A Winner! And... Ensemble Cast or Quiet Duet?
First of all, I wanted to post the winner for the autographed book from last week’s Jessica Andersen visit.
Renee Lynn Scott!
Email me with your snail mail addy and I’ll have Jess send you your autographed book!
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When I started my WIP, I intended for it to be the first of five books about a group of six fighters. But, I’m having some second thoughts.
Not because I don’t find them interesting. I do. But my hero and heroine’s story, the interactions between them, take up so much of the book that I’ve had a hard time zeroing in on any of the other characters. At least not all five of the other characters.
So, I’ve been kicking around the idea of scaling it back to just three other fighters, for a total of four. It serves my purpose in a few ways, might allow me to really dig deeper in the leftovers. Who knows? I’m still mushing it around in my head.
Made me start thinking about stories with large ensemble casts, though, to see how they manage it and to see what I was doing differently. JR Ward and Sherrilyn Kenyon both have ongoing series with enough characters that they could play basketball and still have alternates. Yet, their characters all remain unique. Julia Quinn did it with her Bridgertons, though she definitely kept the number of Bridgertons in any given book to a minimum, rarely wrangling the entire crew. In big series, I wonder if it’s hard to get them all together and all characterized without relying on past stories to do your work for you.
JR Ward and Jessica Andersen use a bunch of different POVs in their books. Some people complain that this slows down the story between the H/H. I disagree. I like having a bunch of people’s heads. Makes me feel like I’ve got a wider view of the story.
But there are authors that are strictly one hero’s and one heroine’s POV in their book, with few secondaries. It seems this happens a lot in historicals. The casts are smaller, more focused on the relationship between him and her.
I wonder what you guys think. Do you like big ensemble casts of characters or do you prefer the smaller groups? Do you mind having the secondary characters’ POVs or do you think it distracts from the main story between the H/H? Do your preferences change for urban fantasy or erotica/erotic romance (or any other genre)? Who does a big cast well? Who does one on one well? Thoughts?
Books by the Crew
36 comments:
I've never read a book with a whole lot of POVs... one, two, perhaps three or four... Well, that don't sound like a lot ta me, but it might ta others.
When it comes down ta it, I love multiple POVs in plays...like "Into the Woods" ... some movies... I don't know, gots ta think 'bout it. See if'n I can figure out any other works I read that touch on the tendency.
I have read the multiple book thing, wit' the cast a characters changin' while the settin' remains the same. It all works when done well!
Remembering that I read novels for relaxation, I don't like my brain being over taxed, at least early on.
A lot of characters (more than three) in the early pages will tax my memory. A complicated plot, unless it unfolds slowly, will tax my analytical powers and probably send me to sleep before my gears are properly engaged.
Secondary and tertiary characters should be introduced gently and can then make a claim for their own separate story.
So a large cast is OK for me as long as the focus remains with a small number. For example, in the Arthurian tales a large number of knights with Merlin and Guinevere are involved, but novels tend to focus on just a few characters. For example Mary Stuart's series gives one book 'The Hollow Hills' to Merlin.
So as a simple minded fellow, I say keep things simple at first. Follow God's example where the universe was initiated as a simple infinitely dense ball of plasma and evolved over eons to the complexity we see today.
Likewise Write as a spider spins a web and allow the complexity to unfold gradually.
Finally Marnee, just follow your instincts. If that means ignoring my advice, so be it. But remember that I have God on my side! 8)
I don't think you have to have a small cast of character, I just think that if you are going to do a scene in someone other than the h/h or villain in something like a paranormal, they had better have a damn good reason for having their POV shown. It would have to be something that really pushed the story forward for the two main protagonists and the goals the group is trying to seek.
My preferences are the same across the board for whatever subgenre. But, for first person, I prefer only one characters POV.
In Asbury's book (because there is a secondary romance threaded throughout) there are a total of four POVs. And funny thing is the villain doesn't have a POV! Hidden Beauty had two, but mostly one from the heroine's POV. Immortal Beloved I had two (secondary romance is told in the POV of the main protagonists).
It all depends a lot on what it does for the story.
Morning girls and gent!
Chance - Three to four POVs is a lot (at least it feels like a lot in my current WIP! LOL!) How many POVs are you working with now?
And you're right; the whole large cast works well when done well. :)
Q - Well, geez Q.... When you give me a blueprint like, say, I don't know... GOD!... I guess how can I go wrong? LOL! Sounds easy enough... LMAO!!
But I see what you're saying. Evolution as a writing process. I think that makes a lot of sense. And I agree. When too many characters are introduced at once, I have a hard time keeping character traits separate. Maybe I should take my own experience to mind here.
