How Hot Do You Like It? Dee S. Knight Dishes About Firemen, Hoses, and Elixirs
Hellion: Aboard this ship, we love our men like we love our rum: strong, fiery, and able to sweep us off our feet. And like our rum, we like these men to be plentiful, but of excellent quality. (Nothing worse than bad rum…and poorly written men.) So it is with great enthusiasm and sincere delight that I welcome back to the ship, the most wonderful critique partner and writer of men who meet all these qualities, Dee S. Knight!
Dee: I see you’ve been hitting the rum this morning, Hells. Flattered as I am….
Hellion: It’s all true! Sin, tell her it’s true….
Sin: Of course, it’s true. Do you think Dee would call a fiction writer a liar? Now come, Dee, and have a seat. I see you shed your saintly sister, Anne, for this trip. How is she doing?
Dee: I'd never call a fiction writer a liar. Not exactly…. Um, Sister Anne is reading up on past Dear Abby columns to see if she can best me in next week's A Little Sisterly Advice answer. No way she can, of course, but hey, gotta give her credit for trying. Thanks for asking, Sin!
Hellion: That’s all nice, but I want to talk about firemen. Your newest book with Liquid Silver Books is called Hearts Afire, and it’s about a fireman named Harm Reynolds. (Great name by the way!) Tell us more about this hunky, sexy guy—what’s he like, who did you base him off of, does he like a woman who cooks, and would he take me out on a date if I baked him some brownies?
Dee: Harm is a sucker for brownies, Hell, but I'm not sure about a date. Beth has him twisted around her grubby little finger now. He has past wife issues, too, you know, so maybe he should bake you brownies as a date bribe! I didn't base him off anyone, sad to say. He's all figment. In fact, with few exceptions I've never based a character off anyone I know. It's not that I don't know interesting people who would make great characters--writers, travelers, musicians, pirates--I just think it's safer and more fun to make people up. A good friend named three characters in her first book after her friends and gave them sketchily similar traits. Surprise, surprise! None of them were happy. That's because we almost never see ourselves as others see us. To me, it's just safer to create characters entirely. Though a couple of the guys I work with--after they found out my heroes were hunks who got beautiful women and lots of sex--have asked me to base characters on them, lol. I guess they hope the story line will rub off.
Hellion: It’s truly tragic that the best men are almost always fiction. Moving on: as hot as you made him, you made his heroine as cold as ice. In fact, she’s called Ice Queen. Do you like to put characters together who are of the opposites attract variety, or did you want to simply find out at what temperature ice melts? *grins* And how quickly did she melt, by the way?
Dee: She melted faster than a Dairy Queen hot fudge sundae in a chocolate-dipped waffle dish on an Atlanta August afternoon. The third time he was with her, he was with her, if you catch my drift. (I know Cap'n Sparrow does, 'cause he has that hungry look in his eye. And who can blame him, with all the Dairy Queen talk??) When I heard the Hearts Afire series had to feature firemen, my first thought was of fire, heat, flames. (What imagination! It's why I get paid the big bucks. Haha. More rum, if you please.) I liked the idea of pitting him against someone who was thought to be the opposite. The fact that he never sees her as cold when everyone else does, is a hint that they're made for each other. I don't always use opposites in characters. Sometimes it's fun for characters to have the same traits. When both the heroine and hero want to be on top, the sparks can be fun.
Hellion: I like to be on top. Jack usually wins the coin toss though. (I think he had a double-headed coin though.) Never mind. Did you do a lot of research about firemen, life in a firehouse, et al, to help with this book? What sorts of interesting things did you find out that you got to use?
Dee: LOL! As you know, we live a mere block from a firehouse. A friend recommended I go up and interview a fireman. I'm too shy (yes, Demure is my middle name) to tell a man I'd like to interview him for an erotic romance. So, no, no personal research. God bless the Internet! The only experience I've ever had with firemen was when our apartment burned when I was 5 or 6, and when the alarm went off over and over in our apartment building in San Francisco. The SF firemen were such hunks I think my tongue hung out. When the alarm went off the second (and third and fourth) time, I raced to the lobby--as did most of the men in the building--just to watch the brigade. And before you ask, I swear I didn't pull the alarm!
