sigh* Seriously. How did I get into this mess in the first place?
I'm shaking my head at all this nonsense.
So, after a blog filled with really no substance lets talk if you write linear or nonlinear. Which do you prefer? What's the benefits of either side? Because at the moment, I'm not finding any. Readers, do you think you notice while you're reading if a writer pieced it all together at the end?
And someone, PLEASE, tell my muse vacation time is OVER.
Last I heard she was in Cabo drinking mojitos and screwing cabana boys. She's about three inches tall, wearing an "I Heart Nerds" leotard, pink tutu with matching leg warmers, pink diamond encrusted tiara and usually clutches a pink fuzzy diary with entries of her various nerd encounters. (Open at your own risk.) Her name is Ms. Scarlet Coco. If you see her, grab her by her hair and drag her ass back. And she's had her shots. So if she bites, feel free to bite back.
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132 comments:
It's two, two, two blogs in one! I writes linear, Sin. But I know the chaos of a wanderin' muse. My Changed World muse has gone on a real bender... I bet 'es out with Ms. Coco...
Let's hunt 'em both down and mount 'em on the walls!
Sin, I love you deeply but being a mortal man I can't multi-task. The lure of mermaids is just too great today!
I like your muse. Wonder if she would adopt me *grin
Thank the gods Loki is grazing out in the pasture somewhere in Scotland, he'd really like Ms. Coco.
My first ms was written in a chaotic vortex of nothingness. I don't ever suggest doing that way again. In fact, I said I would never ever write like that again. It wasn't fun trying to polish it up.
When I started the second ms I still wrote all over but it was more organized.
The fourth I've been writing 100% linear.
All right, you brought up zombies. I've been thinking about buying Pride and Prejudice and Zombies for the girl. Has anyone read it? Any opinions?
I haven't written linear for some time. I always start the story at the beginning but then skip ahead. Near the end of a book I tend to be writing six scenes at once, going back and forth, sometimes every couple minutes (because ends are the hardest for me to write).
If I can picture something between characters later on in the book. I start writing it. Always. Don't want to lose the image I have.
I don't think reader will be able to tell I skip all over the place when writing my books. My CPs don't notice any inconsistencies.
I'm totally a linear writer. Because I hate to plot. Brings back memories of my AP English class, when we had to submit our outline along with our papers for a grade. Except I always used to write my outline AFTER I had finished the paper. *shudder* Nope, it's got to be linear, otherwise I don't know how to fill in the gaps.
Renee - my first thought when I saw that graphic was of Pride and Prejudice and Zomibies. My brother is reading it right now (I figure it's the closest thing he's going to get to reading romance until I get my ms finished - he's promised to put everything I write in a specially-lit glass case so he can brag me up to all of his musician friends). He says he loves it, so it might be worth looking into.
I don't write linear. I jump wherever I have the scene in my head. That used to be easy, when my plots were fairly simple, and I pretty much knew everything that was going to happen. With this MS, the plot is so much more complex, there's more characters, more story lines -- and so it's a freakin' mess. I had my semi-villain tracing a call a chapter before my hero made the call (poor Marn was very confused!), my characters revealing information before they had it, reacting wrong....
Grr. So now I'm trying to clean it all up, and very much realizing the advantages of being a linear writer. Of course, if I get a really vivid scene in my head, I'll keep writing it down, whether it comes next or not. Cause those usually don't come back. *g*
I'm gonna be tied up almost all day, so sorry everyone.
MM, I feel a pirate safari coming on. Someone write us up some theme music!
Q, the muse is always looking for a new nerd. Would you like an application? As discussed with Hells last night, all applicants must write at least a paragraph about the services they can provide.
*shrug* It's a new rule.
hahahaha
Renee, I don't know about the book you mentioned. I'm sure someone will know though. I hope they can help you out :)
I'm going to get back to linear. I know I will. I hate this bouncing back and forth crap because I'm even sure if I'm writing anything that can fit into the MS as a whole.
And even though y'all swear it's plotting, I'm going to write the ending first.
Kelly, I was like that in AP English. I've always had to write the paper first before I can outline it for you. I dunno why that is. Maybe it's all the BS I have to fluff the content with before it becomes an actual paper. LOL
The first thing I thought of was that new movie Zombieland which I would never go see, but have to admit it looks funny.
I'm linear, but I do get images of scenes that come later. I've written them down before, but not lately. And now I'm remembering I got a good bit of dialogue for a pivotal scene right before I drifted off last night. Can't. Remember.