Tiff - I think making sure the POVs are a catalyst is a good point. I think sometimes in Ward's books (though I LOVE love love her stories) there are scenes from other POVs that aren't really necessary to the main plot. Anyone else feel like that?
I've heard in some critting circles that there's a trend right now to write 1st person for the heroine and 3rd for the hero in the same book. Anyone dig that?
I guess as you all are saying, it depends what it does for the story.... :)
PS, there's a villain in Asbury's book? Yummy.... :)
I really try to stick to just the h/h POV, but have been known to slip. Editors seem to want a limited amount of face time for secondary characters---it's all about the h/h. But sometimes it's more fun to drag in the hero's best friend---you just have to know when.
I think trilogies and quartets are very popular. I know I'd read yours!
I prefer to read my paranormals with lots of POVs. But with that being said, I also love just first person. And once in first person, you usually don't get anyone else's POV.
I could dig a first person heroine and third person hero in a book. It would be a really interesting read to see how the story unfolds.
Like Q said, and I have to agree, you have to follow your instincts, babe and see where the wind takes you.
Mags - Awh, thanks! I'll take you up on that.... LOL!!
And I think you're right, knowing when to introduce is as important as choosing the character to introduce. :)
I like the hero's best friend usually too. Something about that perspective is so much fun.
I enjoy a large cast, but I usually only want the h/h POV.
Some of my favorite books are series with large casts - the Malorys come to mind again! LOL I cannot stress my love of those books enough. She deals with two very large families and somehow manages to include so many of them in each book but remain mostly in the h/h POV.
I also thought of the Highlander Series by Karen Marie Moning. It's a long series that has character connections between all the books.
Sin - I think I like a lot of POVs as a general too. I do think if a writer isn't careful it can distract from the overall story though.
And I think the whole 1st heroine and 3rd hero might be kinda neat. Someone should try that (not me as my 1st person is atrocious) but one of you other folks who do both well. Any of you wenches up for the task, just to sooth my curiosity? LOL!
I think that I'm going to look at rearranging, just to explore the idea a little further. I'll keep you posted. :)
Sabrina - I remember reading some of the Malory books when I was younger, but I haven't in a while. And I haven't picked up Moning before, though it sounds like fun. :)
I like both, but both can be badly handled so don't think one over the other is the better choice.
I think Eloisa does a great job with big ensemble POVs, without making it seem like headhopping, without seeming like it takes away from another character. (I have people who disagree about it not taking away from other characters, but *I* like it.)
And I think Sherrilyn Kenyon does a great job about keeping it to TWO characters a book with brief interactions with other characters that'll show up later. You don't feel like these people are out of nowhere (usually)--but that you just haven't had a chance to meet them until their book comes up. *LOL* And it's always nice that a character who played a part in book 10, gets her own book in book 20. You feel like you know them--even if you only met them once.
Write what you like to read, Marn. You're not going to please everyone, but you are going to please many and get quite a following. Do what you're comfortable with, but don't be afraid to push yourself--since they always say the best writing comes from what scares you to do. *grins*
I do have to say, I don't always care for series that carry over for several books that are only about one character and her love triangles. (Anita Blake is basically my exception to this rule.)
I prefer series books that have two "main" characters who get their HEA at the end of the book, but can have ensemble casts who play larger roles than the average secondary character.
Hellie - I like how Sherrilyn Kenyon does it too, with each book being a separate couple that gets their HEA at the end. I haven't read any of the series where there's just one character who goes through. (a la Stephanie Plum or Anita Blake.) Well, I did read Colleen Gleason's Gardella books. And while I liked them, I think she could've done the story in three. Because after two I wanted her to get with Max.
I think you're right about the what I'm comfortable with. I think I'm going to mess around with it. Maybe cut down on the # of characters and maybe introduce another POV back in. hmmmm.... So many options. :)
This isn't a paranormal example, but Suzanne Brockmann, esp in her Trouble Shooters series, does a HUGE ensemble cast. Most characters pop in up two or three books before they get a book all to themselves. I read an interview with her where she said she has to plot like three years in advance to keep it all straight! Can you imagine? Om the one hand, I really liked all the ways the different characters interacted, but on the other hand, it did feel a bit like a chaotic family reunion. The characters who had already had their own book and happy ending really blurred.
To be perfectly Frank, I'd have ta get out a hilighter and destroy a book ta really see POV switches. If they're done seamlessly, I just don't register them!
When I write, I do tend ta segue into other POV. But I'd have ta sit and count them to actually say!
I just don't pay attention! And yes, it will bite me on the butt eventually. But then I gets the adventure a' fixin' it all...
I agree with that 2nd chance - If I'm really engrossed I wouldn't be able to tell you whose POV it was written in!
