Tuesday, August 4, 2009
Tangled Triangles
Music of the week: "Familiar Taste of Poison" Halestorm
"One's first love is always perfect until one meets one's second love." Elizabeth Aston
As writers, we tend to foster emotional drama in our fictional lives. What fosters better drama than a love triangle? And not a soft triangle like conflict between two of the same sex, but an honest to goodness fight of raw emotion. The conflict that sucks all reason from the afflicted person's mind, the kind of emotion that leaves you breathless when you see someone, when your fingers touch, when your eyes meet. Passion is wonderful, but the ultimate goal for our characters is for them to experience the ever lasting feeling of love. Even if the love doesn't last, at least it leaves an impression inside of their heart for future reference. Love isn't exactly the easiest emotion to deal with and it's never pretty. The long hard road to realizing love is sometimes the dirtiest messiest fight you have to go through in life. But that doesn't mean the end result isn't worth it. It just makes you appreciate it more.
But what happens when your heart doesn't realize one love is enough? It seems so cruel to put ones character through their paces and make them agonize over love. It would be so easy to give your character the easy way out, give them the benefit of your past experience and they have to avoid all that unpleasantness of heartbreak. But what does your reader learn from reading your book? Nothing. What does your reader feel from reading that? Nothing. How will you draw your reader in if you give the character the easy way out? You won't. I'm not saying that a love triangle is what draws a reader in (hopefully it's the story and the emotion behind the characters) but what keeps me reading a series? Growing relationships. Character growth. A hot demon named Al (I'm just sayin') or a badass by the name of Ranger. Falling in love with a character as you read through the hundreds of pages and the writing makes you feel like you're right there. Love is a part of life- for the good, the bad, and the ugly.
The first time I can really remember reading a true love triangle was Ranger, Stephanie and Morelli (Janet Evanovich). Of course, in my mind there is no triangle. Ranger could have her hands down if he would just step up to the plate. Any man who can tells you he was going to spend the entire night ruining you for all other men, I say grab a hold of him and take him straight into the bedroom (or to the nearest wall, kitchen counter, sofa, table- seriously, if he's willing take it wherever) and don't let him leave.
Not to mention he walked into her apartment knowing he was going to be shot and was willing to die for her... come on. Hands down, the man is solid.
Of course, when Ranger finds Stephanie in the cabinet and there are no words exchanged between them for just seconds, but to them it felt like forever, I just knew. I knew I had to write something and it had to be about them. I felt passionate enough about that relationship to do something I'd never done before and write what needed to happen. In my mind, the triangle is solved. In the eyes of millions, it's still hanging in the balance waiting for its solution.
Okay, I completely got off topic. I think what struck so deeply within me about these characters was the underlying emotion simmering underneath the surface. Yeah, there is serious tension going on between all three of them, but it's the things that aren't spoken, the looks that are exchanged, and all the emotion that's never expressed. I'm drawn to the emotional drama of the triangle like a moth to the flame. I need that emotional draw to feel a story and keep reading. I need to know the characters could be real people, and the story line could be real. Fiction is only fictional in your mind. We might not be able to blow up dozens of cars and only end up with singed hair; but love and life are true regardless where we read or see it.
I planned on writing triangled relationships in my manuscripts. It's how I got my start and if it ain't broke, don't fix it. In the beginning of Sadie's story, Sadie was going to have a triangle going on with her two heroes. Then when I broke the characters down, I was pretty sure Kiki's story arc was going to involve a triangle. Then I realized that a triangle needs emotion to survive and since we all know Kiki is seriously lacking in the emotion department, the relationship triangle is going to be a soft triangle. More conflict than outright passionate love and desire- torn between two different lives and two different loves. It doesn't mean she couldn't love more than one person. Happens all the time, and hell if anyone is going to surprise me, it's going to be her. (Though, now that I say that, Sadie will probably surprise me and fall for three different guys and maybe a girl; but whatever. She deserves to live a little.) I think after you live a life surviving on the barest amounts of emotion, it's hard to find your way back to emotional zero and move forward. At this moment in time, a relationship triangle would be REALLY out of character for Kiki.
