The Power of Lies
Paths of Desire – October Project 
I have traveled the paths of desire
Gathering flowers and carrying fire
Raising a grace to the reasons behind me
Looking for strength as you live to remind me
I'm drawn to you
I'm caught in you
I am the fly who dreams of the spider
The path to the web becomes deeper and wider
I dream of the silk that is tangled inside you
And know that I want to be somewhere beside you
I'm drawn to you
I'm caught in you
In your eyes
All of the promises
All the lies
Will you keep all of the promises
In your eyes
I am crossing the bridges of sorrow
Empty with yearning and full of tomorrow
The river is high and the bridges are burning
I know I've been hurt but I keep on returning
I'm drawn to you
I'm caught in you
I have traveled the paths of desire
Following smoke and remembering fire
The night is falling, the path is receding
I don't need to see it to know where it's leading
Lies, what would we do without ‘em? They drive the books we read, the books we write. Whether our hero lies, or the heroine…someone always lies. White lies, lie by omission, deliberate lie, protecting-you lie, the internal lie. A lie of the past, parental lies…they drive the conflict. Even more than simple misunderstandings. The classic misunderstanding might linger, but a lie? Ah, a lie festers.
The lyrics above are from a song by October Project. Alas, they are no more, but the words say it all. Even when she knows he’s lied, she is drawn to him. The lie lives in her, it colors her life…or sucks the color out of it. She looks at everyone, wondering if they lie…if they would lie to her. She longs to untangle the lies inside him. Or does she simply live with the lies? Has she fallen in love with the lies?
But the truth? We all lie. Some, at least a little. Even if it’s just to ourselves as we eat the cookie dough off the spoon. “Doesn’t count.” We justify the treat to ourselves. But we know better.
Lies can serve a bigger truth. I lie to myself all the time. It’s all about fooling myself. I’ll take motivation where I can find it.
So, why do you lie? What lie drives your latest MS? My hero lies as a matter of pride. He’s a pirate, lies are his by right of birth. She knows he lies, but prays he doesn’t lie to her. Of course, he does. She lies, but her lies fall under those of omission. And she lies to herself, lies she doesn’t even know are lies…those are the sneaky ones.
Do lies serve a purpose? Are they ever justified? Have you seen a lie serve the truth? Do you write a well told lie in your stories as a matter of course? I do. I admit it. (2nd Chance doesn’t lie. But I do… Bwah ha ha!)
Books by the Crew
97 comments:
Not sure if lies are actually necessary but they are certainly built in to the fabric of life.
In his famous phrase "Lies,damned lies and statistics", Disraeli thought there were three categories of lie. He was wrong, there is a fourth 'vital statistics'.
Have you noticed how many young (and not so young) girls seem to wear clothes that are a size too small. I hypothesise that when buying they lie about their size to the shop assistant.
Men on the other hand, being more modest, often buy a size too large. They like baggy sweaters and loose fitting trousers(take a look at pics of Einstein relaxing with his pipe!)
As for romantic fiction, how would a seduction scene proceed without a few flattering lies, especially when the guy is chasing a fat dowry!
More subtle are the truths that aren't told. Creating false impressions without actually telling lies. Somehow I think that this category can be quite helpful. When consoling a distressed person or a child, for example.
I'll have to put me thinking cap on for a more considered response but what a fascinating and thoughtful blog to start the day.
Is that your poem Chance? I like it! :D
I'm well acquainted with lies as I married a man who couldn't tell the truth if his life depended on it. Even when there was nothing to gain, his knee-jerk reaction was to lie. And then, of course, when there was something to gain, the lies got bigger.
I have the problem of being honest to a fault. I could never be a spy, any direct question and I'd spill all the secrets. This does not mean I don't lie to myself, but my guess is we all do. (I've so been the one with the spoon covered in cookie dough. Or chocolate frosting.)
In my WIP, most of the lies are all of omission. He doesn't tell her he has a deceased fiance, she doesn't tell him having a relationship with him could cost her her job. Just details overlooked. But the biggest lie is the one the heroine tells herself to avoid facing her fear. Then again, who doesn't do that?
Great blog, Chance. And great lyrics there. I'll have to look them up.
I'm guilty of lying by omission--usually for "the greater good". Meaning I will omit telling a person something I think about them OR that I heard about them, if it's not positive and I don't think it will serve a good purpose for them.
For instance, say I knew a guy who was a parent--and he believed he was a good parent. And he was. A really good dad. But he's not perfect--as all parents are--and he spoils his kid--as all parents do...and then say a mutual friend of the guy and me told me that they thought this guy was a horrible father because of the way he spoils his kid.
I don't share that information. In either direction--because it usually boils down that the father thinks the mutual friend would also be a horrible parent. *LOL*
I just nod and go, "That's probably true."
Is that lying by defintion? Or just good policy?
Oh MM, I heart you.
I'm currently on the phone. I'll be back later.
Following Hellie's train of thought, is it then lying to not tell a person what you really think? I often have these conversation with people where they'll do that "I mean who would do that, right?" thing which means they really aren't asking you, they automatically think you agree. And if you don't agree, what do you say? This has always been a toughy (new word?) for me. Because my reaction is to usually say something like "What's wrong with doing that?"