Must meditate on this and see if I can bring it back.
Tiff, I wish I had the brain power to write six scenes at once.
Hal - With your kind of story, and Marn and Sin's too, I can't imagine keeping that many strings going without getting tangled into a knot. But I'm sure you'll pull it all together and weave them seamlessly by the time you're done.
Sin,
It's called lack of brainpower to focus on one scene at at time! I've done it for the last three books, and it helps me get to the end faster! I have no idea how I glue them together at the end. I just do. LOL Let's hope everyone else things I do it well too! LOL
Hal, I suppose I can see the advantage to writing scene by scene if you see something so vividly in your head that needs to be captured on screen. You and Tiff make a good point. You have to write the stuff you see and hear in your head at that point.
I suppose the thing I don't like about it is that writing out of order feels completely out of control.
I'm with Chance, there are at least two or likely more blogs here. :) This topic of linear vs. non-linear has been in my thoughts a lot. I can pick THE DAY, September 3, that I first put a label to it, when Janga described her non-linear method here on the ship. I felt the need to write a blog that very day (on my blog that NOBODY reads! lol) to try to sort out those "benefits of either side" and what I found interesting both then and now from the comments here is that one writer can say they have to write non-linear because they hate to plot and another writer can say they write linear because...drum roll...they hate to plot. (Which makes me think that non-plotters are just in denial...*ducking!* :))
Anyway, after trying to summarize what I wrote on my blog on this, and the summary just getting as long as the post, I'm just going to be lazy and paste this in:
Advantages
My favorite, as came to me during the blog discussion, was the potential to be surprised at my writing progress. As a non-linear writer, the method is likely to be like a jigsaw puzzle. You write scenes as they come, and then piece them together. There are holes, of course, but eventually these scenes add up to a respectable word count - - almost by surprise.
This leads to another advantage, which is aimed at lessening the intimidation factor of writing a book - - that very long process of beginning, middle and end. Scenes, long or short, have a beginning and end. Scenes are manageable. It's about breaking the long journey down to smaller steps.
A third advantage is about knocking down the wall of writer's block. If something isn't working on a particuar scene, then by all means go to a different scene. If this jumping around keeps you writing, then it's a HUGE advantage.
Disadvantages
Revision. There is a lot of revision in the non-linear method, but I suspect there is also a lot of revision in a linear method. Unique to non-liner writing though, is perhaps that the transitions in the "holes" between the scenes can be rough to bridge.
Also, any time you move scenes to later or earlier in the book, there is the risk of something just not making sense, either in the scene itself or scenes that follow. A frustrating domino effect can occur and lead to rewrites entire sections. Definitely a disadvantage.
Maybe a scene you wrote has no "home." It serves no purpose to the story. Another disadvantage and one a linear writer would see as an avoidable mistake and a waste of time.
The disadvantages may outweigh the advantages. Or the disadvantages may be minimized by a strong outline to chart your story. Many writers use a non-linear method and still plot, work on characterization and find a method to the madness that makes it seem less haphazard.
LOL, Tiff. I like when things just fall together at the end and you have to sit back and think to yourself, "did I really write that? Damn, that's good."
sin - it's definitely out of control. And it gives me hives. I hate being unorganized. Every time I finish an MS I swear I'm going to write the next one linear. It never works *shrug*
Ter, Hal and Marn are fantastic about tying everything together and making it feel seamless.
*snort*
The end of False Move came together by sheer luck last week. Marn made an adorable comment about how impressed she was about how well I'd plotted it. Which is hilarious because we both knew that I was flying by the seat of my pants, and stressing majorly about it. But in the end, it worked, and I ended up with this awesome scene where the hero convinced everyone (including the heroine) that he'd slaughtered his five-year-old daughter. Is it kind of sick that I'm proud of this?
Melissa, I have your blog bookmarked now. :)
I like to write linear because I don't like to plot. And before Ter points out that I do plot and I'm just in denial about the whole thing, I have a point. While I may have an idea of where I would like the story to go, once I commit that thought to paper, my mind never allows it to stray. Whereas, if I keep it in my mind and let the story ebb and flow, the plot takes on a shape and consistency that's worthy of a story.
I have lots of scenes that have no home. Mostly because I write shorts with my characters so that I can get to know them better.
I find that to be awesome, Hal. I'd be proud of that too. LOL
Shit happens, babe. You're one of the best non-linear writers I know and you might as well keep doing it because obviously it works for you.