Hellion: Sure, you didn’t. Don’t worry, we won’t tell, Dee. You’re well known for writing emotionally touching, yet sexy books. (You frequently get 4 or 5 cup-star-and heart reviews because of this talent.) What advice would you recommend to writers who are trying to do the same?
Dee: Gosh, thanks! I think when I first started writing I told a pretty emotional story but with only marginal understanding of craft. When I found out that you were actually supposed to understand POV and scenes and silly stuff like conflict and motivation, I lost some of the emotion of the story because I was concentrating so hard on the craft. A good friend and wonderful writer, Jasmine Haynes, guided me back when she first read the Burning Bridges proposal years ago. She kept asking, "What is she feeling about this situation?" So, I'd pass along her same advice. When your characters have faced off (or bedded as so many of mine do), don't just describe what they're doing, ask yourself what they're feeling. I keep striving for Jasmine's expertise, but I hope I've found a decent balance between craft and emotion.
Hellion: Wow, writers really are like therapists, aren’t they? Ironic that my own characters are as reluctant to discuss their feelings as I am with my therapist. *LOL* Throughout many of your stories, your heroines are usually strong, independent career women who have confidence in pretty much every area of their life but romance. Would you say this is a common theme in your stories? If so, what do you hope readers will learn from your heroines?
Dee: Are they?? Gosh, I'm not sure I ever thought of it. You know, the strange thing is, I don't think of myself as being strong and full of confidence. Maybe I write my heroines the way I'd like to be! What I wish for my readers more than anything else is that they spend a few hours engrossed in my characters and plot and be entertained. Mine aren't message books. I like that heroines today usually seek out the alpha male, but not those of romances thirty years ago. Heroines today are hard to satisfy wenches! They want someone equally strong who will encourage them to reach their stars and be happy as individuals as they are as halves of a couple. I guess that's what we all wish for. That's what I try to provide. I'd like my readers to smile and say, "Awwww…" at the end of my books while they're out finding their own romance.
Hellion: This is your fifth book with Silver Books, but your 17th book/story you’ve published, yes? What do you like best about e-publishing?
Dee: Not quite. I have seven novels and novellas, all with Liquid Silver (nine of you count Anne's Burning Bridges with BookStrand). There are two short stories published as standalone books with Whispers Publishing, and I'm in nine anthologies, between Liquid Silver, Samhain and now Siren-BookStrand. I really like e-publishing. When I first started seven years ago, the big name publishers dissed e-pubs as being fly-by-night outfits with bad editors and few talented writers. The insults were deserved in many cases, but it's mostly not the case today. That's why many e-pubbed authors have gone on to be NY pubbed authors and why so many NY publishers are making sure they gain the e-rights to books. People will always want a book to "hold," but that term is changing in context as devices like Kindle increase in usability and decrease in price. I've been very lucky to be involved with honest, business people who recognized the need for good book covers and excellent editing, and maybe that's why I've been pretty happy where I am.
Oh, gosh, your question was what I liked best, lol. I think the shorter length of time you hear back on a submission and the general lack of restrictions placed on authors. With the e-publishers I write for, it's pretty much if you have a good idea, you'll probably be able to write it and have it accepted.
Hellion: Sweet! That is a rarity! Go e-publishing. What project are you working on now?
Dee: Well, the same day Hearts Afire - June (which I share with talented, Colleen Love) was released, another anthology project, Tasty Treats Volume 1 came out from Siren-BookStrand. It contains "The Elixir," my first attempt at a ménage. I had fun working through the challenge of how to handle one woman and two men, so I've started two more. One is intended as a novel and the other (hopefully) will be part of another anthology next fall. The novel is a contemporary western and the shorter story is a futuristic Old West, if that makes sense. Once I get past these two stories, I'd like for Anne to get her rear in gear and finish the first in her series. If you have me back, I'll tell you about it. *grin*
Hellion: Well, of course, we’ll have you back! And if Anne gets her rear in gear, we’ll have her on as well. *grins* We won’t even make her share the limelight with you.
Dee: Gee, thanks. *lol*
Hellion: What else do you have going on?
Dee: Jack (not Cap'n Jack, just Jack, who writes as Francis Drake), and I are also thinking of combining forces and writing a few books collaboratively. In that case, we'll create yet another pen name, lol. Funny, I don't have trouble keeping name and genre separate. Wonder what that says about me? When I write I often have the whole book laid out in my head. I have taken to outlining more (after someone we know and love showed me a good way to go about it, Hellion) and Jack and I brainstorm, often over breakfast at our favorite restaurant. It's a family joint, so we have to watch how detailed our brainstorming gets… Anyway, it keeps life interesting being these different writers and moving my characters around like paper dolls.
