Alt Vs. Actual
How does one differentiate between alternative worlds/history and the ‘real’ thing? (Though you all know my argument with the word ‘real’. So I’ll go for actual history. Though I do think that could be debated also. Since history is recorded by survivors and winners and all depends on the perspective…)
But I digress.
I don’t write in the ‘real’ world. Or the actual world. I write alternate world fiction or completely different world fiction. Yes, I sometimes involve aliens, fairies, and witches…but I’m not terrible content with the classification of paranormal. I mean, so my characters do magic…that isn’t the defining plot point of the books! If your characters have hot sex, but it’s more about falling in love, then it isn’t erotic, right? It’s erotica or erotic romance… So? My lead can do magic, or is an alien, or a fairy…that’s just part of who they are…
Damn it, I’m digressing again!
I want to write about how obvious does one make it to the reader that this isn’t your ‘real’ world. Do you state it up front, big letters… ALTERNATE WORLD or do you sprinkle it in, enlighten them slowly? In A Caribbean Spell, set in a Caribbean of the 1690s, my people are much more liberal in outlook, much more open to strangers, less formal, less religious bound, more open to believing in magic…than how it was in the ‘real’ world.
But I’ve been dinged in contests for how ‘unrealistic’ this is. And my mentor has commented that this isn’t believable. Even though the book is labeled as a paranormal.
Drat. So, I wrestle with the conflict, again, of how much to reveal up front and when. Now, my sister has read A Caribbean Spell and floated through it, no argument. She reads mostly scifi/fantasy and had no internal censors throwing up flashing signs to disrupt her reading. (As my mentor did.)
What does a writer do? When this book sees a bookshelf, I would not expect it to be shelved with historical romance. I actually think it might slide into the scifi/fantasy shelves… But I have no control over that, of course. Do I write for the occasional historical reader, who might pick it up and then be gnashing their teeth at my lapses regarding ‘real’ history? Do I assume they need a big flashing neon sign on the book, pointing out with bluntness and regularity that this is an ALTERNATE WORLD?
Or do I sedately assume they will see the small and subtle clues from the start, or the blurb, and either not buy the book, or be aware that this is not a regular historical romance/adventure?
Or do I assume the books will be picked up by the more freewheeling fantasy adventure reader, who will relish the small differences? Or more accurately, not even see them? Or care about them?
Yes, all fiction is ‘unreal’ but let’s face it, the historical set have very strict standards for trampling, or tiptoeing, all over history. (Yes, Hel, I muck about with when coffee and chocolate enter the pubic awareness…and where they are grown.) (I just couldn’t create a world where the two weren’t readily available. Have mercy on me! And remember, this is set in an ALTERNATE WORLD. It’s smaller, the equator is further north than in the ‘real’ world…)
A more blatant paranormal might find these waters less treacherous…or not. I actually don’t read a great deal of paranormal. (But that is a blog for another day! To read what you write or to not read what you write, that is the question…for another day!) And I came from a history of reading mostly fantasy so the entire historically accurate debate never came up. (If I read a historical book, yes…I do want accuracy, as far as historical facts go.)
If I read science fiction, I want it to seem plausible. If a mystery be set in a town I know, I want it to be the town I know! I’m just like everybody else.
The question is, how much is enough with differentiating between the ‘real’ and the ‘not real’? The accurate and the different accurate? Without wanting to trample on expectations, but not wanting to treat the reader like an ignorant twit… (As tempting as that is sometimes…)
I wonder if a publisher would go for one of those computer voice things like the greeting cards have now… “Warning! This is a book set in an alternate world! If you wish to read about REAL pirates, set this book down and look elsewhere. Thank you.”
Use a disclaimer? Color the sea purple? I have the same problem with the newest of my MSs… The Changed World…our changed world…or should I give up and just make it a totally different place, different planet? Would Planet of the Apes have carried the same punch if the Statue of Liberty hadn’t been in that final scene?
Thoughts? Helpful suggestions? Rotten fruit? Opinions? Without getting into the us vs. them debate? (This is not a fantasy vs. romance blog, really. Hel, I’m not kidding. It isn’t.) I really want to get some opinions here!
Books by the Crew
103 comments:
Chance, I think it is all a matter of the reader's cultural background. I read your alternate world with no problem at all. Riding the 'currents of space and time' was as natural to me as driving up the motorway in this world.
But then I'm familiar with 'the many worlds' interpretation of quantum theory.The concept of alternate universes is as familiar to cosmologists as bread and butter is to Helli.
Chance, I think that this may be a case where a prologue could clarify the nature of your book.
The scientists/philosophers in Miranda's 'home world' could be discussing the theory of travelling between worlds. Helli could be portrayed as a mathematical genius in a parallel universe.
You could make contact with this world through the strangeness of quantum mechanics. It really is completely weird at the level of atoms ... you have no idea! :lol:
I haven't read your stories yet, Chancey, but I'll just be general here. I think readers come at a story with at least a few basic assumptions. And if a book doesn't live up to those expectations, a reader can feel tricked a little by stuff like that. Some readers dig being tricked or surprised. But many don't.
I think it'd need to be clear to the reader from the beginning that it's an alternate world. I don't think you need to label it ALTERNATE WORLD, but I think you'd have to find a way to make sure your reader moved forward through your story with the appropriate assumptions.
I don't think most readers would have difficulty with an alternate world if they were expecting an alternate world, no matter how steeped in romance genre "internal censors." I mean, look what's going on with steampunk these days.
I'm afraid I am not the person to ask on this one. I read in clueless mode unless it's the characters behavior in question. I never think, "Was that road really connected to that road?"
But I have to admit, the bit about the equator not being where the equator is threw me. I think there are things you can change, and things you can't. Though I don't like the word "can't" so maybe I'll say "shouldn't".
Even an alternate world has to fit some kind of understanding and context in the reader's mind. Say you did put the story on another planet, the reader subconciously assumes gravity exists unless you state otherwise.
I haven't read your entire story, but I know The Changed World is sort of set in the future, but on this planet. The moment you decide "on this planet" be it real or alternate, there are facts planted in the reader's mind. You have the freedom to play with those facts, but in some cases, the reader is not going to buy what you're selling. Certain realities are harder to alter than others.