You'd love this scene, Sin. He walks in, swinging his daughter's hair, still braided with a pretty pink ribbon, and then pours out gallon after gallon of hot, bubbling blood onto the table in front of everyone. It's dripping off the sides of the table like a thick curtain, right into everyone's lap. And the heroine (mom) is screaming and trying to crawl onto the table to get the braid that's just sitting in all this blood because it's all she has left now of her baby girl....
I'm not in a pushy mood today, I was not going to say that you plot. Diabolically plan maybe, but not plot.
For me, I think I need to write linear because a)I need to know where my characters head is at that moment and if I've written the first 100 pages then decide to write a scene that wouldn't fit until 150 pages later, my characters aren't quite there yet. And b)...I know I had a b but a co-worker just interrupted me. *think think think*
Well, there's a b around here somewhere... (I should have plotted this comment better.)
I wish I were a linear writer. I think it would save me some anguish. But I think we all stumble into the process that works best for us.
Melissa wrote: Maybe a scene you wrote has no “home.” It serves no purpose to the story. Another disadvantage and one a linear writer would see as an avoidable mistake and a waste of time.
I speak only for myself, but I don't think those homeless scenes are purposeless. I think they are scenes I have to write in order to write the scenes that are necessary to the movement of my story. What an onlooker may see as wasted time is actually vital from my perspective.
I'd be very interested in seeing if there is any correlation in linear/non-linear and personality types. I suspect the strong Sensing types (S) are linear and the strong Intuitives (N) are non-linear.
(and thanks babe *g*)
Hal, you always amaze me with the range of your writing. Wow, you know I'd be freaking out reading that scene. Your powerful writing scares me! LOL I'm so glad you wrote it though and proud of you. :)
Sin - that's hilarious about your muse. LOL!
I write linear. I can't go forward unless i think what's gone before is decent. If not, I feel like I've got no good foundation.
I know some people seem to see their story as this already set in stone thing that they just have to record but I kind of think of mine as a journey of understanding. I might know what "happens" but it takes me some times to get to know my characters.
And the whole keeping a complex story's various threads from knotting? yeah.... still working on that.
Hal doesn't give herself enough credit by the way. I never was super confused.
Yes, Janga, I also think that "homeless" scenes do serve a purpose. I was thinking that thought also yesterday when Anne Gracie mentioned her "false trails." It's all part of the process. Either for character building and backstory or maybe saved for reworking in a different story. None of it is a waste, it just takes a discipline that sometimes hurts to sort it all out.
As discussed with Hells last night, all applicants must write at least a paragraph about the services they can provide.
I'm totally adding that stipulation that's on our applications at work that says, "This will be an indication of your writing skills. Please formulate your response accordingly." Imagine how many I'll get to discard for using "your" for "you're" or "it's" for "its"--madness!
thanks Melissa. I know you were a bit put off by the violence in this story, so I appreciate the compliment :)
And Marn, I'm glad you kept up, even if everything was out of order for a bit! *g*
I have a lot of "homeless" scenes, ones that no longer fit in the story, or had to be re-written from another POV or what not. But I always learn something about the plot or character or even just my own writing from them, so while they're technically going to be thrown away, I agree that they're never a waste.
I'm falling behind already. Today sucks. LOL
Hal, wow! That was really vivid babe. You know I dig that sort of description. There's nothing that fascinates me more than writing about blood. I don't like the sight of it IRL, but in writing, there's something magical about it.
Terri, your point of needing to know where your character's head is at, at the time it occurs, is a supposed advantage to linear writing that often backfires on me. Even when I try to write in a linear way, I always seem to have a scene that gets pushed back and back because it has too much drama for the original "linear" place I thought it was supposed to go. For instance, in my early outline of sorts (very loose plotting), I have this scene which I thought was at the beginning of chapter three. The heroine is going through a scrapbook of photos and mourning the death of the hero, who is a ghost watching her. Anyway, she speaks out loud "Is your soul lost, Ben? I know mine is." It's a turning point. The hero knows for certain she can "hear" him. But even though I wrote that scene in a linear fashion for that time, I realized later it was in the wrong place and it's much too early for him to realize this. Now, it's currently at the beginning of chapter six. So maybe I'm linear in my plotting (the outline of scenes to occur) but it will rearrange and then I have to adjust how different that scene is at chapter six compared to chapter three.
I dunno why I bother to keep a comment I started like an hour ago. I couldn't remember what I was thinking about.
Janga, interesting thought. I'd like to see the correlation of personality types in regards to linear and nonlinear.