Hellion: *LOL* I know the restaurant. That is a great place to brainstorm, I’m sure. They’d definitely keep the coffee coming. I love how you refer to your characters as paper dolls because that’s the last thing your characters feel like. We all wish we had paper dolls as well-rounded as the characters you write. Sin still flinches if I bring out that plotting board, by the way. It’s almost like Post Traumatic Stress Disorder with her. I’m glad you could make it work for you though! Well, I think I’ve finally run out of questions. I should let the crew ask some. Would you like more rum? Would you like some croissants and chocolate? A pillow to prop your feet up? Please stay awhile and visit—do you have any questions for us?
Dee: I'd love to slurp some rum and prop up my feet, thanks! Let's see, questions… I know you're too Amish for sex scenes, Hellion, but I also know Sin isn't. But how about some of the rest of you pirates? Does anyone else write erotic romance? If not, why not? If so, please tell me the biggest hurdle you had to overcome. I just jumped into ER because I was too stupid to know I shouldn't. My biggest problem (and based on the fireman book, still is) telling people what I write. Erotic romance aside, do you all have trouble telling people you write romance? Do you find people dismiss your writing as not "literary?
Thanks so much for inviting me aboard! The rum...I mean the questions and company have been great!!!
Books by the Crew
152 comments:
Feel free ta peruse the bar menu, Dee... If'n ya like chocolate, I recommend the Captains Cocoa Puff as it comes wit' a calorie free brownie!
Regardin' yer question...I be workin' on erotic stories but seem ta fine meself between not hot enough ta be straight erotic but not 'nuff deepenin' relationship ta be erotic romance. Sigh.
'course, I'm not sure I write romance... But the genre blog was a few months ago. Suffice ta say, I seem ta defy a single sort-a classification. I tell people I write and I say romantic adventure. So far, no rollin' eyes. But I finds when ya hold yer cutlass at waist level, they don't tend ta scoff much...
A grand harah fer e-books! Long may they rule the cyber waves!
Now, after the CCP, I recommend a Glittery Hooha, I'll sneak me bottle of extra strong hoo outta me secret stash fer ya! Jus' don't tell Sin ya saw where I stash it!
Hi Dee! *waving wildly* Glad to have you back!
I don't write erotic. I think I have a few steamy scenes and I like a lot of sexual tension, but that's as far as I go. And I don't think I could ever write a convincing menage. I think we talked about this recently, but I think I'd have a hard time finding guys who'd step aside while their gal was having a good time with another.
And the reverse of that too.
As far as telling people I write, most of the people close to me know I write. I spend so much of my free time on writing.
Though it's not a secret, I rarely bring it up. Most people who don't write don't understand. And if they do have that "not literary enough" response, I end up defending the genre and, well, while I will, it can be an awkward conversation.
So, I leave it usually at, "I write romance novels" and if they ask questions or go further, I'll feel it out. Sorta like I would if I were wading into a murky stream.
Welcome Dee!
I'm just starting out on my first book and am more of a contemp/mystery writer. As a reader though, I've just recently starting pickign up some erotic romances and have been very happily surprised.
I find that the heroines are usually more spirited and sure of themselves in erotic romances than in many traditional romances. Since whiny, insecure female leads are the one thing that can make me put a book down, I might be reading more erotic romances in the future.
Chance, figuring out how to classify your writing/story is probably the biggest hurdle when it comes to submitting/querying. It doesn't matter how great your query letter or first three chapters is if the market you happen to be submitting to doesn't fit what your story really is. (It's a catch 22, I think. I mean, we want to be able to just sell our stories as wonderful, entertaining stories; but then how can you sell something if you don't know what market you're taking it to? You don't peddle your erotica at a church bizaar, you know; and you don't typically peddle your christian fic at goth faires.)
Multi-genres is nice, blending, so you can market across a few different things, but in the end, you still need one main genre/theme. It's like in your stories. Your stories have many characters and subplots, but the story truly belongs to one person: who is it? Same with genres, you belong somewhere: where do you belong most?