Morning!
I haven't read your story yet either but I'm someone who reads taking the author's words and worlds as they present them.
In historicals I DO NOT question anything. I'm reading to be entertained and taken away to a new world - I don't want to worry about silly facts. For instance I would never be a reader who says "Coffee wasn't really around at that time." For me, I'm there to take a ride with the author to wherever they want to take me.
But, I do agree with Bo'Sun - when you set something here on Earth, there are certain expectations of facts that are really hard to change and keep reader buy in.
Actually I wouldn't have a problem with the introduction of chocolate and coffee in 1690s. They both existed by then--though chocolate wasn't chocolate bars (like we'd eat now)--so long as they were drinking "hot chocolate", I'd be cool. I might even suspend belief if they made a sort of brownie type thing (it worked in A Knight in Shining Armor)--so long as they aren't eating bonbons, I'd be alright with those two things.
http://www.thenibble.com/REVIEWS/MAIN/beverages/coffees/history3.asp
If you have a version of Starbuck's in Port Royal, I would wonder what the hell you were about. I mean, sure there were coffeehouses...but they weren't Starbucks.
And I believe that people in 1690s believed in magic--I mean, they were burning witches during this period, they believed in it--but they weren't cool about it. So if no one is trying to hide their magical skills, et al, then I'd have a problem with it. Historically people are VERY religious. There's no escaping that. We went on several Crusades just to prove how for it we were. Then there was all the witch burning. A 100 years previous to your setting, you have England going back and forth between Catholic and Protestant (Bloody Mary and Elizabeth I)--religion (and the TRUE religion) IS a huge deal. And none of those periods glorified paganism or witchcraft.
I could be cool with sex being slightly more lax during this period. (Other than the Puritans, I believe it probably was. And the Puritans probably weren't all bad.)
So I could handle the sex, the chocolate and the coffee--but I couldn't handle the witchcraft. Not because I have a problem with it but because the average 1690 superstition riddled person probably did.
SOooooo, I don't think you need to put an opening page that says, "This is an alternate universe"--what I think works for writers who do this sort of thing is that the heroine KNOWS that the average 1690 person would not be cool about witchcraft and would question this society--and look for clues as to why this is cool here. AND then you figure out with the heroine, voila, it's an alternate universe.
But again, I'd assume your fiction would be lodged with Sci/Fi fiction rather than historical (which it's not) or romance (which you claim isn't really)--and Sci/Fi people are a different breed. I don't think they'd care. I think you just need to figure out your audience--and what you want to read--and write for yourself and them.
Contests for romance fiction is very, very, very, very, very, very subjective. Usually judged by unpublished writers. Writers who probably only read historical fiction and is probably pissed off about how little history is actually in the fiction and are writing books with lots of historical fact. Therefore, your story is going to set them off by the first line. And it wasn't for anything you did or didn't do (other than maybe enter a contest your story didn't necessarily fit)--but because your contest audience is rather narrow-minded.
Magic is not for the narrow-minded.
I think readers come at a story with at least a few basic assumptions. And if a book doesn’t live up to those expectations, a reader can feel tricked a little by stuff like that. Some readers dig being tricked or surprised. But many don’t.
This is so true. I can't tell you how much I loathe the TV show LOST for this reason. I don't mind being tricked a little, but not constantly and you can't change the rules to suit your story in mid story line. (Although I think Sherrilyn Kenyon changes her rules, but she makes it clear the rules are changing...and as a reader you pick up on that.)
You have to make it clear. You can't just assume people reading your story have the same assumptions and understanding of the rules and setting as you do. If you want them to have your assumptions, you need to tell us what the assumptions are.
I don’t want to worry about silly facts
This historian in me just shuddered at this sentence. *LOL*
But on the upside, Chance, you can see: there are both kinds of readers.
LOL! Hellie - if it was a history book then I would be all over the facts. But in a fictional book I just want to be so into the story and writing that I don't even think about facts. It should just flow naturally and I would hope my brain wouldn't stop to pick up on little things.
Ah, Q! Of course you'd see the science side of traveling through space and time and alternate worlds. It is a very quantum way of looking at things!
I had a prologue and I was thinking of putting it back in, honestly. States right up front the entire theme of the currents of time and space and how riders travel them... Good idea!
Marn - So true! Steampunk turns so many concepts on their heads! A real stew pot of paranormal, fantasy and history...been some years since I read any, but looking at the covers and blurbs, I can see how it's really mutated.
Wish I fit into that genre!
But I like the idea of simply being clear from the beginning. I don't want to pretend to be one thing or deliberately trick anyone or alienate anyone.
With the contests, I entered as a paranormal, assuming the judges would be open-minded to taking a different view of the world... Perhaps if I can come up with a fast way to establish how different this Caribbean is I won't run into the problem... But I really don't want to make the ocean purple! ;)
Terrio! If the world were smaller, everything shrinks and continental drift...that's how the equator could be further north. I didn't state that very well! Not so much in the north, but the Caribbean would be more southern. Take the globe and push the land masses closer...
Our earth settled where it is by chance. In my alternate worlds, chance saw things settle differently!
Better?
I mean, I'm not trying to totally challenge the idea of how geometry works!
Though I wonder...
No, won't go there!
Oh! This is interesting! I can see your dilemma. I had a bit of a similar one with my first manuscript set in both an alternate world and the real world. I wondered if the reader would get where that alternate world was - - up on a cloud, in the future, another planet? Where were these people? In my early crits, some people did ask. I thought a prologue set in the alternate world was the answer, but ultimately cut it (as simply too much backstory before getting to the hero and heroine). But this might work, as Q suggests, to clarify the nature of your work. Is this assuming though that you start in a real world and bring in the parallel world? The contrast could be interesting to set things up. Heck, maybe the world is ending (in the real world) and some mad scientists create or discover the alternate world. Or mabye it's someone's utopian idea of what they'd like that world to be- - with messed up results. Moved the equator? That could open another can of worms if you had to explain the science and consequences. You might wind up trading historical accuracy for scientific plausibility. Maybe not mention the equator moving if you don't want to go there. :) The point is, I think if you come up with a plausible scenario for the existance of the alternate world, then you'd be free to bend the existing real history.