I'm so lost I don't even know where I need to start reading and replying too. *sigh* Fck me running.
Sin - Don't force yourself to comment linearly. LOL! Blame Mercury Retrograde. I hear it's with us again. Or has it moved on now?
Melissa - That's a good point. If you think about it, trying to determine which works best, linear or non-linear, is just an effort to reduce revisions. And unfortunately, there's no magic bullet to reduce revisions. LOL! So write in whatever way works to get the story out and fix it in revisions!
It's like the writer plans, and the writing gods laugh. To put a spin on an old saying.
Ter, I am very diabolical. *grin*
I'm with you. I like to write linear because I like to know where my character is and how they are thinking at the moment without knowing what's about to happen. Since I feel way out of control within character if I'm writing scene to scene from beginning to the very end and then some random scene in the middle- I feel linear is my better option. This might be because I stay in first person and don't have the option of head hopping. Does anyone else write first person and write nonlinear?
Marn, I'm so pleased you find my muse amusing. LOL
Oh, Melissa, that was a strong statement for your heroine. I love that.
Hells, you're so mean. I heart you.
I'm down with blaming anything I can get my little mind wrapped around.
Anyone around here write the end first and then start over at the beginning?
Is it the same if you just *know* your ending but don't write it? I ask because a funny thing happened on the way to the outline. I've had the black moment of this book planned for what feels like forever. Then, when I sat down to plot the book start to finish a month or so ago, that black moment went right out the window.
I'm still debating since I think that black moment would get the gasp response, but it's more a misunderstanding thing now that I look at it. Could be cleared up with one conversation. So for now, it's out. Dang it.
I dunno. I have to know how to get to my ending in order to not worry about the rest of it along the way. It's the only way I've ever finished an actual full length MS. It never stays the same, because by the time I've written everything leading up to the "end" it has to be tweaked and it's never as hardcore when I write it first than it is at the real "end".
I keep it as like a prologue leading into my story so that I see it when I open up my files. It reminds me what I know, and what is to come, but also reminds me that life changes along the way so it's not permanent.
Melissa said: I felt the need to write a blog that very day (on my blog that NOBODY reads! lol)
Eh-emmmm
After the mess of my first manuscript and pulling out my hair with the second, I had to force myself to write linear. And let me tell you, my writing is much cleaner. And yes, it goes against my natural grain. HEll, I can't even keep my thoughts linear half the time.
I need y'all to rub off on me or something. *sigh* at this rate I will be 85 and still working on the same damn WIP.
Terri, I hate outlining, plotting, however you want to call it. But I do love my index cards. I take like 40 cards for my hero and 40 for my heroine, and about 5 for my villain. If I see the black moment clearly I write black moment at the top and write notes. I do this with many scenes, I title the card and write the pov character's name at the top. I do try to order them, but I can easily rearrange them if need be, and I can easily add to them. It gives me the freedom I need.
Nice. You need one of those cork boards on an entire wall of your house Renee so all you have to do is push pin them up so you can see them.
Muse safari is on! The difficulty wit' huntin' me muse is he's terribly sneaky. He's likely done wit' romancin' yer Coco and moved on ta lure Hal's inta mischief. (I think he found the scene ya described as temptin', Hal. Sorry. Hopefully yer muse will jus' kick 'im in the butt...)
Sigh.
I've always written linear, but I find it interstin' ta consider why. Am I more intuitive or sensing? I think when I took that test I were intuitive...
Mayhaps if'n I write the endin' fer the MS that is still tanglin' me up, than I could go back and figure out how ta get there...
And in two emails - TWO - Chance just helped me figure out two MAJOR issues about my story. I'm feeling incredibly excited about how this is going.
I can't remember if I'm sensing or intuitive. Janga could probably tell me. :)
Renee - I did basically the same thing only on continuous paper. It's very much a surface map for me that's just "this scene is next then this scene then this scene." And I put a little note about what I wanted to accomplish with the scene, but even that is changing.
My problem is that I was left hanging everytime I'd finish the current scene I was working on. It would take several days to figure out what should come next. This way, I have a clear path, but am still comfortable adding, deleting and changing. I needed those foundation rocks to create the path, then I can manipulate it how I want.
Hells, you’re so mean. I heart you.
Better to be mean and upfront now than to string them along and then wreck their lives later when I dump their asses for ending all their sentences with prepositions.