*LOL* Marn, I get the "feeling it out" bit. A sort of: Are there sharks here? I don't think I hear JAWS playing. I do that a lot. You end up putting on your best poker face and saying things purely to see what the reaction is, to see if you can reveal more.
Nice to have the lovely and talented Dee back on the ship. We always learn so much when you're here. And we get to talk sex which so rarely happens. *said with totally straight face*
I've written one Erotic Romance short story which you were generous enough to look over for me. I still have your notes and I still intend to fix that puppy up and get it out there. With your input, I know it'll be 200 times better.
I never wrote a sex scene until I decided to write that short story. I still have no idea why I thought I could do it. I guess figuring I'd read tons of sex scenes and had sex a time or two (okay, maybe three) that it couldn't be too hard. Yeah, so wrong. LOL!
I tell people I write Romance if they ask. Funny enough, the reaction I get from men is usually positive. The only negative is when women then ask, "Do you have any books out already?" I really hate the question. LOL!
Sabrina, you should totally read Dee's book: Burning Bridges. (Okay, it's by her "sister" Anne Krist: http://annekrist.com/.) It's brilliant. Everything Dee writes is magical and emotional, but if I had to do a read this first pick, this would be the one.
But if you want something a little spicier but poignant: http://deesknight.com/comingHome.html is awesome too.
*coughs* I mean, as well as the wonderful, great reads she has out this month as well! Maybe you should get the two news ones as well. You know, a sort of "something old, something new, something sexy, something true" sort of thing.
I always love when Dee comes aboard.
*biting lip*
I don't usually tell people I write. In fact, when people find out that I like to write, they kinda give me that puppy dog look and look at me one way and then look at me another and say, "Hm, I didn't know you were that creative" or "Hm, this wasn't a hobby of yours when we first started dating." So very few people in my personal life actually know I'm a closet writer.
Now, for sex scenes. I can't write anything like you can (Can you say, OMG- hotter than the August day in the middle of a Georgia summer, Dee. Jeez, I wanna be able to write like you someday.) but I really try to make a sex scene believable and readable. Since I'm a speed reader, I usually skim sex scenes for dialogue and keep going. I can be persuaded to read a sex scene if it's really good.
Since Dee pointed out I'm too Amish for erotic sex writing--which she's merely quoting me--I barely write the non-erotic kind of sex. (Actually is there a non-erotic kind of sex? And more importantly would anyone want to engage in that? I wouldn't think so.)
Dee always made everything I wrote 200 times better. *LOL* Sex scene or not. (Terri does a great job at this too. I remember having a mental break down about my GOGU sex scene--because a BOY had read it--and I was wailing that it so horribly sucked. And it did. Which was sad because no actual sucking was going on in that scene...never mind--and Terri went in and Amished it up for me a little because I had been a bit more technical and a little less romantic about the whole thing.)
Dee not only polished my stuff into something brilliant, she also attributed me with literary meaning in my scenes that I by no means had any intention when I wrote the scene. It was awesome.
Do I tell people I write romance? Not overly. I'll say things like, "I'm a writer." "Of what?" "Novels." "What kind of novels?" "Romance." "What, you mean bodice rippers?" "I guess you could call them that" (since you just did.)--and then the conversation ends there. But then it would turn to sex as all romance novels lead, right?
I almost have stopped people I write just because I get the other question of: "Have you had anything published?" and as proud as I am of my essay being published when I was 17, I don't think it counts. Even if MY essay was the first essay they ever decided to publish. (You know if years from now I find out they only decided to start publishing the essays as a marketing ploy and not because they actually liked my essay, I think I will be sored devastated. However, there were FOUR winners and I think mine was the one they published...)
I must out Sin right here. I've read her sex scenes and they made my freaking monitor smoke. Crazy hot!
Just sayin'...
And I *know* where the stash is, MM. I just haven't found the key. Yet.
Sin, whyever would you need a key? We know you pick locks.
*grin* Yes, but you guys are always watching me. Remember, I have performance anxiety.
And Ter, my face is bright red. Thanks alot for outting me. It's not THAT hot.
It's SO that hot. *LOL*
Grrr! Good mornin' Pirates! Sorry to be late but my "new" (and I mean brand skanpin' new) computer installed the "new" IE last night and now not much is working right. I'd love to make Microsoft walk the plank... But that's a topic so another time. I only know I need rum even though it's only 9:30 AM or so.