Living inside of a love triangle takes a bit of living in constant denial. Not wanting to face the reality of loving two people, having to eventually break someone's heart and walking away. Walking away from someone is the hardest thing you have to do when you still love someone. Wanting something better for them, wanting more for them when you know you can't give it to them. Dealing with a triangle is anything but easy, but finding the strength inside your heart to write the triangle for your characters is emotionally toiling on yourself and your emotional state. Especially if you're righting a wrong in a past life. Though we may not admit to writing our lives, I think good written emotion takes experience and you can't gain experience unless you've lived through it.
So...
Dear writers and readers, do you prefer the love triangle or the traditional meet? And if you're a fan of triangles, what's your favorite example of a good love triangle? If you dislike triangles, let me know your main complaint.
"One's first love is always perfect until one meets one's second love." Elizabeth Aston
As writers, we tend to foster emotional drama in our fictional lives. What fosters better drama than a love triangle? And not a soft triangle like conflict between two of the same sex, but an honest to goodness fight of raw emotion. The conflict that sucks all reason from the afflicted person's mind, the kind of emotion that leaves you breathless when you see someone, when your fingers touch, when your eyes meet. Passion is wonderful, but the ultimate goal for our characters is for them to experience the ever lasting feeling of love. Even if the love doesn't last, at least it leaves an impression inside of their heart for future reference. Love isn't exactly the easiest emotion to deal with and it's never pretty. The long hard road to realizing love is sometimes the dirtiest messiest fight you have to go through in life. But that doesn't mean the end result isn't worth it. It just makes you appreciate it more.
But what happens when your heart doesn't realize one love is enough? It seems so cruel to put ones character through their paces and make them agonize over love. It would be so easy to give your character the easy way out, give them the benefit of your past experience and they have to avoid all that unpleasantness of heartbreak. But what does your reader learn from reading your book? Nothing. What does your reader feel from reading that? Nothing. How will you draw your reader in if you give the character the easy way out? You won't. I'm not saying that a love triangle is what draws a reader in (hopefully it's the story and the emotion behind the characters) but what keeps me reading a series? Growing relationships. Character growth. A hot demon named Al (I'm just sayin') or a badass by the name of Ranger. Falling in love with a character as you read through the hundreds of pages and the writing makes you feel like you're right there. Love is a part of life- for the good, the bad, and the ugly.
The first time I can really remember reading a true love triangle was Ranger, Stephanie and Morelli (Janet Evanovich). Of course, in my mind there is no triangle. Ranger could have her hands down if he would just step up to the plate. Any man who can tells you he was going to spend the entire night ruining you for all other men, I say grab a hold of him and take him straight into the bedroom (or to the nearest wall, kitchen counter, sofa, table- seriously, if he's willing take it wherever) and don't let him leave.
Not to mention he walked into her apartment knowing he was going to be shot and was willing to die for her... come on. Hands down, the man is solid.
Of course, when Ranger finds Stephanie in the cabinet and there are no words exchanged between them for just seconds, but to them it felt like forever, I just knew. I knew I had to write something and it had to be about them. I felt passionate enough about that relationship to do something I'd never done before and write what needed to happen. In my mind, the triangle is solved. In the eyes of millions, it's still hanging in the balance waiting for its solution.
Okay, I completely got off topic. I think what struck so deeply within me about these characters was the underlying emotion simmering underneath the surface. Yeah, there is serious tension going on between all three of them, but it's the things that aren't spoken, the looks that are exchanged, and all the emotion that's never expressed. I'm drawn to the emotional drama of the triangle like a moth to the flame. I need that emotional draw to feel a story and keep reading. I need to know the characters could be real people, and the story line could be real. Fiction is only fictional in your mind. We might not be able to blow up dozens of cars and only end up with singed hair; but love and life are true regardless where we read or see it.
I planned on writing triangled relationships in my manuscripts. It's how I got my start and if it ain't broke, don't fix it. In the beginning of Sadie's story, Sadie was going to have a triangle going on with her two heroes. Then when I broke the characters down, I was pretty sure Kiki's story arc was going to involve a triangle. Then I realized that a triangle needs emotion to survive and since we all know Kiki is seriously lacking in the emotion department, the relationship triangle is going to be a soft triangle. More conflict than outright passionate love and desire- torn between two different lives and two different loves. It doesn't mean she couldn't love more than one person. Happens all the time, and hell if anyone is going to surprise me, it's going to be her. (Though, now that I say that, Sadie will probably surprise me and fall for three different guys and maybe a girl; but whatever. She deserves to live a little.) I think after you live a life surviving on the barest amounts of emotion, it's hard to find your way back to emotional zero and move forward. At this moment in time, a relationship triangle would be REALLY out of character for Kiki.