Renee, yes, thank you for visiting my blog. You were an early visitor and I should have said ALMOST nobody visits. :) And now, Terri too has visited. Thank you. Actually, it's mostly historical research posts that are archived and I don't update daily, but if anyone is interested for their historicals...
Yes, Terri, I agree that it's definitely about the revisions. I stopped counting the number of revisions or drafts! I've always thought it interesting that what one writer would consider a first draft or a rough draft would be no more than an outline in another writer's opinion. (Hal, remember when we talked about this?)
Hellie - I read that as "ending all their sentences with prOpositions" and wondered what would be wrong with that? LOL!
Hells, maybe you should just sic me on them. We all know I just love to tell it how it is. LOL
Melissa - That's a great research site. As I said over there, I don't write historicals, but I still find that stuff interesting. And I do read them so it's neat to know that stuff.
I've heard Nora calls her first draft the POS draft. As in Piece Of Shit. It's good to know even Nora needs revisions.
Sin said:I need y’all to rub off on me or something. *sigh* at this rate I will be 85 and still working on the same damn WIP.
Is it possible that you have more than one story that you're trying to fit into this one manuscript?
Melissa, I love the research articles, but I love history and there is always something that I didn't find or even more interesting is other people's takes on event. I came across a few books the other day Tales of Kansas, they have ghost stories and everything. I had to buy J Frankenstein or I would have picked one up.
Terri, it's great when someone can point out the issues for you and get you all excited again. Chance deserves a drink or two.
Terri, I have no problem with men ending all their sentences in propositions. *LOL*
Sin, I told Terri that you should get your degree in computers and come back here and work in our computer techie land because the boys would think you're a wet dream come to life. I told her what you said, scoffing, "Why? Because they hadn't seen a girl before" and Terri summed it up so beautifully for me, I wish I'd thought of it last night. "No, it's because they haven't met an Amazon before with whims of a bad girl and the attitude of a rattlesnake...and who clearly knows her way around a computer."
“No, it’s because they haven’t met an Amazon before with whims of a bad girl and the attitude of a rattlesnake…and who clearly knows her way around a computer.”
LOL
Well, it's true!
Yes, Renee, Chance deserves at least a day off from the bar for this. LOL! Someone make her one of those Twinkee things.
Though I think I said "bad girl tendencies." I don't use "whims" much. LOL!
Bo'sun here - One-Liners-R-Us.
I'm sorry I misquoted you, Mr. Dangerfield. I didn't want to google my emails for it. I was impatient.
LOL! I'm just flattered you felt I was quote-worthy.
Actually I want to quote the one from yesterday about the guy who was ahead of you in traffic. THAT'S a riot.
Funnier even than Sin the Rattlesnake.
Oh, I can tell that one. LOL! I'm tooting my own horn. So the hell what.
I get to work and a co-worker I didn't expect to see walks into my office. He's all smiles and says, "Didn't you notice, that was me in front of you at the light."
Without missing a beat I said, "Then since you didn't hear me the first time, I'll repeat it. 'Pick a lane, asshole.'"
One of my better moments.
Renee, the odd thing I discovered with writing a historical is how much you DON'T use. But I'm a collector of information so I put it on the blog. LOL
Terri, as for the black moment, I know what you mean about thinking, "this is it" and then it maybe not being as strong as you thought. Is one of the issues Chance helped you with the black moment?
I think the black moment is one of those things that is hard to define in plotting an outline. I think I'm with Sin that I don't want to write it down or I'll lose the muse. Every time I try, it doesn't sound right or seems diluted just by telling it rather than showing it. Maybe I'm superstitious. lol
Nope, Chance helped me with motivation. And to figure out something my hero is going to totally miss until it's pointed out to him. Which in a round about way does tie into the black moment. Then much thinking and analyzing must happen, not easy for a dude, and will provide me the chance to write an uber-angsty, romantic resolution. These are the times I wish writing was my day job. LOL!
Melissa, I know what you're talking about. I don't know how many books I've read where the historical input was input and not a prop. But I've been told by editors that historical tidbits need to be so well hidden you don't know they're there. The historical research I enjoy the most are used for descriptions.
But I’ve been told by editors that historical tidbits need to be so well hidden you don’t know they’re there.
I don't mind having them so well hidden I don't realize they're there. I mind that they sometimes don't exist and then I get a giggle from the author and a wave of the hand that says, "Oh, I was hoping nobody would notice that."
