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Blog Archive
Nature vs. Nurture
The idea for this blog came from one of Chance’s comments on Friday. She said, “Me voice instructor used ta say that everyone can sing, it jus’ takes instruction ta sing well!” Since I know I can’t sing and have a hard time believing any amount of instruction would change that, it got me thinking. Can a person learn to do something well without being born with some kind of talent for it?
This is the classic nature vs. nurture argument. If a child is hateful, is it because he’s born that way or because of the way he’s been raised? Simply put, if nurtured differently from birth, would we be different people? I’m pretty sure no definite answers have been decided, but the experts do love to keep the debate going.
So, I’m bringing the debate onto the ship. Nature or nurture?
To form my argument, I’ll use personal experiences. For those who don’t know, I spent eight years as a disc jockey on the radio. I did have a minor amount of instruction in this area during my first stint in college, but once thrown on-air, it was sink or swim. Thankfully, I took to it like a fish to water.
However, I worked with a young woman who had been practicing her on-air skills for years. From talking to her, I knew she wanted to have a career in radio, but after many years, she never seemed to improve. Today, she sounds as unnatural and amateurish as the first day I heard her.
This is where I bring in writing. I’ve always enjoyed writing and if my grades throughout the years are any indication, I do have a talent for it. But, as we all know, writing a paper or even a letter or an email or a blog, is very different from writing a novel. I’m hoping that with years of practice and study, I can cultivate whatever talent I have into what it takes to write a really good novel. But will that happen? The jury is still out.
There is a part in my current WIP where the heroine points out to the hero, a high school baseball coach, that most of his kids will never be good enough to play ball either in college or the professional leagues. To which he responds, “Which one?” Which student do you discourage? As is to be expected, she doesn’t have an answer.
Now the question goes to you. Nature or nurture? Is hard work, instruction, and practice enough? Or are some things just not going to happen without some kind of innate talent? And how do you decide when it’s time to say, “This just isn’t going to happen?” Be it to yourself, or to someone else.
PS: My killer cold returned yesterday so if I’m slow to get here, I’m either buried under work due to losing two days to weather, or knocked out on cold meds. Either way, I’ll get here when I can.
Books by the Crew
47 comments:
Mayhaps I shoulda stated it dif'rently... "It takes practice ta sing better!" Though me instructor felt everyone could sing. If ya could talk, ya could sing.
Given that thought, if ya can walk ya can dance. Hmmm. Well, ya can call it dance! (That be the nice thing 'bout dancin'...all sorts a' dances be called dancin'.)
I been readin' Techniques of the Selling Writer and the author says "Most writers learn by doing." (Ya oughta read this book, Bo'sun. It will help ya feel more confident...though anyone who can come up with that bit a' dialog? Ya got nothin' ta worry 'bout!)
I think Nature makes ya a storyteller. Nurture makes ya a writer.
I also think Dwight V. Swain may a' been a pirate at heart. He say, "No writer in his right mind writes by a set of rules."
I love this man!
Hope ya feel better soon!
I'm with Chance on this.
An ounce of raw talent is worth a ton of slog and teaching. No amount of coaching will turn someone with no ball sense into a soccer star, though it might generate someone who plays tolerably well in a local team.
Likewise with writers. Anyone who reads books and can speak the language can write books and can improve with teaching.To make a top selling author though requires imagination, natural talent with words and just a little magic.
Technique can be taught but raw talent is in the genes. With natural talent you can be a giant, without it you will always be a mouse.
Sad. But its the way of the world!
Feel better, Terri!
I love what your coach says...it was an eye-opener for me.
I can only speak from my own experience. I have not had a writing class since I was in college in the Dark Ages. I have picked up some info on my internet rounds, but mostly I just want to write. If I don't every day, I don't feel right.
I love the fortune cookie saying "Ignorance on fire is better than knowledge on ice." There has to be some burning enthusiasm for the task. The mistakes can be fixed later. So I guess I'm going with rough nature with a bit of nurture to smooth things over.
“Ignorance on fire is better than knowledge on ice.”
I love that, Maggie! That's going on my bulletin board.
Very interesting question, Terri. I believe it is a little bit of both. I definitely believe in personality types - that people are born with certain gifts or tendencies. But… I also believe that you can learn just about anything. It all depends on how much you want it. Is the desire great enough?