Living inside of a love triangle takes a bit of living in constant denial. Not wanting to face the reality of loving two people, having to eventually break someone's heart and walking away. Walking away from someone is the hardest thing you have to do when you still love someone. Wanting something better for them, wanting more for them when you know you can't give it to them. Dealing with a triangle is anything but easy, but finding the strength inside your heart to write the triangle for your characters is emotionally toiling on yourself and your emotional state. Especially if you're righting a wrong in a past life. Though we may not admit to writing our lives, I think good written emotion takes experience and you can't gain experience unless you've lived through it.
So...
Dear writers and readers, do you prefer the love triangle or the traditional meet? And if you're a fan of triangles, what's your favorite example of a good love triangle? If you dislike triangles, let me know your main complaint.
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87 comments:
"Living inside of a love triangle takes a bit of living in constant denial."
UH...see last weeks discussion regarding polyamory. It doesn't have to...
*giggle
;)
I don't mind love triangles as long as the girl ends up with the right boy, in this case: RANGER.
But I do love a good triangle though in a series, I have noticed that if a series carries on too long (i.e. Stephanie Plum, Anita Blake), it does wear on a reader's nerves a bit. You get a little tired of someone who goes home with the "comfortable" choice or the heroine who EVERYONE and their werewolf wants to screw. I'm not saying the stories aren't still good; they're entertaining, they're page-turning--but there comes a time for CLOSURE. Pick a horse and ride it already.
Am not a fan of love triangles. They usually just annoy me. I have no patience.lol. Haven't read JE and won't-not because of any bad feelings toward her or her writing, but because I am reading a million series AND I don't want to play catch-up on a new one for weeks. Same goes for LKH.(Am still shocked I caught up on ALL of the Dark Hunter books just because Elyssa Papa recommended Acheron-I am a good student that is always prepared.)
Maybe triangles annoy me because the right pick always feels SO obvious(which you pointed out!). Now, I don't mind heroine using another man to make hero jealous as long as she doesn't have sex with that man. Am very strict with my edicts(should be head mistress at a Catholic school?).
But outside of romance am more relaxed...sometimes.*g*
Hells, I so need closure,too! Um, sounds like I'm at an AA/dealing-with-loss-of-loved-one meeting(depressing!). But(obviously!*g*) I mean in books.Closure is so wonderful and fun. Probably why I prefer romance.
Sin,that picture is priceless. And the quote is so true-at least when you're young.
Okay, am ready to start a flame war for the day. From what I've heard about JE's Plum books, I think Morelli is the better hero!Mwahaha!
OMG! Hells, is LKH the one that has beastiality in her books? Or am I mistaken?
Another contribution to the geometry of love!
It is certainly possible to be deeply in love with two people, but not at the same time I think. Infatuation with two at the same time can happen, but deep love goes to another dimension.
I rather like Balogh's 'snow angels'. This is a distorted triangle story where a widow who was once deeply in love with her older husband, falls for a younger man who is about to be engaged to another. The man reciprocates her love on the eve of his engagement and both then head for the HEA.
The possibilities and potential combinations of these geometries is enormous and one could probably write a book of theorems on the subject.....there's an idea for you Sin!
Love related emotions are really complicated though, but your doing a great clarification job Sin.
I'm learning a lot from your weekly lessons. :lol:
MM, you are so bad. I love it.
Hellie, if Steph doesn't pick Ranger, I will wish myself a character and snatch him up for myself. Seriously... dark alley, a little Ranger action... *swoon*
Don't think I didn't see your comment Kelly. LOL
I think love triangles are good for a few books, but once you get to book 15 and you've still not settled anything.. please. If I were a character, and this was my book, my ass would've already walked away and said, "F*ck you buddy and the horse you rode in on." But that's just me. LOL I tend to tire of the whole, "Hm, I dunno who I'm going to pick because I love them both SO much that I can just string them along forever and I have them both so whipped that they will just follow along behind me." I don't like that. It's too wishy-washy as a heroine/hero. Now, if you're in love with two someone's for two or three books that's realistic.