I'm just happy anymore if a historical sticks relatively close to the societial expectations of the time. For instance, it might be interesting to have a Puritan set book with a heroine who was a non-Christian who practices white witchery instead. But her not being hanged at the end of the story isn't likely. Having the town evolve and accept her as a witch their town would have me setting the book on fire myself.
And I'm pretty sure last night I said, "Why, because they hadn't seen boobs before?"
LMFAO
I am not an Amazon. I am not a wet dream. Please, Hells, the only thing I would effectively do if I worked in the techie dept is piss people off when I open my mouth and speak before I have a chance to throw duct tape over my lips. LOL
Tactful, I am not.
Renee, I have six stories in my head. I've always got more in my head than there's time to write. *sigh*
He’s all smiles and says, “Didn’t you notice, that was me in front of you at the light.”
Without missing a beat I said, “Then since you didn’t hear me the first time, I’ll repeat it. ‘Pick a lane, asshole.’”
LMFAO. That would be perfect in a manuscript of yours Ter between the H/H.
I think the black moment is one of those things that is hard to define in plotting an outline. I think I’m with Sin that I don’t want to write it down or I’ll lose the muse. Every time I try, it doesn’t sound right or seems diluted just by telling it rather than showing it. Maybe I’m superstitious. lol
Maybe this is the reason I write the ending first. Which to me, my ending is the black moment. I can figure out the wishy washy stuff after I finish the beginning. But I have to know my black moment (or skeleton black moment before I roll with the characters).
You never know, something like that will probably make its way into the WIP, but it's more likely the heroine's BFF will say it. She's much more snarky than Celi is.
Miranda is pretty much a Latin version of Hellie. LOL!
The Latina version of Hellie would be muy caliente loca. LOL
Yep.
Imagine that with scissors in her hand all day. Luckily, this is fiction. I do not recommend arming Hellie at work.
Yeah, she's already got a mouth that's razor sharp.
Without missing a beat I said, “Then since you didn’t hear me the first time, I’ll repeat it. ‘Pick a lane, asshole.’”
Brilliant! Put that in a book!
And kudos on the Sin assessment, now to get back and read the rest of the comments!
Sin, are you interested in a computer degree? Jus' wonderin'... Great field, btw.
And ya could do all a' our websites!
A double stuffed twinkie!? Well, I be dietin', but since cyber snacks don't count, make it three!
Renee, like you, I'm using most historical tidbits mostly for description. But I want to be accurate. When I ran my book through a critique group I was amazed at the things some critiquers would pick up on. On some things, I had to weigh a critiquers opinion against what I think a general romance reader would jump on or glance over. One critiquer was a military guy who, in my opinion, had no business on a romance writer critique board! I guess he liked romance too, but geez was he picky. Some of it was good info, but so what if my place name for the hero is Claymore, which is a Scottish sword. So what if my the leader of my highwaymen has a London accent, a Scottish name, and ambushes the hero not far from Dover. It's possible, I tell ya. Can't he get around? Humph. That brought back some anger issues. LOL Anyway, now I'm now writing a contemporary.
But fact checking isn't the same of changing the morals of historical society. I agree with Hellie that I don't think history can evolve to the characters but should be acknowledged for how it was. I like that for a time travel story with a modern character to see the contrast.
Hellie, I think there are many options open for a witchy heroine. J, my dd, is currently studying Salem. I find the whole thing fascinating. I think it would be cool if the hero was a Puritan, who eventually through the heroine, saw the error of his ways.
My heroine, in my Scottish historical, is an accused witch. But at that time, in England, witchery was just becoming a bad thing. Chalk it up to King James' paranoia.
Which to me, my ending is the black moment.
Sin! Are you saying there is no happy ending?! Say it isn't so! lol
Melissa, I love it when authorities dig their claws into our stories. And history should be acknowledged as it was. It's one reason why I have such a problem with some lines they tend to candy-coat atrocities or ignore them all together. I tend to be a very dark writer, but the times I write during were dark.
And one of the big reason I write alternate history stuff. To avoid the criticisms.
If you think you're going to avoid the criticisms, you're deluded--but for your sake, I hope you're happily deluded.
And a' course I be happily deluded. ;)
So what if my the leader of my highwaymen has a London accent, a Scottish name, and ambushes the hero not far from Dover.
LMAO. I'd probably go back to my contemporary too. (I did know Claymore was a Scottish sword, but I don't know if that would bother me...and it probably wouldn't occur to me that a Londoner with a Scottish name was living in Dover. I think you could make it work. Normally people don't like 50 miles outside where they were born--hence why he's picking on it--but if Claymore had a price on his head anyway in London, he's not going to live where he'd be easily found. Dover is as good a place as any to avoid the law--though being a Highwayman might be hard to avoid the law.