Q - No, not my poem, lyrics to a song by October Project. But yeah, I think those little lies, like what size to buy, how many calories are really in that bag of chips, those are interesting lies. They don't really hurt anyone but ourselves. If they even hurt...
The lies that are more a matter of politeness are tough. I'm not sure they are lies or just a matter of being kind. I have a nephew addicted to the truth. He is arrogant about it. As if telling the truth to someone about their appearance, etc, is so pure, that person isn't allowed to be offended. Which is bullshit. Telling someone they are fat and it's their fault their BP is high is cruel, truth or not. Esepcially if they come to you confused and in need of comfort. The kid lacks empathy.
OTOH, I bet it would make a great character in a book...
Doesn't science lie...? Especially when it comes to interpreting data. All to often it a matter of who is paying for the study!
Terrio - I hightly recommend October Project, great group. Wish they'd lasted longer than two CDs!
I like to think I'm honest. I tend to have the Sagitarian trait of bluntness, but I work very hard at being kind. I don't hide much and will answer most every question posed to me. But that is in my relationships with others.
With myself? HA! Lies litter the pavement.
My DH bends the truth. He does the lie by skirting the issue. I do think, sometimes, it is very hard not to lie to some people. Some people almost demand you lie to them because if you tell them the truth, they will use it to manipulate the situation. This is my MIL MO.
In 'real' life...hee, hee... all of this is difficult to live with. In books? Fodder for plot developement. If our H/H weren't flawed, or didn't deal with flawed people, where would we be? ;)
Yes, but what about the lies that are for the good?
Like you "lie" to yourself that you're going to make it, that everything is going to be okay, that you will get published, that you will get thin--comforting little reassurances that you NEED to hear to get out of bed in the morning. They're not really true--or are they?
What is a lie?--as Lord Byron once wrote--it is but the truth in masquerade.
Cap'n, I'm not sure that is a lie by omission. I think keeping an opinion to yourself is just diplomacy! Or avoiding gossip. I mean, it's not like you 'know' the guy is a bad parent, etc. and you're making something up.
Now, the way Terrio put it, that is a toughy! Like standing by when an ethnic joke is told that you find offensive. If you let it slide, are you lying to the joke teller? Leaving the impression you approve of slanderous jokes?
This is a real slippery slope. I think when you deliberately...no, that won't work, it isn't always a matter of deliberation...
As with secrets, lies seem to be a matter of personal experience. One person's lie is another person's 'eh...' A very upright person will consider the smallest thing a terrible lie, and there will be no middle ground. No grey areas.
Most of us fade into that grey area without much thought. Which makes for an other great opportunity for plot developement. How do you reconcile such diverse viewpoints? One person's sin is another person's path to heaven. (Especially with sex. :) )
(Which is always an important part of any romance novel!)
This lie issue was a big conflict in a book I recently read--Too Good to Be True by Kristin Higgins--it was really funny and cute and sweet, and she was a LIAR. For a good cause. *LOL* But the guy she ended up dating had a BIG issue with lying on any level. Let alone the level she'd been lying.
And her lie was something anyone could see themselves doing. She made up a boyfriend to keep her family off her back and to make her sister feel less guilty about taking her fiancee--and it snowballed from there.
Good stuff. And the hero--though he was an ex-con (how's that for a HERO!)--hated liars.
I agree, Second, that it's probably more "diplomacy" than an outright fibber. But to me, diplomacy is a form of a lie. It's telling someone what they want to hear...or not telling them what they don't want to hear.
Then again, as you say, if I'm not gossiping, that's a good thing. So am I sinning if I lie by not telling them what I know...or am I saintly because I'm not perpetuating gossip that does no good to anyone?
The motivational lies! Ah! I do this all the time. Because...we aren't sure they are lies...no proof they are lies. We "feel" they are lies when we are sad or depressed or been dealt a blow to our ego. But are they really lies?
Do they serve a greater good? This is where my hero uses lies, to serve his greater good and usually, the greater good of those he is responsible for. And usually they are told to counter another lie.
Which might be..."You'll never make it as a writer... This will never sell... No one will ever want to read this... " If these are lies, and we don't know because no one knows, then using a 'lie' to counter them isn't bad, it's nothing more than defense.
Like with my MIL, we might lie to counter a lie she tells... (I need you to stay... We need to go, we have an appointment we can't miss...)
Yeah! I saw a movie like that recently... Some old straight to DVD movie. She lied about a fiance to protect herself from a well meaning family that was driving her crazy.
It's a great way to drive a story forward, a conflict that can be internal (he lies and hates that about himself) or external (he lies and ends up alone because she can't stand lies of any sort).
The trick is making the lie believable as a conflict.
I have a lot of fun with lies in my Caribbean series. He admires a well crafted lie... She's more the tell-it-like-it-is sort. But she has to lie about her skills or she'd be in trouble all the time... It makes for some interesting situations!
I have a problem with lying, though I'm getting better as I get older. I think it was the way I grew up - lying was acceptable, showing emotion was not. Ever. And for someone as overly-emotional as me, that meant I spent a *lot* of time lying.