I'll admit it, I don't particularly like love triangles. To me they are frustrating and I hate to be frustrated. (No one make a comment on this. *shoots glares around the ship*) Personally, I'm a serial monogamer (sp?) so that might be my issue. And lets be honest, dealing with feelings for one person is hard enough, add in feelings for another and why don't you just set the poor character on fire.
Why do I have the feeling Sin has probably set a character on fire before?
I think with a triangle, it takes effort to keep it going. It takes intention and that intention is usually negative to someone. Say there are two guys and a girl, those guys likely have animosity toward each other (I know, Mo, not always) so part of keeping up the triangle for them is to best or piss off the other guy. Then it's a relationship for the wrong reasons, the wrong intentions, and that bothers me.
I once had a character thrown in a shark tank. *shrug* I can't remember if I've set anyone on fire yet. I must go check.
Kelly, I'm not going to flame you for the Morelli comment. I'm going to sit in my crow's nest and make very sneaky plans ala Ranger style. LOL
I don't like characters using someone else to make the hero jealous. I like the jealousy that stems from the triangle plot and not being able to choose. The choice can seem so obvious for us, the reader and writer, but the character needs to truly be conflicted for the triangle to work properly.
Q, where I can agree with you that deep love is not something that happens often in multiples at the same time, how about this- What if a character was deeply in love with someone and walked away from them knowing they would never get over them and tried to move on. The character eventually finds someone else they love deeply and to the same degree they loved the first person and then the first person comes back into the character's life?
Does it become a case of unrequited deep love? And then, if it's still deep love, the character is deeply in love with two people. That's quite a conflict.
Okay, that's just giving me a headache. LOL!
I'm not a JE reader, but based on book one, the only one I have read, the number books are not really romances, are they? I think making a triangle work in an on-going series that is not romance is different from doing the same thing in a book that is straightforward romance.
In most romances that use the device, one point of the triangle is a "straw man/woman." The reader is never in much doubt about the identity of the H/H. Jennifer Haymore's A Hint of Wicked is based on a true triangle. The herpoine loves both men, but she must make a choice. I thought it was a risky novel that was skillfully crafted, but I prefer such books be the rare exception rather than the rule in my writing.
Interesting point Sin.
The character might be on an emotional cusp for a while, but in my opinion it would be resolved by the person supposedly deeply in love with both, falling to one side or the other of the cusp so that they could only focus such deep emotions on one person for any length of time. The alternative would be insanity.
Do yo decline to become Dr Euclid Sin? That leaves the door open for me! *grin*
Uhh, that should be "I prefer such books be the rare exception rather than the rule in my reading."
Ter - "add in feelings for another and why don’t you just set the poor character on fire." LMAO!!
Great blog Sin. I'm not usually a fan of triangles, only because they stress me out, big time. It's amazing how worked up I can get myself over fictional characters.
But man do they take work to maintain. I think the author has to have mutual feeling for both heroes to make it work -- if the author has a clear preference, it often shows. I know I tried to write the Ranger/Morelli traingle as-is in fanfic, and I couldn't do it. I just couldn't care about Morelli that much.
But I will say, when I was at school last month, I was sitting behind a group of women who were talking about Plum, and they were all cupcakes. And I can't remember exactly what was said, but I just burst out (totally without meaning too), "Ewww. Who wants to settle down with boring Morelli?" And I swear to god they all turned to me with bug eyes, like it had never occurred to them that there could possibly be any other ending. I also noticed that they were all in their 50's or 60's -- which made me wonder if there's a generational difference. If more cupcakes (clearly not all) are in an older generation than many babes (again not all *g*).
Q, dearest, you have right at it.
Isn't all love insanity?
Janga, you're right. JE's books are not classified as strictly romance novels. She calls them adventure books (which I'd have to agree because essentially they have no plot to them).
I must make a note to add this book to my TBR.
That reminds me, I met Jennifer at Nationals and she was the sweetest thing. Then I found out yesterday she's releasing her first Erotica under another name.
I know it's silly but I just can't imagine this sweet woman writing Erotica. LOL!
Sin, darling. Deep love for a single person is a bond that does alter certain thought processes. Its not insanity though IMO!
True love triangles are!
Morelli is boring.
Hal, it seems whenever I catch conversations in public with ladies talking about Plum they are always mooning over Morelli. I just want to tap them on the shoulder and say, "Really? Really?! Morelli? WTF."
It's amazing how wrapped up you can be in a fictional world. Of your own creation and of someone else's.