Don't mess with military guys. You'll get stuff like, "Nobody fights like that. He's holding hte sword in his wrong hand..."
Well, only the criticisms about historical accuracy! I'll just point ta the word alternate and stick me tongue out at them.
Yes, Chance, world building is very freeing. Not easier, but just different. I don't think I could write an alien species though. My alternate universe in my Order of Guardians had magic, but it closely resembled what we know and recognize. Even then, the critics wanted me to pinpoint where exactly the Headquarters was and define the rules. I then made up my Guardian Rules. So it's freeing, yes, but someone always wants order and to have things make sense. lol
I like that for a time travel story with a modern character to see the contrast.
I do like TT for the contrast. *LOL* Lynn Kurland did great historicals with TT heroines. So you still had a fiesty heroine...but gritty historical detail.
Haven't had to deal with all of that yet, Melissa. My worlds are pretty chaotic, so not sure how it's all going to work...
I did have my mentor comment that the 50 pages I sent her seemed more like a very dense outline once...
Though she liked the second 50 pages I sent her, of another story... Yippee!
it would be cool if the hero was a Puritan, who eventually through the heroine, saw the error of his ways.
I think you could find one person to come around to her way of thinking, sure. And then they could burn together when the townfolk tie them to the stake for witchcraft. It's when the whole town suddenly becomes more accepting and lets the heretics live without punishment that I'm like, "This author smoked crack."
As a woman or a lone person, you could not live in a society so FOUNDED on that principle and buck the system. You'd be destroyed or you would hide your true self. Though I think it would be interesting to see a story where a bunch of the characters are hiding their true selves to blend in with what is expected--to see the cracks.
Don’t mess with military guys. You’ll get stuff like, “Nobody fights like that. He’s holding hte sword in his wrong hand…”
LOL. How very true. I got things (not from military guys) like women don't wear jacks, why would she wear a steel bonnet? Uh because she's carrying a sword. But girls don't lead armies. This one did. The one I love is, the borders were calm during this time. Is that so?
It’s one reason why I have such a problem with some lines they tend to candy-coat atrocities or ignore them all together.
In a genre where you're not allowed to kill the dog, it doesn't surprise me you're not allowed to mention the squalid conditions of everyday life, medicine or working conditions.
Hellie - Queen of Tough Love!
I have an aunt who is really deep into Wicca and we were talking once about creating a time travel where a female priestess got sent back to the time when the Druids were so awful to women.
The one I love is, the borders were calm during this time. Is that so?
What year was the book set? I would wager anything set after 1745 would have a "calm border"--Culloden destroyed the clans.
Hellie, actually the highwayman's name was Mad Jack McGhee. I had fun with that guy. lol
Yeah, but the military stuff the guy picked apart was useful though. I did need to know that my hero couldn't just rush home from Waterloo without first selling his commission and it helped for figuring out the proper rank and regiment, etc. All stuff that was basically said in passing, but I didn't want to cause any red flags. So it was a mixed reaction to the criticism.
Not the queen of tough love. Just well aware of the frailties of human evolution and the sheep mentality of groups. Oh, and that absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Human nature doesn't change. Individuals can though.
Hel - You need a hug! :)
Don't hurt me!
I am simply not so cynical. I know, ya call it realistic. But if yer writin' a romance, than ya let it go against the reality a' things...
Jus' don't get between me and Hel as she glares at me. Ya might go up in flames!
Hel - You need a hug!
Don’t hurt me!
Sorry, that just cracked me up big time. LMAO
Hellie, have you seen a book that makes the town accepting of her witchery? I haven't read many American historicals during this time.
It's ironic how 'religious believers' were so very superstitious. I read accounts of how if a mother died in child birth then the baby was marked as a witch. Or that the mid-wife cast a spell on the child to spread the crafting. And if the child died, then the mid-wife sometimes was accused of witch craft.
Odd that doctors could use leeches in healing but if healing herbs were used there was a danger in being accused of wrong doing.
I suddenly got a mental image of Buddy the Elf trying to hug the raccoon. About the same difference.
I think giving two people a happy ending is going against the reality of things enough. I don't want a whole fairy tale--that just ruins the story for me.
I don't know. It's like when a mixed race couple, prior WWII, would move to Paris fer a happy endin' since the US be impossible fer them.