But anyway, enough about my neurosis. I'm proud to say I now make a genuine effort to be flat-out honest. It's more fun, anyway :)
My WIP has so many lies in it, I actually had to make a chart on a big piece of poster board and hang it to my living room wall to keep it all straights. Bold-faced lies, lies by omission, concealed facts, mis-understandings....this baby's got it all. Everyone's got hidden agendas, hidden identities, secrets, etc. Of course, every character in my novel is a spy, a terrorist, a politician, or some combination of the three. It makes for a lot of lying *g*
Interesting topic 2nd Chance.
Lies … lies …. Honestly I wish that I was a better liar. Life would have been so much simpler … and for that matter so would death. Lies … are they ever justified? Yes. I learned that the hard way. But you don’t want to hear that story. Trust me. You don’t.
No lie.
I wrote the following many years ago. I still stand by it.
The Truth is something that you tell someone when you care about them. A Lie is something that you tell someone when you love them enough to tell them what they need to hear.
"... So am I sinning if I lie by not telling them what I know…or am I saintly because I’m not perpetuating gossip that does no good to anyone?"
Here is where it's personal! Doesn't that all depend on how you feel, inside, about it all? My question would be...what do you really "know"? You "know" he spoils his kid? You "know" this makes him a bad parent? You "know" he's a good parent even though he spoils his kid?
There's a real trap in stating you "know" anything! Especially when it comes to a quantitive statement regarding another person's motivations or value.
I truly admire good diplomacy. Where you tell the truth, but you coach it in terms that are difficult to object to or oppose. In fact, you do it so well, the other person is agreeing with you as you go along!
In the situation with my nephew...Yes, it is the truth that being overweight causes all sorts of health problems...but to consider the situation and know when is the time to suggest losing weight as a solution is the right way to go about it and when the situation calls for "Yes, this situation sucks. I'm sorry you have to deal with this." That is diplomacy...and being empthetic.
*LOL* Poor Hal. I feel you. You know what lie drives me crazy? When people come in my office and say, "How are you doing?" And I'm supposed to say, "Fine" because it's polite and they don't really give a crap anyway. It's a redundant, irrelevant question--and about half the time, I'll either IGNORE the question and say, "How can I help you?" or I say, "Stressed" or "Busy"--and end up getting a non-plussed look from the person who asked the question.
Why are we supposed to say we're fine if we're not? I'm not fine! *LOL*
lol Hellie! I hate that question too. I have a friend who always starts conversations with "What are you up to?" and she expects a "Not much" or "nothing" in reply so she knows you have time to talk. I find it hilarious to actually give her a run down of what exactly I'm doing, and then get this stunned silence on the other end. LOL!
Hal - I love it! A chart of lies...what a great title for a book... Mind if I steals it?
I don't approve of lying, but I don't approve of truth being used as a hammer and then being justified because it is the truth, afterall. I do think we all have to deal with the lie instead of express emotion at one time or another.
After my heart tried to die, my mind told me a huge lie... When that lie fell apart I was diagnosed with post traumatic stress disorder. But that lie, that everything was OK, was what saw me through the first few months without being frozen with fear. It was a lie to protect me until I was ready to move forward with the truth. It was an instinctual coping mechanism.
And I find that fascinating in regards to what that says about the evolutionary aspects of lying in regards to species survival!
Are all lies evil?
Julie - I have to work on that...
"The Truth is something that you tell someone when you care about them. A Lie is something that you tell someone when you love them enough to tell them what they need to hear."
I get the need to hear part, not sure...is this about timing? Like the example I keep harping back to... Yes, losing weight is the truth of how to deal with a scary diagnosis, but that isn't what the need to hear...yet?
Hel, Hal - I love that How are you feeling crap! That wonderful dance of politeness that is truly meant to be ignored and is more about making the other person feel like they care. When they don't, not really. That's the real lie in that situation!
Chart of Lies - go for it!
I work with a woman like that. She says mean, spiteful, hurtful things, and then says "But I believe in being honest. I'm just trying to be transparent." Uh, no. It doesn't count as honest if the only reason you said it is to hurt my feelings and make me feel like crap. I really think, for something to be truly honest, it can't just be the truth. It has to be said for honest motives as well. And being cruel and manipulative doesn't count as honest motives.
Sin! I know you'll be back and with a perspective as unique as you are!
YES! Or that entire line about "I'm only telling you this for your own good." Bullshit. Nine times out of ten, it makes the teller feel good and that is why they spout off!
It's that entire game of one-upmanship...
Motivation at the heart of it all is priceless... And something I want to remember as I write. Perhaps that is why sometimes, a lie in a book just doesn't ring true and I have a difficult time buying it as a plot device...?
You ladies are sliding on some seriously slippery slopes. (Takes care of all my alliteration for the day.)
IMO - Positive thinking is NOT lying. Fooling yourself could be.
Diplomacy is more about discretion I think. Instead of saying, "You're an asshole!" you can say, "I'm not liking you very much right now." It really says the same thing, just a little less venom.