I can imagine anyone who reads the BDB books when Qhuinn and Blay's story comes full circle there will be some triangle action going on. Which will be very very interesting. Probably more so than V, Butch and Marissa's triangle. There wasn't much there, I thought there would've been but JRW proved me wrong.
I beg to differ. Love, no matter how deep and meaningful with one person, tends to drive a person insane. Although, I'm pretty sure I was insane to begin with. LOL
I will take your word for it, Q.
I have to side with Q on this one. But maybe more a little with both of you. I think it depends on the people in the relationship. Some couple constantly ignite sparks off each other and it's constant fireworks. The good kind or the irritating kind.
But others are more stable and constant. More subdued and even understated. Doesn't mean the love is not the same, it just burns differently.
So, love can seem like insanity in certain situations, and not so much in others. That's my take anyway.
You know, I was going to say that I'm not into love triangles until you mentioned Qhuinn and Blay and well, maybe I am. That one is just soooo going to be good. I love both of those characters, but I particularly love Qhuinn. I don't know why. All that hated for something out of your control thing.... Fantastic.
But for the most part, I doubt I'll write anything like that. Although I think I'm going to prove myself wrong again, because Ice and Marc's story is a love triangle with a demon.
So, basically, just ignore me.
Ter, I agree with you. There are different torches of love and life and how it all relates to the type of relationship you have.
I love love love Ice!
But I'll admit, the insane kind makes it easier to write an exciting book. LOL!
Gotta love some chaos while you're reading. But it's not so great to live through it. LOL
I think Steph would live a saner life with Morelli. And she should keep Ranger on the side. But that's wicked ole me.
People are complicated and I think it's a rare couple who are able to truly be all for each other. The longer we live, the healthier we are as we live...the more I think we are wired for more than one significant other. And the more men are growing open to actually admiring each other and not automatically fearing they are gay... Fear being the paramount... Ah forget this whole paragraph, I got lost...
I know in a series, I get peeved when the set up is with one guy...and you get invested in that relationship...and then they throw in another one just because they want to stir things up. (Watching Anita go from her werewolf honey to the vampire just drove me crazy.) It's more believable when they start with a triangle in the first place. Or start with no particular allignment in the first place.
Go on, Sin. Set someone on fire.
Maybe I'll set someone on fire.
S'mores, anyone?
I need caffeine.
Holy crap. I just remembered I have a story waiting on the back burner that is a love triangle. LOL! I totally forgot about that one. Though it'll be pretty cut and dry who the heroine really wants. She shows up with one brother as her fiance, but falls pretty quick for the other brother. She's not really torn about the "who do I love" thing but more "this family is going to hate me!" thing. LOL!
And the brother she loves is the stubborn, alpha dude, of course. He has to make things even more complicated. Bah!
Me too. Or at least more caffeine than I've already ingested today.
But now y'all have me wanting to set someone on fire. I can't imagine writing that imagery would be much fun or explaining how the smell hits you. Burned flesh is not appealing or poetic in any way. The way it melts off like wax...
*shudder*
I can't help that my imagination runs off wild regardless if I want it to or not.
Well, you're a detailed oriented writer. I'd just set someone on fire and then quickly move away from the particulars. Or do it from a distance. You'll write it with the smelly, crispy things happening just feet away.
Make it someone you really want to set on fire...
For someone who doesn't want to imagine or write it, you just gave us a pretty clear damn picture. LOL!
I love those sorts of stories Ter! You're gonna rock at that. That's got all sorts of potential emotional drama.
Well, she could have both brothers...
*high fiving MM*
Maybe I should write a blog on how to descriptively kill off someone next week. That could get interesting. Like killing someone off with chocolate frosting.
Heaven's, she's converting them now...
It could conveniently happen to end up as a threesome... What?! It could happen!
No, seriously, Ter, that's some serious heartache. Are you looking forward to writing it?
You'd never get a threesome with brothers. No three in a bed with bros. Now, two bedrooms...? Sure.
How do you kill someone with chocolate frosting? Either than the old drown them, sufficate them...slowly block their arteries... You could coat them with it and then set it on fire.
What is this, pyromaniac day?
I think I will write about killing people next week. You could make homemade chocolate frosting and lace it with poison. You could tie someone to a chair and suffocate them with chocolate frosting. You could feed a diabetic a whole bowl of frosting until they go into shock. Dearest MM, there are so many ingenious ways to kill people with chocolate frosting...