2nd Chance, I feel your pain as to which genre you write in. I frankly don't understand why everything has to be either/or, but it seems they do. I have a wonderfully talented friend--you've probably read her work, though I shouldn't say who it is--who spent months and months in world building and writing a fabulous fantasy trilogy. Everyone she submitted to said it was neither true fantasy or romance, and it never went anywhere. That doesn't diminish it's brilliance, but it does make it hard to make a living...
My advice (for what it's worth after a few drinks, and accepting that you didn't ask for it) is to decide firmly on a genre, make sure what you write fits firmly in that genre and then sell, sell, sell. Once your name is known you can get by with a little more.
It amazes me how romance and fantasy folks can't stand each other. *LOL* Fantasy hates anything that smacks of romance; and the romance folk don't like being upstaged by the fantasy realm. It's weird. You kinda want to go around saying, "Can't everyone just get along!"
Hellion, I think our friends at the restaurant still think you're our daughter, lol. Lynette said just the other day to tell you hi.
Marnee, I'm not so shy about telling people I write romance anymore. When Burning Bridges came out--and especially after it was in print--I handed out bookmarks to everyone I met, lol. When it comes to telling people about erotic romance, well, that's different. I still don't volunteer that info. It's not that I'm ashamed, not at all. I'm proud of what I've written in ER. But a lot of people do NOT understand. And you know, if you saw me or knew me, I'm among the last people in the world you would suspect of writing the "F" word or about sex.
I'm such a wuss. :)
Woo-hoo, Terrio! Talented and LOVELY! You need glasses, woman. But thanks.
You know, I find sex scenes kinda hard to write, too. It's taken me awhile to get past describing the action and get into the emotion, which I think is the secret to a good sex scene. I haven't mastered it, but that's my goal.
And I agree, Sin's sex scenes are ... well, Sin-fully good!
Hellion, I still have trouble explaining to people about e-publishing. When I say I write they always say, "Anything I might have read?" And I always say, "Probably not." :)
It's sad. really.
Pirates, Jack is dragging me into Chicago today to lunch with his brother and sis-in-law. It is that we're moving soon and he devised this dastardly plan to meet last night before he knew I'd planned to be with you all today. However, I'll be back in a few hours.
Then I'd like to talk about menages, and how hard they are for me to write. I appreciate the comments I've seen this morning--that ER heroines seem strong and that it's strange for a guy to willingly share his woman with another man--and I have comments about those things, too.
Have some rum--I'll be back before you know it.
Hellion, I was so frustrated for my fantasy/romance writing friend. Everyone told her the story was good, but where to put it on the bookstore shelf? That was what stopped everyone. Well, jerks, here's an idea: put it in both sections. I guess that's too innovative for people to consider...
My contacts are working just fine, thankyouverymuch. LOL!
Speaking of attributing, Hellie just attributed something very nice to me. How sweet. I'd forgotten about that. LOL!
I have to wonder why I never get these negative "you mean bodice rippers" kind of questions. Even in all the years of telling people what I read, I never heard this negative stuff much. Though I have come across the occassional display of ignorance. That can't be helped really. LOL!
"put it in both sections..."
Brilliant! LOL!
I've thought about this multiple partner thing before and have never been able to wrap my brain around how to write it. As you say, it's so important to keep the emotion high which (to me) means I have to establish a level of connection and intimacy between the characters. No idea how to do that with more players.
Can't wait to hear your take on it!
*LOL* Dee, I would love to be your daughter, although it would clearly make you an absurdly child bride. Actually I think you were a child bride, weren't you?
Tell Lynette hi from me as well!
I think I mostly stopped assuming about romance and erotica writers when I met "Melissa Macneal" and she said she was a Sunday School teacher--and I'd read her book Satan's Angel and though, "You have got to be kidding me." Because she LOOKED like a Sunday School teacher.
People assume romance authors all look like Jackie Collins, I think. Glamourous, always wearing lipstick, et al. Sort of how you think telephone operators--if they have a sexy voice--must look as Marilyn Monroe as they sound. Nope, some of us look like Harry Potter. I'm so sorry to disappoint.
You don't look like Harry Potter, Dee. Just me.