I've read both the ensemble and the focused stand alone and I've liked both. Like anything else, it's all a matter of balance. I have quite a few secondary characters in my WIP, but I'm writing contemporary which makes that necessary, and so far plan to only have the H/H POVs.
I think the most POVs I've read was four and that was in a Christie Craig book. I loved it but did notice that the further along the story progressed, the less and less we got from the secondary couple.
My guess is you could bring a secondary character in for only one or two scenes and have it be enough to set up for the next book. All you have to do is create some tiny spark of curiosity about that character in the reader. Lora Leigh did this pretty well in her Navy Seals series. A subtle hint that a character had a tough past he doesn't talk about will hook a reader instantly. They'll pester that author to death to find out about that guy. LOL!
Nah, 2nd & Sabrina, lots of readers don't mind the POV switches. And some writers really do handle it seamlessly and you just don't care--you read because it's just good.
And then there are some writers who do seem to keep to one POV throughout a scene or chapter. Or best of all, the first person writers where we don't have to worry about it switching. *LOL* These people were probably English majors at one point.
I prefer non-POV switches because I think it forces deeper POV and characterization. More switches, less deep POV, shallower characterization. But we all know I'm a purist snob. *shrugs*
I'm with Hellion on Eloisa James's ensemble romances. I think she does them brilliantly. One of the things I found interesting about the Desperate Duchesses series is that the first book was wholly ensemble--and took a lot of criticism for it. But the world of the book grew smaller as the series continued. In This Duchess of Mine the world was particularly intimate.
I read a lot of community books--Robyn Carr, Susan Wiggs, Debbie Macomber, etc. They all have large casts of characters. I take comfort in their numbers since I have A LOT of characters in TLWH.
Hal - A chaotic family reunion. *shivers* this is my worst nightmare with having too many characters. My DH's father has a total of 12 brothers and sisters. Family reunions are big. I took me a solid year just to keep everyone straight. LOL!
And I can't imagine plotting that far in advance. With how things change in my plots? Oye. I'd totally wreck it up.
Chance and Sabrina - I think maybe I just notice the POV switches more now that I write so much. And I really mess with who's POV things should be in to best accentuate the emotional turmoil. Ahhh... emotional turmoil....
Ter - I've heard that Lora Leigh's Navy Seals are really good? You recommend? And you're right about the subtle hint about the horrible past. I'm not a pesterer but I would say I'm always excited when an author gives said emotionally tortured hero a book. :)
Hells - I'm a little anal about just one POV through a scene. I really notice headhopping these days. And I agree with this wholeheartedly: "I prefer non-POV switches because I think it forces deeper POV and characterization. More switches, less deep POV, shallower characterization. But we all know I’m a purist snob. *shrugs*"
especially the part where I'm also a purist snob. LOL!
Janga - I've come to terms with the fact a contemporary is usually going to require more characters. You can write an English house party in the 1800s and limit the number of characters interacting.
But for contemporaries, our characters usually have jobs and unless they live in the desert or Montana or something, they are going to encounter people constantly. LOTS of people. LOL!
Janga - I haven't read Debbie Macomber in a while, but I love how wholesome her stuff is. The small town feel of it hits close to my heart.
I think those types, where the stories are set in small towns, where everyone's in everyone else's business 24/7, require large ensemble casts. It'd be weird to write that type of contemp without including the extended family of the entire town. :)
Ter - I agree. With how connected we all are in modern times, to write an isolated hero/heroine would require certain specific setting requirements. Can be done (snowbound, vacations, getaways) but in our day to day lives we talk to lots of folks.
You say you prefer one POV through an entire scene? So you never switch, even if the scene is long? I do stick to one for most scenes, but I think a switch somewhere around the middle if the scene is longer works. Though I'd never do more than that one switch inside a scene in my own stuff.
I hear all the time how Nora head hops, but I never notice it when I'm reading her books.
I'm glad I'm not the ONLY purist snob. *LOL*
I think at a country party you can have a LOT of people you're interfacing with. Families were bigger in the 1800s. You've got servants--and the multitude of the UNSEEN. You've got the neighbors who might be visiting; the poor cousins the rich hero might have to keep around. You can stock your house party with a LOT of people and stock it believably.
Frankly I can't imagine a London ton party where 200 or more people show up at a time. That just gives me claustrophobia just thinking about it.
In fact, as a member of contemporary society, I don't interact as much with people as probably an 1810 miss would. You had the morning calls to people. You had to discuss the menus with the housekeeper. You were always talking to someone.
If I talk to someone, I do it by phone or email. And even then I keep the phone contact to a minimum. But we all know I'm a hermit.
Some people, not naming names *coughs*TERRI*coughs* are talkers and like people. And so can naturally find lots of people to interface with everyday, without using her email or phone only.