*evil laughing*
You guys are nuts.
My theory about the Morelli thing is that Morelli NEEDS someone. He's rather useless--he needs Stephanie; and I think the women who like Morelli more are women who find more relationship satisfaction in "nurturing" a man than in being equals, as the Ranger/Stephanie thing is. Ranger doesn't need Stephanie really--except maybe for the occasional emotional "I'm there for you thing" because God knows she's useless in everything else.
Strangely since Stephanie IS so useless in the kitchen, et al, it amazes me that Morelli wants her--and he's convinced she'll eventually learn to cook. But in the end, he does want a woman who will take care of him and he hopes Stephanie will do it. Even if she just calls his favorite pizza place in time for dinner.
Ranger is almsot the reverse. he's the one taking care of Steph--and she's pretty much not pulling her own weight in that regard. Maybe the Morelli fans prefer Morelli because the dynamics of the relationship are more "balanced" in roles, whereas with Ranger, he is doing everything and Stephanie is just enjoying herself.
It's Lazy, because I think Stephanie would eventually find her own place with Ranger if she tried.
Sin - I am looking forward to it. The story takes place on Ocracoke Island which means small world and one that I've actually visited. LOL! That entire island is about 3 miles long and only inhabited on about one mile.
The hero is a fishing/charter boat captain so I'll still have some research to do, but I won't be as out of my element as I am with the chef stuff. :)
ITA Hellie. Steph shows signs of competence sometimes when she's with Ranger. But with Morelli its a constant battle of their incompetence together.
That should rile up some people. LOL
I don't know why we get all twisted about a book series. Obviously if these characters were real, I would've found them by now and kicked some ass.
The title of that blog has to be DEATH BY CHOCOLATE.
LOL!
I'd swear I read an excerpt of an Erotica that had one woman and two brothers and they all enjoyed each other together. But I can't for the life of me remember what it was and it's been so long now, I'll never find it again.
Which drives poor Dee nuts since she pesters me to remember this thing. LOL!
That shall be my title next week: Death... by chocolate.
hahahaha
I've only read book one in the Plum series, but though Morelli had that naughty boy charm, he was still an ass. If that's the first impression, how much better could it get from there? LOL!
Didn't she bring another dude into the scene? How about Steph runs away with him?
How about a blog where you talk bout characters you want to slap?
We'll let Sin wax on and on about Ranger, the other dude.
Oh no, you might be referring to Diesel, Ter. Who I think is a little mix between Morelli and Ranger except he has a little paranormal ability. Very strange and weird in the Plum world. He's getting his own spin off series. We'll see if it takes.
I can wax poetically about Ranger 24 hours a day the whole year. Don't get me started.
Morelli is naughty boy charm with ASSHOLE all up in it. But Ranger is naughty boy charm with all MAN to counter it.
I can see the lure of Morelli--esp in the first four books--but he's nothing compared to Ranger. It's no contest. The only other theory I got is that JE said, "Ranger is a man who doesn't exist. He's too perfect." Therefore she teams up Stephanie with Morelli because he's a guy who does exist: naughty boy charm with ASSHOLE mixed all in.
Did I leave the series before Diesel came in? I don't remember him...
He's in the between books. They are holiday books. Diesel has gotten a little more appealing with each inbetween book. Even I admit that he's hot.
LOL. Hellie, I do love you.
Ah, skipped those. Think JE is getting tired of both Morelli and Ranger?
I got distracted for a while!
Terri said: I have to side with Q on this one. But maybe more a little with both of you. I think it depends on the people in the relationship. Some couple constantly ignite sparks off each other and it’s constant fireworks. The good kind or the irritating kind.
But others are more stable and constant. More subdued and even understated. Doesn’t mean the love is not the same, it just burns differently.
So, love can seem like insanity in certain situations, and not so much in others. That’s my take anyway.
Always the diplomat Terri! *grin*
It seems to me that there is a certain pot of available love, lets call it emotional juice, and when two people are deeply in love, all of the juice is used. If that love is split in 'n' ways, them only a fraction 1/n of the juice is available for each individual. Any one who has had a cheating spouse will have experienced the drop in juice level. In my proposed book on 'Euclidean Love', this will be referred to as the law of conservation of love juice *grin*
I am convinced that to maintain maximum juice for two or more people will lead to the lunatic asylum!