I think what I would keep in mind is that built in suspension of disbelief in your reader. They will go with it if you say with confidence this is how it is and don't back yourself into too many corners.
Sabrina, you read so many genres for your site, I figure you would slide by the strangeness, looking for the action, the relationship...
I like to play with people...and the what-ifs of history and society. What if religion didn't have such a strict hold on society? What if Catholocism wasn't ruled by an iron fist in rome? What if Luther hadn't had something to rail against? How would that have changed history?
An alternate history! But not a historical!
Ok, I probably will get thrown off the ship here , but I have to support Chance on this!
First, when I pick up a book, ANY book, I know O.K. this is a pretend, make believe story PERIOD. Therefore, yes some of the facts, truths ect may be misconstrued a bit. NOW, with that being said, I agree with Hellie and I do believe a true historical romance does need to be accurate, both as a reader and a writer.
But why is this alternative world thing such a problem with readers, contest,other writers ect, ITS ALL PRETEND!! True??
I think the problem is paranormal is way to generalized of a genre. Heck now Steampunk has it's own genre and is the "up and coming" thing. So where does Chances book fit in? Well how about alternative romantic adventure? I have to agree with Q, maybe a prologue or short statement at the start of the book that explains, this is a alternative world story may help and clarify the story setting. Maybe this also should be sent with when submitting to contests, agents, ect. It may help aleviate some confusion for those who cannot PRETEND!! LOL!!
Ok, last thought, add some wacky words, no one can understand and submit it to Steampunk, it will sell then! UGH!!!!! (ok sorry, that was catty, not a fan of this new craze at all!)
Have a wonderful and hopefully warm weekend! windchill here this am -40!! Yup that is negative 40 with windchill!
Chance - That does make more sense and I figured the tiny bit about the equator was out of context so I didn't have all the info. I just knew that while reading your blog, that was the only part that jumped out at me to say, "Now wait a minute!"
But you have to realize, chance or no, EARTH comes with facts in a reader's mind. Hard and fast facts. You can adjust those, but the harder the fact, the harder to adjust and make it work for a reader.
And the equator is a pretty hard fact. Even if it's imaginary. LOL!
Oh! Chance, your explanation on moving the equator works for me. *LOL* I hadn't looked at the comments for a while during writing my post. Yes, I do think you can tackle the science and get the reader to say, why not? Even make the ocean purple. Who knows how that might have happened? :)
But why is this alternative world thing such a problem with readers, contest,other writers ect, ITS ALL PRETEND!! True??
Because romance readers and sci/fi-fantasy readers are two different breeds and they're very territorial about expectations. Those readers who willingly read both genres are actually a minority.
I don't really care for the "it's all pretend" argument. Technically yes, but in order for me to suspend reality to engage in that world, you have to make the story believable. It may be pretend, but it HAS to be believable.
Which leads me to face Captain Hellion.
No, no Starbucks-o! But definately, my Port Royal and how the people are flies in the face of how society developed...in our world. Which is the key of how where my pirate is set and how it developed.
Puritans weren't so sour, but more joyous. The crusades succeeded so well, there are almost no Muslims, Eastern Europe never grew into the the political or military powerhouses... Elizabeth married and had children. The church wasn't centered in Rome, but each country basically had their own version of Catholicism. Italy is two countries...
And England, France and Spain are in a constant state of general hostility...
My witch lands in a Port Royal that realizes she is different, but doesn't pounce on her, or judge her because she doesn't fit into a mold. And she does comment here and there that this is odd...but she also has experience with different realities so she knows how to slide beneath the radar until she is sure how the wind blows.
Remember, she can step back into the currents of time and trusts the powers that guide her to keep her safe...
Reg. readers, I don't want to alienate anyone because of a cover or a title or where a publisher dictates my books end up shelved. So, I do want to make it clear from the beginning that this won't meet the expectations of classic romance/historical readers.
With contests, one thing about the RWA contests, they do have categories I should fit into. Judges who work with paranormals should be able to focus beyond historical tidbits and look at a characters, relationships...etc. This is what frustrated the hell out me!
I don't know, there's a difference between altering history, and re-writing it altogether.
And I was of the IT'S ALL PRETEND argument for a long time. But I'm understanding more now that even fiction stories have to fit into some kind of understanding in the reader's mind. As Hellie says, it has to be believable.
You can alter all these things, provided you a) convey clear reasons and circumstances to explain the alterations and b) remain consistent in the new rules you've created.
And saying IT'S AN ALTERNATE WORLD is not enough explanation for the reader to just go along with you.
You have to make it clear. You can’t just assume people reading your story have the same assumptions and understanding of the rules and setting as you do. If you want them to have your assumptions, you need to tell us what the assumptions are.
Exactly! So, how plain do I make it? And how much explaining can I get away with, without piling on the omnipotent movie voiceover? How can I convince th unsuspecting reader to keep moving through the book, to pick up the bits as I let them go, presenting the world little by little?
When Miranda lands somewhere, it doesn't come with an instruction book. She has to tread carefully, without sacrificing who she is...afterall, she has faith she was dropped somewhere and somewhen for a reason...that's her faith in action!
No one likes to be lectured...I assume! ;)
I'm going to jump on the prologue bandwagon but not really a prologue.
One or two paragraphs on the first page would be a great introduction. This type of books allows for this omniscient narrator intro. Even something that says, "The world and events in this book are not of the history you know, but of a different history. One similar but different."
Not this, obviously, but like it. States right up front, STAY WITH ME, YOU'LL UNDERSTAND AS WE GO!
With contests, one thing about the RWA contests, they do have categories I should fit into. Judges who work with paranormals should be able to focus beyond historical tidbits and look at a characters, relationships…etc.
No. Because your stories are more adventure/plot-oriented than romance oriented. You're breaking the CARDINAL rule above all other rules.
Yeah, I agree with Hellie. You're giving romance readers much more credit than they deserve. LOL! (I include myself in this group, so I can say it.)
Our boundaries are really quite narrow.
Good morning, Jane!
I do have some made up words for the urban fantasy...a sort of abreviated English. I would assume people will make the connection...but is that a good thing or a bad thing?