So, the Puritan and the witch leave Salem... Wouldn't that work?
I know, and go where? But still!
In a genre where you’re not allowed to kill the dog, it doesn’t surprise me you’re not allowed to mention the squalid conditions of everyday life, medicine or working conditions.
Well, I kill the dog and mention the squalid conditions.
My ms is placed in 1603, but I've been called on it at least once and I had to laugh. I've also been called on a town that I place in the debatable lands. I've done my research and know it's there and when I was called on it I double checked. Yep, it was still there.
Chance, could they disappear amongst the Iroquois. :) Go back to England. Maybe go to the islands. What if they were abducted by aliens? LOL (I think I'm lacking sleep)
You go, Rene! Don't ya love it when ya can face down the finger shakers?
Well, in my world...aliens be an option...but I be mad. I like the islands option...
Chance, I'm the girl who heard an editor in a chat room once say that a piss pot was an automatic rejection. You know what I did? In my first Highlander series, my heroine tosses a piss pot out the window to spite the hero, in my second, my entire first scene revolves around a piss pot, and in my third my klutzy heroine gets her foot stuck in one. And you know what, each of these scenes work perfectly where they are. Once I get the piss pot series done, I'll be done trying to prove I can do something I heard shouldn't be done. :)
Hellie, have you seen a book that makes the town accepting of her witchery?
No, but I'm waiting. I just didn't want to go off about Regency set novels *again*. I thought I'd pick a different time period.
LOL, Hellie. Yeah I haven't picked up a Regency for a while. But there were some Victorians that kind of bugged me. Oh well, they're in print and I'm not, yet.
I read accounts of how if a mother died in child birth then the baby was marked as a witch.
Wow, there must have been a LOT of witch babies then.
Doesn't surprise me though. In my local churchyard, there is a row of baby graves in the back of the church yard. Not marked because they were the burial spots of babies who hadn't been baptized yet. This is a BAPTIST CHURCH, which isn't supposed to believe in that sort of thing. And this is mid-1800s. 200 more years to be less superstitious--and you're still burying babies in the back in unmarked graves because they'll contaminate the churchyard.
So, the Puritan and the witch leave Salem… Wouldn’t that work?
Yes, I would. But where would they go?
And I read The Shape of Mercy...and there was a scene where basically they left or tried to leave--and the townsfolk still got them. Basically the long arm of the law will reach you. You can't go somewhere else and live in sin. THAT I could believe.
But maybe if they take a boat to Paris, I might believe it. Though they'd be surrounded by Catholics so I don't know how their circumstances have improved.
Maybe they can fall through a bolt hole and go to an alternate history in time.
Huzzah, Renee, for killing the dog! Good for you! (And funny about checking the town to make sure it was still there. *LOL*)
Renee, you are such a rebel. :)
I get tired of the shouldn't's too.
The Piss Pot Series...I love the Promotional items for this series...hilarious.
But they USED piss pots! I don't get it!
But everyone taking a bath every single night is hilarious too.
Oh, speaking of baths, when I was doing some research I found a drawing of a tub. A really cool tub. It was in the shape of an octagon with a column in the middle. There were faucet type things around the column. My imagination went wild and I was thinking of using it. My hero's grandfather was quite eccentric and bathing everyday would have been normal for him.
So, if write historical, strictly correct, you're a linear writer, right? Because ya write accordin' ta correct time and circumstance. :)
But if'n ya write alternative historical, blantantly incorrect, you're a non-linear writer... :)
Thought it might be nice ta touch on Sin's original topic agin!
Chance, that almost makes sense. You had me for a minute. I can just see myself in a college class writing that down in my notebook as as gospel, nodding like I understand and then suddenly going...now, wait a minute...lol
hee, hee. Well, if time is linear... History has an outline... I certainly remember doin' history outlines when in school...
But the theories do abound about the real nature of time...perception? More?
A question for Q perhaps!
All of these comments are the reasons I write straight contemporary. Not that I won't get called out about things, but I'm willing to deal with that. Not willing to argue over cravat or no cravat.
I love the piss pot story. What does she expect, that we'll pretend they have toilets? Or better yet, no one ever goes to the bathroom. *rolls eyes*
Of course no one ever uses the bathroom! That isn't romantic! They also never get acne, yeast infections, food poisoning...
Ah...! Romance!
I read a Jo Beverly once that was set on a ship. And the heroine actually had her "courses". I was so proud of Jo. LOL!
I always refer ta them as monthlies...
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