I think it’s kind of like Q said... Anyone can write but not everyone is going to be Shakespeare. Anyone can sing but not everyone will be the next Pavarotti. Anyone can play the piano but not everyone will be Mozart. You get the idea. On the other hand I don’t think there is anything wrong with not being Shakespeare, Pavarotti or Mozart and still doing what you love. I don’t think the measure of a work is how good everyone else thinks it is but how accomplishing that work makes an individual feel. I suppose I’ve developed that attitude over the years and it has been driven home with being a mommy. There is nothing quite like watching your little one struggle to complete a task that is probably not the best. But the satisfaction of a job done to the best of their ability is clearly evident in the bright smiles and increased confidence level.
When I was younger I set perfection as my goal. It is amazing how many things I’ve never tried or never experienced because I didn’t believe I could reach my goal. And I always used the excuse – “Oh, that’s just not me. I don’t sing, draw, dance, write, play sports, etc.” You name it I wasn’t born with the ability.
So I suppose that I do believe that people are born with inherent talent for certain things but that doesn’t mean that anyone can’t be anything they want to be. And I believe that accomplishment is where you will find your greatest satisfaction not in being the best.
Read Malcolm Gladwell's book "Outliers" and you will become a practice believer. He submits that it takes 10,000 hours to become an expert at something. The only difference between concert pianists and your "run of the mill" piano players is the amount they practiced.
I heard him interviewed and he was talking about Derek Coleman supposedly one of the most talented basketball players out there. Who knows who he is? Guess what, he did not practice--he didn't have a long term pro career. On the other hand, the names we know: Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Tiger Woods, Michael Phelps--you can bet your bottom dollar that all of those people put their 10,000 hours in. No doubt they probably have a cerebellum/brain that helps them, but Tiger Woods was training his cerebellum from the age of 18 months (with the help of his dad). Same thing with Mozart to tell you the truth--he started at a young age and got better as he got older. Needless to say, I think Glidewell's supposition that practice helps a lot gives me hope that hard work does count for something. Now you can imagine how much time people like Phelps and Woods devoted to their sport as well.
Very thought provoking, Terr.
Being talented is no guarantee of making anything of it. There are plenty of TALENTED people who don't even finish writing their great American novel. And there are many more untalented people (in my opinion) who get published anyway, just because they did finish their books and they were "good enough." It is more than talent vs practice--it's about perseverence, who you know, networking, HUMILITY, and luck. But mostly, more than talent or practice, I think it's the Chinese proverb, "Fall down seven, get up eight." If THIS is truly what you want, then you'll make it happen.
You referenced the woman who'd gone to classes, it was her dream--and she still sounded like an amateur, but the fact was, she WAS living her dream. She WAS on the radio, DOING the very thing she wanted to do. She might not have been the equivalent of a NYT's best seller, but 99% of writers aren't those anyway, but they're still writing and still happy about what ponds they're swimming in.
If something was only worth doing IF you could become Mozart, then why would anyone bother? Mozart is Mozart and can't never be replaced or duplicated. Trying to be Mozart means you miss out on Beethoven...or Chopin. Or Maroon 5 and George Strait.
Stop comparing yourself. It's the gremlin monkeys of the Inner Critic, and it's only there to try to make you quit. Why let the bastards win?
I think that it's a little of both. (How's that for diplomacy?) I think that voice makes us the writer we are and that's a nature thing. Maybe it's from how we're raised, our experiences in life, I don't know. But something makes us talk/sound the way we sound. And I don't know if there's much we can do about that.
But on the other hand, I think that we can hone our skills around that. And I think ultimately practice practice practice/write write write is the best way to do that.
So, both?
I think for some things that it has to be nature - no way in hell will my voice ever sound better than a frog's no matter how much practice I put in!
I do think you can nurture some things and become better at them, but you can teach yourself how to say dance a perfect technical waltz - but if there is no heart behind it, then it will fall flat.
I think the same is true with writing. You can be grammatically correct, follow all the character and plotting techniques, etc and have what should be a perfect book - but if you didn't put your heart into the pages, will it really be a book that readers connect with?
Some of my favorite books had flaws - but the passion of the storytelling more than made up for it.
Good morning all! I'm at work but it's crazy busy and I have at least three things that must be done NOW. *sigh* I'll be back to respond to the comments as soon as I can.
But I do love how Hellie interprets this as comparing yourself and Marn refuses to pick a side of the fence. LOL!
This is good. Keep going!
I hope you feel better soon, Ter. :)
While I do think that writing takes practice (everything takes practice- though practice doesn't always make perfect.) I do think that writing on an enjoyable level needs raw talent to make it work.