I want some connection to the world we all know, but I also want it to be new, different...
And I agree, it is all pretend. To a degree. People who read historicals do want real history and I get that. They aren't my audience... I think the bit of prologue I took out needs to go back in... More of an entry from the journal of the senior rider who teachers Miranda how to do what she does...reflecting on the vagaries of the currents of time... Hmmmmm!
You'll enjoy the eventual blog I've got that explores your disdain for Steampunk, Jane-o!
And England, France and Spain are in a constant state of general hostility…
So this stays the same. Interesting.
And the fact there are almost no Muslims...that should alienate some people. *LOL* I mean, I know it's pretend, but I'd be offended if something I identify myself with was obliterated. *LOL*
my Port Royal and how the people are flies in the face of how society developed…in our world.
I love the alternate world you describe, especially the idea that Elizabeth married and had children. It makes me think that it would be great to have a center with this...that Miranda is aware of the real history.
As for if it's a romance, I do go with the relationship between the hero and heroine has to be more important than anything they discover on the journey. Then anything goes. :)
Melissa - The trick is how much to explain up front...and the idea that there are multiple alternate worlds spinning through time and space is a hard one for most people to grasp.... The old 'what-if' game.
What if the Revolutionary War had failed?
What if the south had won the Civil War?
What if the crusades had been reversed and the Muslims had roared into Europe on jihad?
What if Elizabeth had married and established a royal ine?
What if...
What if...
What if I'd taken the other route to work? Bought that lottery ticket? Gone on that date instead of this one?
What if all those choice exhist, somewhere...
Boggles the mind. And this is the world Miranda travels in.
I'm gonna go get the initial introduction and post it...
Hel, don't you find it ironic that the paranormal books literally turn the idea of believability on it's head and no one really squacks... Even the state of sex in current historicals, which I know you loath...
But I can't plop a witch into aPort Royal and not immediately have judges blinking? Even when it's a paranormal, with judges for paranormals... If I tossed in a vampire, they'd be happy...
Yup, it's all pretend, but it has to be a pretend they already embrace. I admit, I'm moving into a pretend that is hard to encompass with one word, like vampire.
I wish the Science Fiction/Fantasy Writers of America had a framework like RWA. They don't. But I really thought the RWA and romance in general had moved beyond such narrow definitions of what constitutes romance...a book that includes a romance as a part, not the only focus...
Is it really so blatant that I'm in the wrong place and simply don't fit into any of it?
The trick is how much to explain up front…
Isn't that the truth! That's the hardest thing about a paranormal.
I''d say jump in with one of those obviously "alternate" versions of history and that would set up we're not in Kansas anymore!
Sorry, Chance, but you might have made a slightly off assumption about romance. Though there are awards for books that only contain romantic elements, being qualified as a romance still requires the romance be the focal point of the book.
“The world and events in this book are not of the history you know, but of a different history. One similar but different.”
This makes me laugh. Like the voice over intro for Star Trek. Though that fits. *LOL*
So, this is the initial set up for A Caribbean Spell...
The root of the word ‘creativity’ rests in the word creation. There is power in words—and power in the act of creation. It is thought that every great act of creation is a bud on the World Tree.
The World Tree; a complex arrangement of alternative universes. A collection of great and sometimes not-so-great choices. Known also as the Greater Currents. And home to new buds of creativity.
The buds rise from writings, dramas, songs, stories and more. Whether these become branches depends upon the belief of the audience. And the worlds that flourish in the common psyche of the audience, the actors, musicians, writers, dancers and dreamers power that bud’s growth.
That is one theory. Another is that these worlds exist before they are touched by creators. That they bump against a creative mind in an alternative reality and are brought forward as individual endeavors.
But we who ride the currents, flowing from branch to branch, from one era to another? We have no theories——we simply enjoy the ride…
from the writings of Matthew, one of the early Riders.
Our boundaries are really quite narrow.
And that's just readers. The boundaries for a JUDGE is much more narrow.
Yup, Hel...the movie announcer voice over... As the camera sweeps over the world, the announcer explains...
OK, so I made assumptions about romance and how open it had become. I looked at the categories in contests and assumed there was room for me.
Yeah, I'm disappointed and discouraged.
I like this as an intro! It's great foreshadowing.
The only thing in my mind though is, is this going to be a romance? I could see this as an intro to a romance.
I'd have to say, the only "deception" I'd be worried about is not whether the history in the alternate world (which I'd freely accept) was accurate, but whether I was reading a romance.
Even when it’s a paranormal, with judges for paranormals… If I tossed in a vampire, they’d be happy…
I don't think so. They wouldn't be happy unless the vampire was in a romance. :)
Sherrilyn Kenyon got rejected left, right, and sideways for her Dark-Hunter novels. She eventually got published because it was a really great world and a really great story--though keep in mind, her story does have romance as the FOCAL point of each story and the adventure/dark-hunter history is secondary.
You'll find a place to belong. It may even be under RWA, but I don't believe it will be under the RWA we have now.
I have a couple who fall in love, who fight tooth and nail for each other. Who struggle with having a relationship in the midst of sailing against odds to save the world... Why isn't this a romance?
In my urban fantasy I have a couple. One who is desperately wounded and all but unable to embrace softer emotions and a man who is not only determined to save her life against all odds, but teach her that she can love and survive it... Why isn't this a romance?
I'm willing to embrace that the driving thread isn't the romance, yet...it is...
That is a good intro and would establish immediately that the reader should make no assumptions about the worlds he/she is about to enter.
But at the same time, as a person who has never been a scifi/fantasy reader, that just makes me go, "Huh?"
I also think it's a lot HARDER to create an alternate history than it is to create an alternate modern urban fantasy.
Because once you make the decision that Elizabeth I marries and has kids, this effects the rest of Europe. Once you have the American Civil War won by the Confederates, it effects the rest of the world. And then what if you play what if and let Hitler win--does ANYONE want to live in that alternate world where clearly evil triumphs and goodness is enslaved?