The "How are you today?" thing might be more habit than anything else. It's like saying hello or sure is hot today or LEARN HOW TO FREAKING DRIVE! Habit. :)
But with the don't tell someone something that will hurt them, that's the catchy one. See, there were MANY people who knew my husband was schlepping other women. NO ONE told me. Not one. Even a woman I worked with knew and didn't tell me. Now, I'm not totally sure what I would do if roles were reversed, but for me, I would have preferred someone tell me.
Timing is very important, Chance. So, IMO, is your motivation for lying. I to believe that there is a great deal of difference between diplomatic & being a liar. I believe that being tactful means that you must hold back some of the facts …like when asked by so-and-so if a certain article of clothing makes them look fat I would reply “You look lovely.” Even if I thought ‘Your butt looks like an aircraft carrier.” Because the truth is “you” personally look lovely.
Hey
No one ever said that when you told the truth it had to be “Do you Swear to tell the truth? Nothing butt the whole truth…”
I am a great believer in being diplomatic. I don’t believe in being deceitful, but I do believe in the art of deflection. I am forthright about information, but I am not forthcoming with it. I like my words to be comprehensive, but my motivations to be incomprehensible. I like to be un-peggable. Elusive. Which makes me think …. Gosh Terri, what were you saying about being a spy….
Yeah, I could see that. If you don't get the motivation of *why* they lie, it's hard to buy it as a plot device. I was thinking about this a couple weeks back. Everything has to have cause and effect in a novel. So not only should the motivation ring true, but that motivation needs to be the direct culmination of everything that came before it.
Jeez, now I sound like Gandhi and it's way too early in the morning for that!
Ouch, Terri! That's a bad one -- when you tell and when you don't. And you're right, a lot of it is how we say it. I'd love to just tell people off, but I'd probably feel bad later, even if I was technically being honest :)
That's Julie, not Janga. Too many dang "J" names. LOL! Sorry!
Janga - I just learned an immense amount of info from you in that one comment. I've never thought of it that way. Your motivations to be incomprehensible? It makes sense, but my honest-to-a-fault heart wonders, to what end? Really? I'm curious?
Maybe Janga is the real international woman of mystery around here. LOL!
Ah, Terrio - Would have taken a true friend to tell you that truth... I'm sorry ya didn't have someone that trusted themselves enough to tell ya.
I agree, that positive thinking isn't lying, because there is no truth that is being countered. When contest judges slam me writing, it's an opinion, not a truth. So, fer me ta say 'doesn't matter, they don't know anything' isn't a lie. Well, it's a lie that it doesn't matter, but that's just an emotional reaction.
And yes, slippery slope indeed!
Now that you know the truth, you prefer you were told earlier--however, IF a woman had come up to you and said, "I know your husband is sleeping with somoene else" would you have believed them?
That's the problem the "Knower" has. If I tell the truth, will I be believed or will I be shot down? And what if she already *knows* the truth and simply wants to live the lie--there are married women who KNOW their husband is a cheating dirtbag, but are willing to turn away from the details just so long as her husband is not adulterating out in the street in front of their house.
There was an episode on FRIENDS where Joey gets mad at his father and makes him tell his mother that he's having an affair--and his mother comes and chews Joey a new one for getting involved.
"Everything has to have cause and effect in a novel. So not only should the motivation ring true, but that motivation needs to be the direct culmination of everything that came before it."--THIS IS SO TRUE!
Hal - Ghandi is good. What are you drinking?
I've just got coffee this morning! LOL! I teach classes on Gandhi philosophy, so it kind of spouts out of me now and then at the most awkward times :)
ah, Friends for an object lesson in life. I was actually just thinking this morning about the episodes where they were on a break, but Ross slept with some girl. The hubs and I had been debating what's cheating and what's not....of course I threw out Friends as an example!
"I am forthright about information, but I am not forthcoming with it."--that's so my policy on things. *LOL*
Unless you piss me off, then I'll just tell you how it is right from the get go. (But that hails back to Hal's thing about WHY are people offering the truth? To be cruel and manipulative? Me, it'd be: to get them out of my face as soon as possible--and being rude usually gets them gone.)
Hal: so did you say Ross was cheating then? I mean, they were on a break... *LOL*
Hellie - this has been in my head for weeks now. Cause - effect. Action - reaction. Unfortunately for me, making that come together on paper is a little harder than just yammering about it! Maybe I should stop running my mouth and just try harder. lol
"Nothing butt the whole truth...!" HA!
Diplomacy is in the words, certainly.
And dodging...like the lyrics in "Best Little Whorehouse in Texas" where the governor sang about deflection and sliding to the side...
No Terri, you had It Right! Janga IS the real international woman of mystery around here. The Woman Literally Reeks of Secrets Untold.
LOL!
LOL! Actually, in the Friend's case, I'm on Ross' side, but only because of that phone call when he found out Mark was there. Otherwise, he'd have never done it.
I'm on Ross' side too. *LOL* But I always thought Rachel was a high-maitenance la-la-Princess anyway. He chased her. His fault really.
Man, Terrio - You had me searching for a Janga comment I missed!
Gotta love the women who lie to themselves by hiding from the truth. If I don't see him f*cking someone else, he isn't. There is a great river flowing through your life, called denial!
Motivation for lying, unless you're creating a real psychopath (tho I suppose they do have motivations...hmmm!)