I bet you there were talkers in 1810 London--and I bet you they found all sorts of people to ensemble with.
Ter - I do stick with one POV through a scene. Neurotically. I've never mixed it up. I tend to do two scenes per chapter, chapters about 2500-3000 words long.
And I haven't read Nora in a while, so I don't know if she does. I used to read her stuff all the time. My mom liked her, so she passed them on.
Hells - My wedding had 200 people (maybe a little more) and I can't imagine hosting parties like that on a regular basis. Just talking to everyone made my head spin. :)
And of course you aren't the only purist snob. I was an English major too, you know.... LOL!!
I didn't say you couldn't have a large house party, I meant it's easier and more believable to have less characters in that setting.
And you can't tell me you don't walk past, trip over, or curse out at least a dozen people a day. You go to the store, you go to the gym. You interact all the time.
Then my scenes average smaller word counts than yours. Mine stay around 1500 or so and if it goes beyond that, I switch. But I only switch if, as you say, the scene is better served from the other POV.
Why is it everytime I comment, the thread dies for several hours? I'm getting a complex here.
That whole idea of a chaotic family reunion or large wedding is why my husband and I ran off to Hawaii and got married - just the two of us, a minister and a photographer. It was heaven - not a fan of my family's large gatherings, but Ido liek the community in books feel - Macomber does an excellent job. Love those books.
And you can’t tell me you don’t walk past, trip over, or curse out at least a dozen people a day. You go to the store, you go to the gym. You interact all the time.
If you count driving as part of interaction, sure. Otherwise, not so much. 7 co-workers, maybe 2 phone co-workers (I don't interact with everyone every day--that's what I like about my job, not having to consult with people most of the time), a Director, a Chair, Pam & Holly on gym days, and Sherry if she's around. Jason I usually see--but if the look on my face is dark--he does not speak to me unless spoken to. (He's SO married.)
Anyone else that's in the store, in the gym, are just background noise. They are not people I interact with, period. They're wallpaper--that's not hte same.
I've interacted with five people today. 8 if you include the two phone calls from students and the one who stopped by--and I don't.
If you're out in the Wild West, you wouldn't have to see anyone for months. But in London, you'd interact with many every day. Except for that girl out of Jane Austen--her friend who married Mr. Collins--she doesn't interact with many every day, including Mr. Collins, but she prefers it that way. I would too if married to that man.
Ha! You named a dozen people (if I don't count the smart married dude) so there. You may not deal with them *every* day but a book is longer than a day so it's likely they would all come in at some point or another.
I rest my case.
When did the west come into this? And I don't blame Charlotte either.
My point is that London and the people who frequent London make up a lot more people than I do. I don't think it's out of place to have a score of people running around a house party. Have you seen their dining tables? Please.
We're talking about an era of time when the whole entertainment was to see and be seen--finding a dozen people to interact with on a daily basis--at a country estate or not wouldn't be hard in a early 19th century novel. (I was conceding finding a dozen people to visit with on a daily basis in the west would be difficult.)
I've never once argued against the number of people in a London set Historical. I simply stated that there are options in Historical settings where smaller casts are believable.
And you can’t tell me you don’t walk past, trip over, or curse out at least a dozen people a day. You go to the store, you go to the gym. You interact all the time.
Goodness,I hope you don't intend to include all the mundane interactions with every acquaintance in these novels, either contemp or historical!
That sound awfully boring.It may have been OK in Victorian times when readers had masses of spare time. I only want to read about the unusual or 'special' moments and there aren't so many of those.
At a Regency ball there are of course many characters, some of whom could be named in the book, but to burden the reader with details of all acquaintances would be sadistic in the extreme!
To keep my interest it is vital to focus on a small number of characters, treating the remainder as background noise, necessary only for creating atmosphere.
As a reader I want to taste the cream and the scotch without having to bother with the bread and the water. *grin*
Fascinating discussions today! :D
I like a big cast of characters, but I think the pov needs to be tamed. But then I haven't read many books that use more than 3 or 4 povs. In my Highlander, I had 5 povs (yikes) I've since decided that I need to tame it down a little
Q says: "to keep my interest it is vital to focus on a small number of characters, treating the remainder as background noise, necessary only for creating atmosphere."
Well said, sir! :)
Renee! Yikes, 5 POVs? You are ambitious! :)
Don't forget to email me your addy, I'll have Jess send you her book!
Sorry I missed most a' this taday. Went ta see Julie*Julia. Loverly movie. Fav scene? Eric not waitin' fer Julie to cut a chocolate cake and jus' diggin' inta it wit' a fork. If ya see this movie, be prepared ta leave hungry...
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