It is INTERESTING, but is it a world we can willing go into and understand a heroine who lives there. Because a heroine who LIVES in this alternate history comes with all new assumptions and beliefs. In a world where the Confederates won, she may believe black people are less valuable than white people; and in a world where Hitler wins, IF there are any Jews left, she believes Jews are liars, thieves, and degenerates. Because she comes from a world that is immersed in those assumptions, we can't blame her--but can we truly embrace someone like that as a hero?
I really don't think you're writing romance, but that doesn't mean you don't belong here or in RWA. Writing and crafting a good story is universal. Structures, techniques, and the feelings and experiences of those of us trying to write anything are the same.
A resource is a resource and I say use all the resources you can find.
Melissa - Glad you liked it.
Terrio - Would it make you a bit more willing to suspend disbelief until you figured it out?
Hel - I wonder. I really do...
Picture an old fashioned scale.
You put the elements of the story on the scale. The romance on one side, the adventure/fantasy on the other. Which side of the scale would weigh heavier?
If it's not the romance, then you have a book with romantic elements. Which is pretty much every other book ever written. LOL!
Doesn't make it a bad thing. Hell, you have a lot more options than the rest of us.
I have to say, this is one of the best discussions we've had on this blog. Kudos everyone!
Chance - Honestly, it's not my kind of book. That means absolutely nothing in what you're doing. I'm one boring person living in a very little world. You've got much bigger realms to conquer than little old me. :)
But what I can see is that you have an amazing, unique voice. You have an incredibly creative story that will stand out from all the others on the shelves. It's impossible for this stuff not to find a home. You've got all the elements right there.
It doesn't have to be my kind of book for me to recognize the potential and the audience that is drooling for this kind of thing.
True, Hel...these worlds aren't necessarily worlds that we would find understandable. But elements from these worlds would blend with our modern world. Because somethings don't change. How people strive for justice, for identity.
A world where the Civil War was won by the south wouldn't necessarily dictate those values...the south wasn't in agreement over why they were fighting...
The alternate worlds Miranda sails through are changed in small ways, not just the larger pictures.
And a world where the Christians thoroughly won the crusades is just one aspect I used to simplify the world. Just as I wiped out Rome as the center of Catholicism. And left out the whole developement of Northern Europe...and the states of war between France, England and Spain are purely based on monetary things. Though Spain is still a bit more driven by religion... (Personally, I think that is more 'real' than how history paints it all!)
It's a fun world to play with.
I do think a writer could create a world where the south won the civil war and never touch upon the place slavery played in the struggle...if one placed the action far enough away from the actual war...and people are still people.
I guess it all depends on how cynical one is about how people move toward a common consenses of reality... Ooops, another blog!
Ah, Terrio...thank you!
And I don't think you have as narrow an imagination as you think you have...you just don't see a reason for stretching it. But you aren't shutting it down.
There is a real difference between the simple act of accepting and rejecting. You accept a limit in what you find reasonable, but you don't reject.
Bless you for that!
I do think a writer could create a world where the south won the civil war and never touch upon the place slavery played in the struggle…if one placed the action far enough away from the actual war…and people are still people.
Yes and no.
Being the South lost (i.e. the 'good' guys won, if slavery was the real issue--and I agree, it wasn't the ONLY issue or even the biggest issue; and the North was certainly no more PC than the South during that period), and it took another 100 years for blacks to get equal rights (at least in the technical sense), if the South WON--how much longer would it take the blacks to get their rights? Because if the South won doesn't mean they'd ever get of slavery....
At best, it only meant we had another Civil War to abolish it because you can't convince me it would have taken anything less than a war to abolish it.
Chance I SWEAR that I read that you were disappointed and discouraged. Hmm … I Must have inadvertently popped into an alternative universe.
Well
Don't be disappointed and discouraged Chance. You just had a revelation ... made an important discovery. The world of RWA is not exactly the world that you thought it was. It is a different reality. It is An Alternative reality from the Science Fiction/Fantasy Writers of America.
Congratulations my dear, you just proved your theory that more than one Reality can exist at the same time. How does it feel to be like one of your characters … riding the currents, flowing from branch to branch… Riding the literary currents, flowing from RWA branch to SFFWA branch that is.
This IS one of the more interesting discussions we've had on this blog. *LOL*
I agree with Bo'sun. I think you should take advantage of the resources RWA offers; there are romantic elements within the story. However, I also agree, that your story is probably more mainstream fiction (probably as alternative historical fiction or sci/fi fantasy) than regular romance.
I think you're more like a Terry Brooks sort of writer--and he's certainly not doing badly for himself, is he?
Yeah, Hel...it would have taken time. But I don't know that it would have taken a war. Because cotton and tobacco would have eventually lost the war against industrialization.
I've read alternate history that existed in this world, I just don't remember the particulars.
And I'd like to think that without the extreme sides of both arguments having a war to wage, some middle ground would have developed. Slavery would have proven an institution that simply didn't work...
At least I'd like to believe that is how it would have worked out. :)
Melissa - Yeah, I do feel a bit tricked. Yet, Terrio is right that the resources are still available to me and should be something I take full advantage of...
Might explain why I did feel like an alien at the Nationals in DC. I just don't really speak the language. Or at the least, I exist in a reality that is different than the rest...
Of course, as you say, that proves my point! All these realities exist, side by side.
Hellie - If you find this intersting, I expect the follow up blog next Friday will spark some interest...
*grin
Wait fer it.
Hel - Would it shock you to know I never read Terry Brooks? I sold a hell of a lot of his books, but the massive fantasy series of old, that I once dove into with energy and verve...totally send me screaming in the other direction now.
But he is good company to be in, I grant you that.
And oh, how I wish SFWA had a format to encourage the budding author as RWA does. Though I bet I'd still feel like an alien there... I'm not enough of a fanatic.
In anything I embrace, perhaps.
Save for the human capacity to imagine...anything. I am a bit of a fanatic regarding that!
Chance, it's a great story. It's not homeless. It's more mainstream then you might have thought.
From your description of your hero and heroine, I'm shifting that it could be a romance. I wonder if Sherrilyn Kenyon's earlier versions (the rejected versions even) had less focus on the romance? Is it possible to shift the focus of your story to the romance and keep everything you want or would it feel like a compromise?