I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the term "love juice." Though it does sound like something MM might add to a drink.
Yes, that's me, always teetering on the fence. :)
Sin - I almost said Diesel then thought for sure I would be wrong. LOL! I didn't realize he was only in the in-between books. When will his books hit the pavement?
I'm cracking up at Q talking about love juice.
I dunno about Diesel's books. I heard rumors that he's getting his own spin off. I don't know if there are specific dates out yet. And I'm pretty sure it's going to be a graphic novel, which will be interesting to see how well it does.
Q, what if there is too much love juice for one person to handle, therefore there must be two people involved with the one producing too much?
:lol:
By definition, you can never have too much love.
Perhaps I should change the notation to something more abstract. Juice is easily visualised but clearly open to misinterpretation. :roll:
The sum total of love available from a given person shall be re-named the love quota.
I'm seeing an equation forming in your head, Q. Has a bunch of symbols and whatnots doesn't it?
No flaming? That's so not cool. I went out of my way to wreak havoc and you decided to be grown ups.*stamps foot* LOL!
I think the *idea* of Morelli appeals to me because I go for the lighter hearted kind of guy-oh, he can have deep, painful secrets but he's not constantly brooding or acting pissed(PS: I'm not describing Ranger. Actually don't have a picture of him in my head at all).If I ever read the Plum books(do NOT hold your breath.*g*) I will weigh in with you on my true pick.
Ter, I am currently writing a WIP with my least fave plot device. The secret baby! Or the...not so secret baby?...Hm. So, you're writing a love triangle next? Fun! Though I hate them, I'll read yours happily.:)
Sin, one last thing, what the heck kind of book are you writing? Killing and, according to Ter, setting people on fire? So romantic.LOL! but I want to read.
The secret baby!! I love that plot device! I dunno what it is about a secret baby plot device that I love, maybe it's the drama, dunno, but I'm sure you're doing it justice.
Hm, I'm not killing people with chocolate frosting in my book.. I promise.
Secret alien love baby.
Come on!
Yeah, I know, where me pirate speak.
In a box with the compass, I think.
I love the juice analogy, Q. But...the more people, the more juice according to polyamory. Sure, sometimes the juice doesn't mix well or compliment each other and..
Nevermind, I got lost again...
I need a compass today. No, a friendly GPS.
And frosting.
Terio - Never enough love juice, baby.
I see yer challenge and accept! Get back ta ya later...
This should be interesting...
hahaha
So, what was the blog topic today?
I see a lot of not quite triangles in historicals... sort of the affaire of the heart, not the body. Sinning in the mind, not physically, I suppose.
I'm not sure they count. But I'm some of a sensualist. I think... I'm not sure... Not that affaires of the mind and heart aren't as interesting as affaires of the body. I think you're mainly speaking of affaires of the heart where my mind is in the gutter.
Making muck pies.
We have a guest tomorrow, don't we? I promise, I'll behave. Get it all out of my system right now.
Yeah, should be a good time tomorrow.
And you know I like when you misbehave :) It makes for more exciting blog days.
I'm with you. For me, a triangle is a physical connection between three people. It has to be one helluva mental love affair to count on my scale.
Hm. Okay. So while we're on that topic and we're going down that road. What about phone sex? You're not physically touching someone but you are mentally touching them.
I'm pondering. This triangle business is tricky.
Phone sex is cheating. Clean and simple.
But another form of the love triangle, which occured to be from Chance's comment, is the one where one member is not really there. Meaning something like the hero's wife passed and the heroine is trying to win him but he can't get over her.
Very complicated situation as the living heroine has no way of fighting a memory. She's not really *there* but she's always *there*.
If you're in a relationship with both people it can't qualify as cheating. Well, as long as all parties know there are more than one person involved. But I imagine if you're in a love triangle everyone involved knows what's going on.
Geez! How the guilt involved in that sort of relationship makes it hard to compete with.
Wow, Terrio! You have a triangle in your current WIP! I do think that is the worst kind of triangle to try to live through. The dead/distant/divorced/wife. How the guilt involved in that sort of relationship.
Now, phone sex. Cheating or not. Here is where things get tricky. Because when does flirting go from just flirting to betrayal? I remember when Jimmy Carter admitted to adultery in his mind, because he had felt lust for other women. I think that is going too far on the other side of that scale...but actual phone sex? Well...what about uh...master-youknow to pornography? When does is that different to fantasizing about tab B when you're with tab A?