Don't get me wrong. You can still be a good writer even if you suck at the beginning. Everyone sucks when they first start out. But unless you have an ounce of talent, no amount of practice will help you grow into a story teller. Some people are just natural born story tellers. And those are the type of people who take their raw talent and practice with the intention of growing into authors. And there are some people with raw talent who never take the opportunity to grow and let their talent go to waste. On the flip side of that, there are people with the ability to write regardless of raw talent who with a little spit shine and practice could go a long way.
It's about the amount of determination you put into something. If you are determined enough, no amount of talent is going to hold you back. Confidence and determination are the two key things in life to help you succeed. It just helps if you have a little raw talent to help you along.
This is almost like the question of who came first- the chick or the egg. It's almost impossible to answer.
I suppose if I would've just said I pick nurture I would've saved myself a whole page of explanation. LOL
Hope you feel better Ter! I'm going to go with both too. Jenny Cruise had an awesome blog post over the weekend on how she's revising a scene. In the comments section, someone said they didn't do all that work for each scene, and her response was that she wasn't a natural story teller, so for her it was necessary. For someone who's a natural story teller, they can get away with less work.
I think talent is great, but it's only part of the equation. It still takes hard work, even with someone with talent. The person who can mix raw talent with hard work will probably get there sooner, but I think anyone willing to work hard will eventually get there.
If ya could talk, ya could sing.
One of my first writing craft books was "If You Can Talk, You Can Write" (Joel Saltzman, 1993). And in that book I found the quote I keep going back to, no matter what. Blah, blah, blah...GOLD!
He goes on to say, the more you "talk" on paper, the better your chances of stumbling onto something good. You're like a prospector panning for gold.
Meanwhile, you must not grow anxious or lose your patience, yelling, "Sand, sand! I can't stand any more of this lousy sand!" Instead, learn to expect the sand. Lots of it. That's just how it goes. Sand, sand, something worth keeping.
That's maybe the first time I considered that even someone with a natural talent might not say it right the first time.
But I do think it's more nature than nurture. I think there are some writers who are going to be panning for gold forever (and who knows, quite happy about it) because there really is no gold. Or they get lucky and become famous from striking gold with a hot trend. The rest of us, with maybe even a natural talent because the grades are good and it seems like we SHOULD be good writers might have to work at it longer and harder to find gold. Something is there - something good - in how the words are rearranged. Maybe nature has to be nurtured. :)
Melissa, I adore that analogy. Awesome!
correction - Jenny Crusie's response was that she wasn't a natural story teller, which surprised me. She said she has to work it harder than the natural story teller does.
Thank God Jenny Cruisie said she wasn't a natural storyteller, because I was about to quit writing altogether. I am NOT a natural storyteller...I can't even improve with practice. But I can write and I have improved the longer I write. And I can prune my work and improve pacing, et al, and I can see what makes up good writing in books a lot of the time. I don't think it's ALL magic hocus-pocus that can't possibly be duplicated.
I'm loving the "blah, blah, blah...GOLD!" Everyone is making such great points. So I'm adding a new question to the mix.
When you see someone struggling, really struggling and frustrated and hurt because they think what they are doing is awesome, when it isn't, what do you do? Do you put them out of their misery? Is there a timeframe? Or do you let them struggle endlessly?
And if you let them struggle, what do you say years down the road when they ask, "Why didn't someone tell me?!"
And if you let them struggle, what do you say years down the road when they ask, “Why didn’t someone tell me?!”
You say, "You weren't ready to hear it." It's that Buddha thing about the student and the teacher...the teacher can only teach when the student is ready.
If this person isn't ready to hear she will never, ever, ever cut it as a published author--which is a glaring percentage of writers as we all know--then your well-intended: "You stink and should trying finding a hobby you're better suited for" isn't going to go over well. At all. Ever. Regardless if she blames you later for not telling her. Fact is, you probably told her in a 100 different ways. By all the ways you pointed out her story was lacking a plot...or conflict...or a goal. By the fact you eventually stopped reading her stuff at all, due to lack of time. By the fact whenever she brought up she got rejected yet again, you changed the subject. You can't take the blame for the fact she was deluded. And you can't keep her from being deluded...because having delusions is one of the coping mechanisms of any writer. We're all deluded enough to think, somehow, someday, this will pay off somehow...if we just keep working at it. And for a lot of writers this is true. It might just be a matter of changing our goals--instead of setting our sights on only big name publishers, maybe look for a small publisher or self-publish. If you only want to see your book in print and don't mind paying it, then do it if it makes you happy. Wild Animus got published, why not you?