Anyway! I prefer to see motivation and payoff in a lie as a plot device. Tho I suppose it can simply be a character flaw...no, I still want to know why and what the payoff is!
Q said ‘Have you noticed how many young (and not so young) girls seem to wear clothes that are a size too small.’
Q! Truly, this made me laugh. I don’t think that the ‘problem’ lays with woman lying about their size. I believe that those naughty Manufactures are deliberately skewing the sizes on purpose. Yes. I know. Its Shocking! But I can see some clerk somewhere thinking “‘I Like women in tight clothes. So I’ll change the size parameters on the manufactures’ specs … .” Its All a Diabolical Plot. I just know it. The other problem with woman’s clothing is the fabric. I’ve had more than one near death experience with articles of clothing constructed with a high content of … Spandex.
I can see National Geographic doing an expose` on it … Spandex: the Anaconda of the Fabric World
Is it ‘denial”, Chance? Or is it just Creative Marketing?
Denial? I love deNile. Its such a lovely , mysterious river!
As in all things, a little bit goes a long way. Especially with Spandex. Only in moderation. Do not abuse the spandex!
The great clothing size lie! Yes! What was once a 12 is not an 8! Women will feel better about themselves and buy more clothing if we lie and tell them they wear a size smaller than what the actual size charts of the past would say!
Bwah ha ha ha ha!
2nd: you just got done telling us that denial is a good coping mechanism. Are you now suggesting that some denial is bad and other is good? Who makes that decision of which is bad and which is good? I mean, that's going to differ from manifestation to manifestation...
Hey, don't knock vanity sizing. It keeps me going. I currently own jeans in a size I couldn't wear when I was a Sr in HS. Ha!
Yes, I believe I would have liked to know at the moment. Mostly because I was made a fool of and that's almost worse than being lied to. For this Capricorn at least.
And that, "If I don't see it, I don't know it for sure" is bogus. Sorry, not to be a PITA. You can know something without being an eye witness IMO. That excuse is just that, an excuse for not getting involved.
And this culmination thing is now sending me into fits. I have no idea why my heroine doesn't tell the hero about the job thing. I think it doesn't come up, then after it's gone too far, if he finds out that her doing well with his account would get her the much-desired promotion, he won't know whether she schlepped him to get ahead or because she really wanted to. Hmmm...I don't have time to plot this until July. Stop making me nuts! LOL!
" Spandex: the Anaconda of the Fabric World"--*ROTFLMAO* This is too true.
Q, I have to agree with Jules here. There is a fine line between too tight and too frumpy. And clothing manufacturers mostly create clothing for either clothes hangers or models who look like clothes hangers. If they attempt to make anything for someone of a more generous size (say an 8), they try to put you in a circus tent to cover your humiliating fat lumps. Shopping for women's clothing is a circle in hell, my friend. It's why women will pay $500 for a shirt or bra that fits and makes them look and feel wonderful...
I've missed the whole damn conversation today. I hate work.
I'm gonna try to get caught up to the comments before I comment. I see there is a lot of convo going on today. I'm interested to see what everyone has to say.
I've heard Spanx rule, but I've never tried them. Talk about a form of denial. LOL! That's straight out camoflage (sp?) right there.
I accidentally tried on a nightgown last week that was not only spandex, but shimmery. Let me tell you, that thing suctioned itself to my body. I'm pretty sure I made a horrified squeaking noise and almost broke my arm trying to get it back off. LOL!!
Being made a fool of is the worst, yes. And yes, most people rationalize not saying anything because they don't want to get involved--but that happens all the time. Yours is a humilation thing. There are people who *know* but don't speak up about domestic abuse...or even abuse in the street.
Hello, last week a guy was nearly beaten to death on one of our streets in my "quiet little town" in the middle of broad daylight. And as soon as anyone hears what road it took place on, everyone goes, "Well, hell, I won't even drive on that street." Middle of the day. You can't tell me no one saw that go on...and I bet you no one reported it.
Ah, but Hel - If you like floating on a river, it isn't bad! It's a coping mechanism.
Sis brought up another sort of lie. The lie of convenience. And there is the lie of "It isn't my story to tell..."
I'm not sure there is a bad or good in the situation period...
Okay, still haven't read the comments, but.. oh well.
BTW: October Project- the bomb. Love "Take Me as I Am".
You know Hellie - I want to say I would have reported it, but I don't know. We have those streets in our town, and our gangs are bad enough that I don't know if I would have had the nerve to report it.
I just wrote a scene like this this week. The hero is hiding in a safe house, watching out the window, and sees a woman get killed in the street. It's a seedy neighborhood, four in the morning. If he calls it in, the police will be able to trace him. If he doesn't, she rots on the sidewalk till morning. The heroine tells him not to make the call, that someone else will. He does it anyway, and sure enough, they're tracked down because of it. Stupid decision? Or the honorable thing to do?
Terrio - Well, maybe she started off not intending to lie... It just sort of happened... Does she know she'd be fired? Or just suspect? She's the only one who can know her motivations. He's just going to make them up for her according to how it impacts him emotionally...