I like Bo'sun's analogy of the scale. True, nearly every other book out there has romantic elements. Stories with romantic elements are the best books out there, whether written 80 years ago or today.
I just read Hemingway's The Sun Also Rises. Even written in 1926, it's still basically timeless as a doomed love story of Jake in love with the party girl Brett. (Man, the drinking that goes on.) And the bull fighting is exciting adventure. It's my sympathy for Jake, though that carried me through. I wasn't upset that there wasn't a happy ending. I didn't want this to be a romance, but in a way it was.
Now, Last Chance is a reader of the huge series. In fact, she prefers the book after book after book way of building a story. The fatter the better.
Of line, she commented...Wonderful discussion this morning!! And passionate.
I don't think you really write romance; you are much more fantasy/paranormal; whatever the heck the categories are these days. Although there is romance and sex - sometimes lots of it. Being a sexual witch, to me, wouldn't automatically make it romance. If that was totally the focus of the book and she was a wild woman who romped through the world having sex, it would be pure eroticism. And yes, the stories are about Jack and Miranda and their growing relationship - but to me, the rest of the story is so much more fascinating - I guess my sci-fi/fantasy love shines through with that.
Seems to me that possibly you've wandered into the romance area because of the system they have set up. I am assuming it is a much more welcoming world than the stodgy sci-fi/fantasy groups? Which is so ironic; their stories go in every direction yet they tend to be so stodgy and judgmental as people and readers. You would expect open arms for everybody in the genre - but it appears to not be so?
I love your Changed World scenarios - but that is purely sci-fi/fantasy from what I read.
Now, LC has never read romance. Though she did enjoy the Angelique books back in high school... But consider that she stepped out of her comfort zone and picked up a CL Wilson book at the grocery store and got hooked. Same with Kenyon...
And I have to agree with her about SFWA... The fans hold such fabulous conventions that embrace eveything (though they argue like you wouldn't believe! About some of the silliest things!) but there does seem to be a missing platform for the budding writer to use.
I just wish I were comfortable with the idea of using the RWA and not being part of it. Does that make sense?
Chance I think that it is the true Nature of the RWA to encourage the budding author. How could they Not? Their Golden Ruke is: The Heroine ALWAYS gets her HEA.
Hellie, You bring up some valuable points in your last post! I SO agree and think it would be difficult for readers to embrace such hero's in those situations. As a writer, I think it would be hard for me to cross the line of ethics if I was trying to write something like an alternative Civil War or Hitler. No, Don't think I could do it. I will also agree to a point that yes, some things have to be believable, I am just saying for me personally, I dont feel it has to always be about being beleivable, I can work with the "pretend" concept, After I all I really do think I am a princess! LOL!!
I agree with Bo Sun, there is a place for your story Chance and I think it has a very unique voice to it, I have read it, it is so not my kind of thing.I did have two thoughts on it, Number one it kept me involved and entertained and number two, even though I NEVER read outside of historicals, I actually could understand and follow the alternative world idea. It is just finding the right home for it and THATS where your challenge lays, not the story itself, but how and where to market it!
Thanks for not throwing me off the ship Hellie, I can't swim either!
Melissa - Aye, every book that deals with the human experience, will contain some element of romance. I've fought those battles at the scifi/fantasy conventions. Too many of them can be so determined to reject the concepts of romance that they refuse to see what is before their eyes.
It is changing. Due to writers like McCaffrey, Kenyon...even Linnea Sinclair. Charles deLint, Nina Kiriki Hoffman...and the authors who wrote what was once called Magical Realism.
I'd like the think several of those same writers will change the confines of romance. Scale not withstanding.
I see a circle, no up or down, just around.
And yes, I make myself dizzy sometimes!
I don't read Nora Roberts, but I want to write contemporary romance...so no it doesn't shock me that you haven't read Terry Brooks.
I do find it hilarious that massive fantasy series send you screaming, when you admitted you had like 29 or 30 stories just about the Caribbean Spells series. If that's not a sci-fi/fantasy series ala Terry Brooks, I don't know what is.
Too many of them can be so determined to reject the concepts of romance that they refuse to see what is before their eyes.
That's because you're probably arguing with boys. Boys are dumb about romance.
Could I change the story to be more romance? Not without losing the very elements of motivation I built into the story.
Maybe I'm just too 'real' world orientated. And the 'real' world plays a larger part in day to day existance than romance. Romance and the need/desire for love is likely the prime motivator of most people, but it is generally buried under the 'real' demands of survival.
I can pretend only so far? Perhaps this why the HEA escapes me all to often. HEA denotes an ending of struggle. But as long as their is struggle, there is life. Though struggle may not be the right word...
Ah, but all of Terry's books were huge. Mine are more like Edgar Rice Burroughs in length... Fast reads, slender volumes. Granted, each end up at about 100k. But compared to Terry Brooks? I don't have a word count for his individual volumes, but I bet they are nearly twice that! Or 3x that!
I have never claimed to make a whole lot of sense in what I read...honestly!
That’s because you’re probably arguing with boys. Boys are dumb about romance.
Oh, so right! And girls that so desperately want to fit in they argue like boys!
It is changing, really...
I had not realised that the equator had moved North! I think you need some care with that. The equator, by definition, is mid-way between the poles, so can't move North. The magnetic equator can move, because the magnetic poles move.
I think that I would classify the book as 'romantic fantasy'. I note that Jayne Ann Krentz writes historicals as Amanda Quick, fantasy as Jayne Castle, Contemp as Stephanie James. All have powerful romantic themes. So perhaps you need a different pseudonym for each genre when established so that people know what to expect!
I suspect that the historians here are thinking that we are talking time travel, so insist on historical accuracy. Once it is grasped that you are travelling in both SPACE and TIME then there is no requirement whatever to retain historical accuracy. The closer that the worlds reside in space-time, the closer their histories can be.
Terri said: But you have to realise, chance or no, EARTH comes with facts in a reader’s mind. Hard and fast facts. You can adjust those, but the harder the fact, the harder to adjust and make it work for a reader.
In a parallel World its a DIFFERENT Earth Terri. It has evolved on a different space-time trajectory, and can be close or far from the Earth we know.
Heck, so many posts, I'll have to come back later to read the others!