I too recommend Malcolm Gladwell’s book “Outliers”. It is a fasinaing read. He does talk about the importance of practice. But he also talks about environment and family history opportunity. Lets face it, most sucessful people have the ability to see opportunities, where someone else would only see a dead end.
The story that comes to my mind is that of a young woman. All of her life she had dreamed of being a dancer. But she never had the oppertunity to get any formal training. She spent her childhood in orphanages, reform school and living on the streets. Despite all of that she never lost her hope ... her desire ... to dance on the stage proffessionally.
Despite all the odds going against her, this seventeen year old was able to win an opportunity to compete in an "Amateur Night" contest" She had intended to go on stage and dance, but she was intimidated by the dance duo that proceeded her. Can you imagine what that teenager felt? Standing in the wings watching someone who was good at what she Wanted to be good at? The disappointment she felt? She wanted to be a dancer but she realized that she would never be as good as the compitition. Instead of letting fate defeat her She decided to make the most of the Opportunity that had come her way,
So instead of dancing ... she opted to sing instead.
From Wikipedia:
She is widely considered one of the supreme interpreters of the Great American Songbook. Over a recording career that lasted 59 years, she was the winner of 13 Grammy Awards, and was awarded the National Medal of Art by Ronald Reagan and the Presidential Medal of Freedom by George H. W. Bush.
She was Ella Fiztgerald.
BTW
I am a great believer in Serendipity.
If something was only worth doing IF you could become Mozart, then why would anyone bother? Mozart is Mozart and can’t never be replaced or duplicated. Trying to be Mozart means you miss out on Beethoven…or Chopin. Or Maroon 5 and George Strait.
Brilliant Hellie. Especially as I much prefer George Strait to Mozart myself :)
And I Hope that you feel better too Terri!
My favorite Ghandi quote is "Anything worth doing well is worth doing poorly in the beginning."
Me, too, Hal, me too.
Thanks for the well wishes all. I'm feeling a might bit better, well enough to be at work. Though I cannot get far from my tissue box. I'll have to sanitize my entire office when this is over.
Re: Hellie's comment - I think that depends on the person. Several years ago, there was something very important I needed to know, and no one told me. It's not exactly the same thing, but I know there are women who wouldn't want to know. I WANTED to know. Mostly because I was made a fool of. To me, being made to feel like a fool is one of the worst things ever. I'd rather someone tell me the truth than let me look like a fool.
But that's just me. See, this is the hard part. Everyone is different. And who wants to be the bad guy?!
Julie - Making opportunities sometimes where there isn't one is so important. I'm a firm believer in making your own luck, so to speak. Though I don't call it that. You don't like something? Change it. Don't rant that the world won't cut you a break or bad luck is holding you back. Make your own way, and then if you fail, you know it wasn't for lack of trying and you've at least earned the right to whine. But just a little, that gets old quick. :)
Loving the Ghandi quote!
No one wants to be made a fool. But even if someone came to you and told you, would you have believed them? I think we all believe what we want to believe. That's just humans cope.
PLUS I think it's a lot of nerve of these people to have suddenly gone around and said, "Yeah, I *knew* it all along." Did they really? Or they just saying it to claim they were in the know?
Plus considering the circumstances you were referring to, which is a lot more humilating than simply not getting published, that's the sort of situation where sure there were probably a lot of witnesses but no one wanted to be involved. The car accident that no one could say who was at fault until the cop told them who was at fault--and suddenly everyone's claiming credit for seeing it. Whatever.
That should be "and family history AND opportunity".
Jeez
So much for trying to muti task ... let a lone type. :(
I think there are limits on both nature and nurture. We've all seen athletes, actors, singers, writers, etc. with tons of talent who failed because they lacked committment and discipline. On the other hand, there are also journeymen/journeywomen in all creative fields who achieve a level of competence but lack the ability to attain excellence.
I also believe, to borrow a line from Thomas Gray's "Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard," "Some mute inglorious Milton here may rest" who was denied opportunity to develop great talent. We will never know, for example, how much the world lost through centuries of societies denying education and opportunity to some based on gender, race, and/or class.
Decades of teaching writing have persuaded me that anyone with average intelligence and the will to work at it can be taught to write a letter, an essay, a report, etc. with a high degree of skill and polish. I don't believe anyone can teach self or another to write creativly. At best a teacher can foster ability, offer advice, give encoragement, and perhaps provide opportunities. A teacher fans the flames of creativity and imagination, but the spark has to be there first.