I'm not sure there are any absolute certainties. The only one who knows if they are actually cheating is the cheater. And the cheatee? May have different standards and they count, too...
Anyone else catching the side drama in Saving Grace with Ronnie and Loretta? He swears he didn't sleep with the woman Grace saw him kissing...if that was all he did, was it cheating? Sorta depends on Loretta, right? ;)
So, Sin. Is Stephanie technically cheating on Morelli? Or Ranger?
One thing I found fascinating about their triangle was that both guys were aware, without getting all vocal, that they both 'knew' Stephanie in the biblical sense.
And Morelli still sent her to Ranger for security. And Ranger still sent her home when all was safe... What sort of triangle is that? Really, really, really close to a polyamory situation.
No. Well, maybe. Sometimes Morelli and Steph are in a "relationship" but Morelli is always aware of the activities in the dark alley with Ranger. Or that Steph sleeps in Ranger's bed. Or lets him feel her up. But I'm starting to agree with you the more we talk about it. It's a little polyamory.
And the complexity of triangles is a little more intensive than I originally thought.
Maybe it's important to talk about cheating and boundaries in relationships. That way it's all out in the open and no one has any misunderstandings about what the expectations are.
Or your significant other.
Yup, and don't let a definition that someone else uses define what it means to you.
This was one weird blog day.
I have realized today I do enjoy the polyamory (by the way, Irish showed this word to her husband and when she met me for breakfast last Friday, he asked her how the polyamory interviews were going *LOL* Sorry tangent.) in the LKH Anita Blake books. She's got more triangles going on than any geometry book could possibly hold. There's a little threesome with her and Nathaniel and Jason in the opening of Blood Noir--and it was kinda hot--but it was definitely of the "all about Anita" sort of sex. And it had a little bondage thrown in, so maybe that's why I enjoyed it more. *LOL*
I don't know how their relationship works though. It's weird how the relationship works--and yet it doesn't. And mostly I think it works because Anita is the alpha of all the men in her life. She's a protector of most, if not all, of them. The guys are very alpha-ish, but not on Anita's level.
I don't know if I'd call Phone Sex cheating, but I think I get where Terri was going with it. There is an "emotional cheating" where everything gets confused. And again, I think 2nd points out a key problem: what if you're fantasizing about someone else during sex, are you cheating on them even if you're having sex with them?? Flirting can be emotional cheating, but for some of us, flirting is like breathing but the intent and meaning is shallow.
I don't know. People are complicated. And expecting them to be so pure and devoted seems a lot to ask. Actually it's not the expecting part that bothers me. We all want that person--but to put such restrictions on a person or indicate if they don't follow it, our love is conditional--that seems like it would have a negative effect. Anytime you make love conditional, you are bound to get hurt or be disappointed.
Of course, loving unconditionally gets you the reputation for being a doormat.
I have to apologize, the phone sex answer was a knee jerk reaction. I have those when this topic comes up.
IMO - feeling lust or physical attraction to a person other than your SO is human nature. Acting on it is when the problems start. Taking care of yourself be it with or without the aid of pornography is not cheating. Again, just my opinion. That's only a problem if it becomes something uncontrolled or damaging to real life relationships. Lots of gray area there.
I'm sorry, my cat just got a shot of one of those auto air fresheners up his nose. LOL! Where was I?
Oh, for me, being open with each other is the ost important thing. If one does something they know full out the other would feel hurt by, then they shouldn't do it. Which is why every relationship is unique.
Oh! Poor Bumblebee! I remember when me beagle got hold of a binaca breath spray once...poked through it and got a mouthful of breah spray. I laughed my ass off! He looked so offended!
Anyway, yeah, it almost comes down to a negotiation between partners on what defines what. And keeping lines of communication open because things really do change.
When uncertain, talk about it.
And yup, Hel...LKH writes a lot of polyamory situations. With strong males that don't necessarily compete with each other but work together...to please Anita.
I'm not sure unconditional love is possible. But an awareness of how conditions change is the key.
No, I don't think anyone is able to love unconditionally, not even mothers--and they'd be the most likely candidates. Unconditionally loving someone you didn't give birth to?--pretty much impossible. We're too complicated.
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