I don't think of HEAs (on the whole) as an end of struggle. I think of it more as a friendly truce and a willingness to have each other's backs come what comes tomorrow.
And if love is the motivator, then how can it help but permeate "real world" struggles?
Thanks, Jane-o... Me present writing is a bit of an orphan... In fact so much an orphan that they huddle under the bridges, unsure of where to go for sustenance. The Catholic orphanage? (Historicals?) The Budhist orphanage? (magical realism?) The one run by the egg-heads? (Science Fiction?)
It's a cold world out there!
But they do huddle together and they aren't alone under that bridge. Someday, we will rise and take over the world!
Bwah ha ha!
And if I don't pull these pajamas off and get Bonnie out for a walk I'm going to be on her shit list for the entire day...
Be back in a bit...
Q - I adore that it is the quantum physicist who gets it! LOL! But it was an English author that first introduced me to the subject. Michael Moorcock. So, I shouldn't be surprised. The Brits gave us Dr. Who!
Hel - I know, it sounds contradictory. But love is a primal motivator that isn't acknowledged or given weight, a real substence. That is my point. It's there, but it's in the backround. It's pervasive, it's necessary, but it isn't talked about.
An employee doesn't moan about how his boss doesn't love him enough, he moans about how his boss doesn't pay him enough. We all know that money is just a substitute for love. Or even a representation of love, but...it isn't called love to the IRS.
So, when I say love is a prime motivator...the need to breath comes first.
And yeah, HEA may be a truce with the stuggle. An acknowledgement of an ally, a partner to help out. But it doesn't deal with the what-happens-next step. And in life, there is always a next.
Damn, I better get!
Q - What is reality in your perception and reality in the perception of the majority of readers is very different. And that's a compliment, in case you're wondering. ;)
See, I could never watch Dr. Who. LOL! Just not for me! But I know it's wildly popular with the Brits.
I see the HEA as the end to ONE struggle, but not all of them. And it's usually the beginning of a new struggle. Many of them. But a story can be a snippet in time and unless you want to write to infinity, you have to have a stopping point somewhere.
when I say love is a prime motivator…the need to breath comes first.
Oh, but in most romances, they aren't looking for love at all in the start. The heroine has no time for love - - saving the world and all. There's nothing wrong with that and the motivation to fight the love (if not the sex - understand you can't have a sexual witch hold out!*LOL*) is maybe Miranda's conflict.
Nora Roberts says that the wonder of romance is that it can be combined successfully with other genres. We have mysteries with romance, sci fi romance, fantasy romance, etc. You see all sorts of books nominated in the book with strong romantic elements category of the Ritas. Maybe that's the category you should enter in contests,Chance.
I admit my problem with what you describe would come with the label. If I read something that's labeled "historical romance," I do have certain expectations of historical accuracy, although I'm not one of the purists who goes beserk if the wrong flower is blooming or a trip is made in an hour less than the actual trip would have taken. OTOH, if I read fantasy, I expect internal consistency, not historical accuracy. I never have problems suspending disbelief when I read Diana Wynn Jones, Patricia Wrede, Jasper Fforde, Terry Pratchett . . .
But even writers like these are sometimes given grief by readers. Wrede's Thirteenth Child provoked great indignation in some quarters because the author omitted Native Americans from her world. There's no way to please everyone.
Yes! The end to one snippet... I guess that's why I'm more comfortable with the HFN stuff.
It's funny, I'm not a physisist, but I totally get the idea of infinite worlds, infinite variety...
Star Trek had that world they stumble on that is a remnant of what was the US... If it can be imagined, I believe it can be possible.
But I'm mad.
Oh, yeah...Melissa, Miranda has worthy issues. And martyr issues... She has lots of issue. And the very idea that sex becomes love frightens the hell out of her!
Janga - I would never call my books historicals. Ever. I worry that a cover or a placement in a bookstore could see some poor reader pick one up and be pissed at me... So, I want the blurb, the title, the excert to make it very plain...
I honestly feel I'm a fantasy author, with romantic elements. But...those who write fantasy might not agree with me! Fantasy can be so strict in it's interpretation...
I keep hoping the blending of genres will eventually see all these walls fall.
But a book with strong romantic elements...yeah, that might be my baliwick afterall.
I'm about to take issue with the "worthy issues" comment, since for me that implies love is not a worthy issue.
All literature can be boiled down to two themes: love and conflict. And those two themes pretty much feed off each other. So I think love is the motivation for people--though it's not just romantic love. There is self-love, parental/child love, love of country, love of wealth and status, et al. And from that love comes conflict.
As Nora says, Love blends with everything.
I honestly feel I’m a fantasy author, with romantic elements. But…those who write fantasy might not agree with me!
Not everyone is going to agree with you. But if you know you're more fantasy with romantic elements, then you should stop fighting to fit in with a group you never wanted to belong with in the first place. You're fighting the wrong battle, IMO, and worse, you're diluting your resources to fight the fight you actually need to win. And aligning yourself with a group you don't really want to belong to sounds like too much like settling--and if you did publish, your readers might feel betrayed and offended that clearly to you and your stories that love doesn't matter as much as everything else.
I think by "worthy issues" Chance means "wondering if she's worthy" of things. That was my take anyway.
Oh, but I agree who cares what the fantasy people think? You are what you are and you'll find a home for these books and readers who love them. Will every reader love them? Nope. Again, who cares! Will the fantasy crowd welcome you with open arms? Maybe not. Not your problem!
Janga boiled it right down, you can't please everyone.
Ah, Hellie. Your bear is stirring. Firstly, Miranda doesn't think she is worthy of love. Nothing about the worth of love as a something to fight for, or as a conflict.
I want to belong to the RWA. I want the romance I write to be seen as romance. I'm not really fighting to win...I'm fighting to understand what is missing and to understand how others view these things.
I'm listening and it isn't about being a voice in the wilderness, but trying to hear the voices around me and trying to seperate things into any sort of common consenses.
Yes, I wish there weren't such tight barriers around how people view different genres and how they shut themselves off from other genres. But I understand they are there.