Was it on the ship that the conversation was about heaven one day? I said then that I look forward to hearing one day the words, "Join the choir. You can sing in tune now." I could practice eight hours a day, 365 days a year, and I would never hear those words spoken truthfully in my temporal existence. I'm much better off--and so are those whose lives mine touches--accepting that I cannot sing and focusing my time and efforts on the gifts I have. So I'll keep writing and limit my singing to the shower and to solo auto trips.
Janga, I'm going to be given the same notice in Heaven one day...with the additional thing, "You can also dance in rhythm now too...enjoy!"
Julie, I love the Ella Fitzgerald story! But she had the voice. It was a matter of using what she had been given.
You ladies (and gent) are doing so well on your own. Thanks for keeping this going.
The fire! That's very important as well. As much as I enjoyed working in radio, the fire went out for me. I thought I'd miss it, but I really don't.
Hellie - They knew. ;/
I think I saw Mr. Gladwell on Charlie Rose recently. I do need to look into getting that book. It's certainly true that the greats at anything are usually the ones who have dedicated their life to the pursuit. Very good point!
Great, I missed something in the HTML...
Hey Janga, Ella's voice was not considered that exceptional when she first started to sing.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss?url=search-alias%3Ddigital-music&field-keywords=ella+fitzgerald+atisket+a+tasket&x=20&y=24
Listen to "A-Tisket A-Tasket", the origenal verson with Chick Webb & His Orchestra. Its "not bab", but her voice is Nothing compaired to her later songs. What got Fiztgerald the gig with Webb was that she Wrote that song.
It was her ability as a Writer that gave her the opportunity to develope into a world class singer. Interesting, no?
A few more interesting facts:
Chick Webb ( IMO one of the all time great drummers )felt that Ms. Fitzgerald was quote "To ugly to be a lead singer". And through out much of her career Ella was criticised for "sounding to white". She didn't fit into a nice, neat Catagory.
Proof that there is always Hope for you writers who don't quite fit in a genre!
Its “not bab”? Make that Its not BAD ... unlike my infernal, internal editing!
This is all very erudite for pirates! *grin*
Hellie said: I think we all believe what we want to believe. That’s just humans cope.
You speak for yourself sunshine! :lol:
Janga said: I think there are limits on both nature and nurture. We’ve all seen athletes, actors, singers, writers, etc. with tons of talent who failed because they lacked committment and discipline. On the other hand, there are also journeymen/journeywomen in all creative fields who achieve a level of competence but lack the ability to attain excellence
Thats my view exactly, and expressed with style. 8)
Chance said: And I like how Q agreed with me, but not really! :wink:
Chance, I think that my agreeing with you is like the kiss of death around here! :wink:
Julie said: Hey Janga, Ella’s voice was not considered that exceptional when she first started to sing.
Julie, isn't it true that the voice doesn't have to be that great to sing Jazz. I remember Ella for her personality, gritty voice and interpretation. Like when she 'takes the A train'. Its not like opera where music stretches a voice to its absolute limits, and anything short of perfection will sound awful.
It's ok Julie - I have a typo in almost every post!
No editors on board to smack your hand!
Kiss a' death? Am I that controversial? No one told me! ;)
I 'member Mahalia Jackson...broke every rule there be wit' singin'. Breathed in the wrong places, broke phrase in odd ways. Who cared? Her voice and her spirit shone through it all.
I think that be what nature be all 'bout. And I think that be what I was tryin' ta get across, partly, in Friday's blog. If ya got the voice, writin' or singin', ya can carry past the mistakes, be it writin' or singin'.
I don't know if that be true wit' other things. Sports? Eh. Doubt it would work there. Paintin? Yup. Sculptin'? Yup. Not even sure it would work wit' instrumental works... But it may!
BTW, Pirates... Hal be interviewed by QueryTracker taday...
Thanks Chance *g*
Ooohhh Chance! Mahalia Jackson ... Didn't it Rain!
Thank you, everyone, for keeping this going without me. I've taken more medicine, but it's not working yet. This is so not a good sign.
Sorry Ter! Hope it kicks in soon!
Sabrina said "It’s ok Julie - I have a typo in almost every post! No editors on board to smack your hand!"
I'd honestly feel sorry for anyone who would have to Edit me! And I suspect that they wouldn't be slapping me on the hand ... They'd be smacking Themselves on the forehead as they moaned...
"OMG! Whats with all of those dot-Dot-DOTS!"
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