She knows because her boss has repeated more than once the company policy is NO getting personally involved with clients. But the boss is out of town, has given her this shot to rise up from peon, and hero is damn irresistible. Though she tries. Hard!
Sin - October Project...everything! I even got to see them perform. I love "Be My Hero"... Catch up when you can, it's been a busy morning!
Hal - That is one of those great plot movers that develops character. Stupid? Maybe, but honorable. I finally caught "No Country for Old Men" the other night. If he hadn't gone back to take water to a dying man...so many might not have died... But it established him as a character I could root for.
I'd have to call that in. No way could I live with myself if I didn't. But it doesn't surprise me a bit if many others wouldn't.
Gosh, Hal, you sure do put those characters through hell. What a choice?
Chance - I loved that movie. You're right, it's those kind of choices that show so well what a character is made of.
Oh good - I was afraid people would roll their eyes at that being too easy of a choice. The funny thing is, I do it from the heroine's POV. The hero never hesitates, just makes the call, shatters the phone, and says "Let's go." LOL!
Crap, sorry, I'm all over the place today.
I'm not sure how I'm going to answer this question today. My characters are notorious for lying, whether it be the little white lie or the massive trying to cover my ass lie. Lying in a character standpoint helps with misdirection and misdirection is what helps a mystery plot while writing.
I see lying and misdirection as the same thing. Well, almost the same thing. One is a emotional thing (lying) and misdirection is the direct path you put someone or something on after you've displaced that emotion. (Definition in my own words.) And like Hal said, she spent a lot of time lying because she's an overly emotional person (there's nothing wrong with that babe) but lying is a very complex emotional thing. Lying can be used for all sorts of things- but lying is pure emotion.
I'll be back.
Hello! Revenge Crew, Just thought I would drop in and say hi!
Well, I think that there is a lie in almost everyone. I also think people lie for different reasons. We write it for different reasons also, does it make it right? maybe not! I think I would rather lie to a stranger than a friend! I think that is because I have this idealism that my friends love me no matter what or who I am, a stranger hmmm ya I would lie to them. I have to say in my first marriage at a very young age I lied, mainly for survival, but after I married my husband Bryan it took years for me to learn I didnt have to lie about anything, anytime. So Yes, I can admit I have lied. I write it in my characters. At this stage of my life I think there really is no reason to lie, but I still like to tell my husband the new shoes I bought were REALLY not $200.00 and he laughs, because he knows better! Have a great weekend all!!!
Lying is pure emotion...hmmmm. Your characters see lying as different than misdirection. I think I see where they're going. Misdirection being more a cerebral exercise, lying more from the heart.
Interesting. That makes my hero a master at misdirection more than a master at lying.
I think it lies in the motivation, again. Misdirection, which is a lie by another name, is more about tangible gains. Lying is about the feeling, whether it is to avoid a feeling or cause a feeling. Or a reaction, which is generally about a feeling.
You have given me food for thought. I knew you would!
'ello, Jane-o! Ah, the great shoe lie... I manage that by just not talking about the price and using coupons. A lot of coupons.
I think ya be right about who can 'handle' lies. And friends generally don't handle lies well, but I like to think...they could. I assume it's all about expectations.
I fight to only lie to myself. Well, and the MIL, to be truthful. Hee, hee.
I have to go to lunch becuase if I don't leave now I'm not going to get anything to eat. But I needed to say that I feel like misdirection is more directly moral than lying for malicious reasoning. Misdirection implies that as much as you'd like to tell the truth, telling the truth isn't really an option at that point. So misdirection is more of a intent to do more good than harm, though it's the same with lying. Misdirection is still not the truth. Misdirection is just giving yourself a reason to feel better about it.
Talking on the side to Last Chance... She commented on the entire aspect that for a book, lies are a plot device. But in real life? More like they just happen...seldom have deep consequences...and almost seem like a social excersize than anything else. Ala that whole, "How are you?" crap.
Haleigh, you should have bought that nightgown. I have no doubt that a special someone in your life would have approved even if you didn't. Go here
http://www.romancevagabonds.com/?p=3189#comments
& read the "Julie" comment under Elizabeth Boyle's If The Dress Fits... for a look at how different women & men view things.
Terrio - This helping at all with the lie in the book?
Ah! A sin by another name is still a sin...to the angels. But we mortals can feel better for calling it somethin' else.
There is also the deliberate aspect vs. the lazy aspect, for lack of a better word. One, you consider the consequences, have a rational reason. The other? It was easier than dealing with what the truth would reveal.
Ah Julie, your hubby was so nice people assumed you were his mistress! I think he definitely wins pirate hubs of the day! ;)
Yeah, that was hilarious. The way society will dictate that the woman in the red dress is a harlot. Except in February, where she might be a heart attack survivor. A new fashion rule?
That should be differentLY.
And from a Reader's stand point: I love plotlines that involve a simple "little lie" that grows into A Huge Lie. So lie, lie away... The fun is in seeing how creatively the writer (thats you) can cut through a seemingly impassible jungle of lies to reach the HEA.