I'll never please everyone. Not my goal, ever. I'd like to not alienate anyone. People/readers can choose to dislike and not read what I write. That is fine. I hope to head off the objections of the fanatics. Which may be a battle that will never materialize. Or a discussion that wouldn't be worth having in the first place. I don't know, yet.
See, I should be a Chance to English translater. LOL!
Your only goal should be to tell the stories you want to tell and try to find a home for them. The rest is completely out of your hands. You've got to let it go.
Wow, did I really say it so wrongly? I need a translator and I wasn't even in accent. Sigh.
Oh, I don't think it's really a goal to understand, but I am interested. And yes, how others are going to validate or refuse to validate what I write is totally out of my control. I guess I like to be ready for the questions and have some answers other than a blank look or a red face.
But I do want to tell my stories so I don't need a translator! ;)
Too late?
Here's an idea, Chance. I found this web site that seems to distinguish best fantasy books for women...one on the list calls it a "romance masquerading as fantasy" or there was a strong female protagonist. But even this list ruffled some feathers in the comments: women like the same fantasy as women, women don't need a female protagonist over a male, and even the suggestion that this list is a subgenre one found insulting.
Still, maybe yours fits with these types? If nothing else, maybe check out the publishers of each book to find a market for your book that buys similar stories?
http://www.bestfantasybooks.com/top10_fantasybooksforwomen.html
meant a comment on that post said "women like the same fantasy novels as men (not women)"
Nah, you used it as a noun and she read it as an adjective. Just a missed at the pass kind of thing there.
That's good advice from Melissa, to use that list for potential publishers. Good one!
Yeah, thanks Melissa, I'll check it out. And yup, the idea that your sex designates what you read is hilarious...
There is a lot of assumptions that are made about women because of our sex that are laughable. We were talking about this at lunch and women in the workplace (from a historical standpoint.)
My baby student worker has never had a history class and had no idea what the workplace was for women in the 40s, 50s and 60s. She's always very, "Isn't that amazing?" like she's telling me something new. I keep looking at her and thinking, "This child is getting a degree and she doesn't know anything. What ARE they teaching them here?"
The baby student worker left the lunchroom and the coworker across the hall (who is probably about 4 years older than this student) said, "Has she never had a history class?"
Thank you! That's what I'm saying!
I can't believe with all this time she's spending with you that she's not getting the best history education that money can't buy. LOL!
She doesn't shut up. Even if she engages me for conversation, she'll cut me off and start up with some story about herself and then come back to my story. I find it's not worth my time to educate her. If I wanted to educate people, I'd teach. I prefer to scowl and snark about how uneducated everyone is.
There was a song in "Little Shop of Horrors" ... about living somewhere green...with plastic on the couches, tupperware parties, husband to mow the lawn... A young woman I saw the movie with was totally confused. Didn't get that once upon a time, that was HEA.
Same thing with a nephew who is now working as a member of union for the first time in his life. Knows nothing about how unions work.
A bro-in-law who thought a rock group smashing instruments was totally new...decades after "The Who" did it...
I even remember in Project Runway, when Tim Gunn commented to one designer that his look was very Sgt. Pepper and the designer had no idea what he meant.
The young never look behind them.
And when they do, it's with a very narrow view. How can a student get that far without ever taking a history class? Is she a math major?
A world that extends about as far from the nose as one can reach. Sigh.
The young never look behind them.
Yes and no. There are lots of pop culture stuff that I don't realize are remakes because I was only aware of the "present day" version.
I just think it's DANGEROUS not to know history. Very dangerous.
But even as a young person, I had an awareness about history. Maybe not when I was a teen, but by the time I have my BA, I have a huge awareness of history.
It's my fault. I think if *I* (Amish girl) knew all that at age 23, then you, with all your better education and parenting, should know at least what I knew at 23. If not more. I assume she does know more about the types of learning students learn by than I do--although she didn't know how to break it down for me. *LOL*
She was an education major. That's the part that infuriates me. How can teachers teach anything without having a history background because history infiltrates all other sciences?
It makes me crazy.
Now she's going into psychology.
Oh, great. A psychologist with no understanding of how history in part of everything!
Even with pop culture. I don't absorb it all, don't watch it all, but anyone with an attention span beyond their nose can't help but pick up on things.
And yup, not knowing history bites you in the butt. It gets Miranda over and over. She's lazy. Too many versions of history to keep straight...but she learns better!
My return to college begins on Monday. I declared myself a history major, humanities major, cultural history minor, and art history minor. That's a lot of history...*LOL*
You are going to be busy! But I bet you'll love it all and see how it all entertwines.
Which is what so many of the young miss. The connectedness of everything. Instead, they have specialized their lives to the extent that they do not understand the basic idea of action/reaction...
Drives me crazy.
BEFORE anything else. *sighs* How can I make profound generalizations if I don't spell it right?
That’s a lot of history
That's because history was here for anything else. Whether anyone realizes it or not. *LOL* History makes everything else relevant--even math and science.
Well, it was here for everything else also! I'm could start a debate on the role the teaching of history has on society, but I won't. Suffice to say, I actually think storytelling is the more important art when it comes to the developement of a society.
The story of history it what counts. Let me say it that way.
*ducking
Ah, seeing how we're in a lull, I'm going to see to my lunch...late lunch and head for home. I'll be here for hours to come if anyone wants to debate or throw tomatoes at me.
And thanks to all for a most fascinating discussion. Tune in next Friday for another topic bound to stir controversy. Genre expectations.
Storytelling is the origin of history so I can see that. After all, history is essentially the "winners" writing down their version of what happened.
But just because the winners wrote it down, doesn't mean you can't read it and figure out what really happened and at least come away with an understanding of why the "losers" are still taking it out on everyone.
The why of history and society usually interests me more than the who, what, when, where and how.
Thanks for the interesting discussion today...if I don't pop in for a while, I'll be in classes. Happy writing everyone!
Good luck, Melissa. We'll miss hearing from you but understand. Check in with us now and again! And thanks for all the input...do come back and babble about your classes and what exites you!
She doesn’t shut up. Even if she engages me for conversation, she’ll cut me off and...
I don't shut up? Well gosh Hellion, THANKS for letting me know! 'Course You did Promise me that you'd let me know when I was being clueless :)
I thought she was talking about me!
;)
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