Yeah, that's the trick of a plot revolving around a lie. It has to seem big enough to play the part, but not so big that it really is insurmountable. And my favorite not-work? The lie that is played up as huge, but which is really a piffle. Granted, it may be big to the character, but if the reader can't see it as big enough or you haven't sold it enough to convince the reader that the character really, really, really sees it that way? The suspension of belief is gone...or would that be the suspension of nonbelief? ;)
Wow - I had a very very busy morning and I'm just making it here today and the place is exploded! 70 something comments. Oye people, it took me 15 minutes to read.
A few responses:
Spandex is the devil. And those spanx things, I think that they look like a corset of our age and I think it's ok to lie that way if it means being uncomfortable all day long.
Hal - holy choice between calling it in or not. I love Kersey.
As far as lies, my hero lies to himself about not wanting my heroine, my hero lies to her by not admitting that he loves her. My heroine begins by lying to herself but comes out ok in the end. :)
Great blog, Chance.
Chance - I'm sure some of this is sinking in. I'm so far removed from the story, it will take me a while when I get back to it to see how this will process in.
Marn - Is it really lying to NOT tell her he loves her? Now, if he comes right out and says, "I don't love you", then that's a lie. But just not speaking the words, not really a lie. Right? Maybe?
About that writing lies into a story, the real trick is how to redeem the liar. In the third book of Tessa Dare's summer trilogy (yes, I've read book 3, lucky me) the hero sort of tells some big lies, but when it came down to the black moment, I was mad at the heroine for the way she reacted. I was actually pissed that SHE broke HIS heart. Now, that's writing talent right there. LOL!
I was thinking about this over lunch.
I wonder if they've ever done a study to see which sex lies the most. Women have the tendency to lie because it's in our nature to nurture and protect and make the lives of others around us better in general. (Well this is what I'm told, I have the tendency to do the opposite regardless how it makes others feel.) Men tend to lie on a grander scale- the lying to keep them out of trouble. I'm not going to say either sex doesn't do the opposite kind of lying (because let's face it, both men and women cheat, gamble, do drugs, alcohol, drive fast, get tickets, spend lots of money- all sources of lies and arguements.) but it's habits that keep you in lies.
So, A: if we weren't the type of creatures to depend on the happiness of others (not me obviously) would our little white lying become more malicious or would we find other reasons to little white lie. (Honey, I swear, I didn't spend THAT much on ... whatever.) (Those pants look really great on you.- OMG. Why is she wearing white pants! They make her ass look like a semi. (Of course, you're not this luck if you're my friend because I just tell you white pants are the devil and if you don't take them off people will refer to your ass as a shelf.)
I keep getting interrupted at work. Can't they see I'm busy?
Marn, I've heard the spanx are the wonder tool of the new age. My best friend hearts them lots. I've yet to buy a pair, though I've thought about it. Hard.
Regardless if you speak it aloud (outright lying) or keep telling yourself a lie (which is sort of like denial, but it becomes a mantra and even if it is internal, it's still a lie) it's still lying. To not lie would be the person who is forthcoming no matter what during the day. Omission is still a lie, because omission is usually denying the truth.
I knew I was right when I didn't buy those white pants the other day.
I think men are more likely to lie to make themselves look better. I make XX money. I drive XX car. I have a XX long...well, you see where I'm going. Women are more likely to lie for other, men are more likely to lie for themselves.
But as you state, these factors can switch between genders very easily. I used to think women were more spiteful than men, then my ex corrected me in that thinking. LOL!
MM, I never said I was a saint. LOL
Lying is lying. *shrug* I think there are good points to lying and bad ones. Though, most of the time the bad points to lying are moot. The point is as a person and a character to learn how to lie and lie effectively. Eventually you could be caught in a lie, but the good ones never get caught and/or can talk their way out of it.
I think lying really boils down to an individual person's moral code. Sense of right and wrong. Ability to walk in the gray without conscience inspiring moments.
This is where we see things differently. My experience is that all liars are eventually caught, some just make it longer before the hammer falls. And I think I take the lazy approach. If you start telling lies, you usually have to tell more to keep from getting caught in the original ones. That means keep track of more and more lies. Quite exhausting. I'd rather tell the truth, it takes less effort.
I agree. I'm more honest to a fault. The only problem with that is I'm more apt to just tell the truth whether it hurts or not. Like the whole white pant comment. I'm not afraid to just say that. I don't think about saying it, it might hurt someone's feelings, it might make me look like a bitch, and maybe they won't take me shopping ever again, but why lie about it?
Don't worry, I'm sure the person appreciates it eventually. A little insult in the dressing room is better than an entire bar laughing at your expense.
Terri, I think the greatest lies are often silent ones. Lies cloaked in silence have destroyed friendships, marriages, and public trust.
Is there anyone who doesn't lie? Even the person who prides herself on her honesty may be lying to herself about the reason she is brutally honest. T. S. Eliot wrote in "Burnt Norton," FOUR QUARTETS, "human kind / Cannot bear very much reality." A lot of lies are used to cover the reality we can't bear, whether it is the reality of a dress size, of a partner's infidelity,, or of the gap between who we want others to think we are and who we really are.
Great point, as usual, Janga. Reality is hard to process sometimes. Taking this class on Third World countries sure wakes you up to realities of the most unpleasant kind. Human Beings can be so evil.
I completely understand why it's easier to go through life in ignorance of the things that go on outside our little worlds.
I'm back!
*clambering back aboard the Revenge after walking the dog and getting lunch...
Heavens, Sin. I hope none of us are saints. I think of that as one hell of a heavy halo! The dificulty with defining lies as a do-I-feel-guilty-thing is that some people never feel guilty. Thru a mental infirmaty or the fact that they are born politicians...some people never see a lie as a lie.
Instead it's a choice of being comfortable or not being comfortable. I'm afraid sometimes that the kids growing up are going to have a real hard time with this one. Because they don't understand how their comfort costs another person.
Which explains a lot of the evils going on in third world countries, eh, Terrio?
And lies really are all about being comfortable. Not making that trip, not working those extra hours, not having to see that face, hear that response, etc.
So, I'm curious, with Tessa's book...was it the lie that pissed you off or the response to the lie? Because that is what drives me batty...the lie has to be sold to me as a reader... Or I just don't buy any of it.
And when I wear white pants I want to be told I look like I'm in full sail...
(Don't worry, I buy them but I never wear them. I always feel braver in the dressing room. Though for me, it's more about how I know I'll spill ketchup on them the very first time I wear them than how broad my ass will look!)
Ah, Janga...and we wind back to the definition of reality... I love it. Humankind cannot bear too much reality.
And truth is reality...maybe. Lies are fantasy? Lies are unreal?
I am dancing inside, crew. I adore the philosophy of words. And reality is so subjective...
Yes, the worse lies are the lies of silence. I spoke up about something at RT that I found extremely offensive...to not say something was to condone it. To speak up was risky but to not was even riskier. To my soul.
And in the end, isn't that what it is all about? The soul/spirit? What do lies cost?
I also agree that keeping track of lies is exhausting. The trouble with truth is how to wield the truth responsibly. The key being empathy. There is never a good excuse for hurting another person with a slap of truth. Be gentle, be funny, be kind.
No matter what, be kind.
Chance said: Doesn’t science lie…? Especially when it comes to interpreting data. All to often it a matter of who is paying for the study!
There are always temptations to cheat, to ignore the data points that don't fit in with the theory, to claim greater significance than the measurements warrant and so on.
Scientists rarely succumb to these temptations though. You see, if the results look at all interesting, other scientists will try to reproduce them and will take great delight in shooting down the pet ideas!
As Terri says somewhere, "O what a tangled web we weave when first we practise to deceive". Once you start to meddle with the truth, like the sorcerer's apprentice, it can rapidly get out of hand!
Goodness, like Marnee I'm overwhelmed by the volume of comments. I had the feeling that this would be a corker when I logged in over breakfast.
To get to the essence, I think that we all like our illusions, and some little white lies to maintain them are understandable and forgivable.
The more insidious lies, covering deceit and unfaithfulness are unforgivable, as are the spiteful lies aimed at humiliation.
In fiction anything goes. :lol:
On a point of clarity, I'm guessing that 'white pants' are what I would call 'ladies trousers' and not the undergarment that goes under them. :?
Sin is always setting my mind boggling over such issues! :D
Yeah, Q, white trouser pants. :) Sorry my buddy across the pond. I just can't seem to get my point across to you this week. :(
OK, Q, ya got me. Science doesn't lie. But scientists can if they succumb to the pressure and allow themselves to be bought. Though most data can be skued to support one thing or another, can't it?
Though, I know! I know! The SCIENCE doesn't lie... I get it!
That drives me batty is when the 'truth' is used to humiliate, period. I honestly think that is more despicable then lies.
That could be one gnarly villain...the one that bludgeons with the truth.
Sin - I think he likes to think of white pants as the undergarments in question... ;)
I've never really put much thought into how much my characters lie to each other. Now I'll have to go through my stories and check ;)
Hee, hee. That's funny! I'm lucky in this regards simply because having a main character that is a pirate...well, he lies a lot! And Miranda, she does a lot of deception by not answering or not saying...a more subtle form of lying.
So, it's a subject close to my heart. Though I am overwhelmed with how the topic took off.
I would imagine there is more that you suspect, Missy... If nothing else, a lot of lying to themselves about what they are feeling, what their relationship means...all of that.
Sorry, took in the festival down at the oceanfront. Beautiful night by the water.
I think the major cause or symptom of the travesties of the Third World are the extremes they face. Extreme poverty, extreme suffering extreme ignorance (as in non-educated), extreme violence. When the boat is sinking and everything is a matter of surviving, humanity sort of goes out the window.
And in Tessa's book, the lie didn't bother me because his intention behind the lie was really good. Then, as with these kinds of things, it progressed and somewhere he missed the chance to come clean. But her reaction when she found out is what ticked me off. Tessa just has a way of making you fall in love with the hero to the point that you'll forgive him anything. I read the entire book in one afternoon and I haven't done that in years. In a couple of months, y'all will get to see for yourselves.
Ah, I was thinking of the way the so-called First World countries treat the Third World without consideration for the consideration of their poverty.
BTW, I just finished a SEP book. And I have a Kleypass next on the list. You all inspired me to try these authors I'm not familiar with...
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