"Everyone told her the story was good, but where to put it on the bookstore shelf? That was what stopped everyone."--
Ah, Dee, that's the problem with humans. Our way of understanding things is to compartmentalize them. We believe in black and white justice systems, have very clear points of what is right and wrong, but live so much of our lives in gray area. Having a book in two genres is having something that lives in gray area, when marketing wants you to pick either black or white.
Which is sad because that makes such a childishly narrow sort of book.
But the question is: has the marketing gotten BETTER or WORSE since the industry started? Are we expected to write more "formula" now or do we have more freedom? Or is it the same formula but diffent chains? (I.e. we no longer have the forced seduction rape stuff, but now we have to have very explicit sex scenes--since those non-sex Regencies have basically been done away with.)
We all know what I think of threesomes. I can't handle the competition; and I at no point want to put myself in the position where I might be forgotten and never returned to...at least if I'm the only other person in the room, the odds are pretty slim the other person will decide to finish while I'm not there.
I'm going to be one of those writers who wears their hair back in a pig tails and ratty jeans and a hoodie. And sunglasses because lights hurt my eyes. Hellie is going to be wearing stripper shoes and have that wicked grin she's always toting.
That wicked grin is the only thing about me that looks wicked. I very much look like the Sunday School teacher. *LOL* A Sunday School teacher who wears stripper shoes. It's sad really.
LOL. You do not look like a Sunday School teacher. Maybe a hot librarian. But not the Sunday School teacher.
And you do not look like HP.
And neither does Dee. Dee is very classic and sweet and extremely kind. Old Hollywood. She doesn't have to be all dolled up to get your attention. It's all about personality. She draws them in like bees to honey.
Actually, I don't think anyone aboard looks like a Sunday School teach. Sorry to disappoint, y'all.
Don't worry. None of us suggested that you looked like a Sunday School teacher, Sin. *LOL*
And I've read your comment Dee about my sex scenes and I'm thoroughly blushing. Nothing is as good as yours but it's a high compliment you pay my writing when you say that dear.
Well, Hell, I know I don't. LOL I have horns. I can't step within a foot of a church without angels screaming for me to stay away.
I don't look like a Sunday School teacher, but I have soccer mom written all over me. Or I guess that would be softball mom? Though, I REFUSE to get a mini-van. Nope, not gonna do it.
Hellie does not look like a Sunday School teacher or a librarian. She looks wicked naughty and always has that air about her that says, "I've got a secret and I'm not telling." (In the sing-song voice you'd expect.)
To defend the marketing, it's just not good business sense to buy take on a product if you don't know how or to whom you're going to sell it. It has nothing to do with creativity or art or expression, it's simple business.
I'm sure my laugh only re-enforces that "I'm up to something" belief. Coworkers are always saying that about my laugh.
Hell, if I was that entertaining, you'd think I'd get more dates. *yawns* Ah, well, one of life's ironies, I suppose.
Business: Yes, Lord Cutler Beckett, I'm sure it is good business. *LOL* But wouldn't it be just as good business if you could have one product that served TWO control groups just as well as it served one? Wouldn't that imply MORE business?
I think you should know what you're selling. It'll make your writing tighter and better, make you more focused about what you're doing--but I think it's RIDICULOUS how Fantasy treats romance like some pox-riddled leper to their precious fantasy field.
Lord of the Rings could have used some sex.
Oooo! I want to wear my big black captain's coat and boots!
The thing about the shelvin'? Hell, I worked in bookstores. Don't really make a bunch of difference what the pubs say. We clerks decide in the end. Most books, ya get two...so it's hard ta split them.
I do get the problems with sex scenes and emotion. As I said, me erotic romance ain't romantic enough, me straight erotic ain't hot enough. I seem ta struggle wit' how much of what!
Speaking of SHELVING, I was in Blockbuster and you wouldn't believe some of the movies that were classified as comedy (but were not funny) and some things that were classifed as action/drama (but were actually comedy). I mean literally. I thought someone in Blockbuster must be a complete smartass or something.
and I've told folks I write romance, unpublished but seeking publication. Maybe it be a CA thing, I've not been dissed 'bout the declaration.
So, fantasy authors don't care for romance? Hmmm. Wonder what that is about...romance is bringing sex into the stories and fantasy folks can be real purist...that be me guess...
but they argue about so many things! I go ta the conventions, I know!
I can remember fighting with the management about how small the romance section was. Told them i could stroll through the stacks and find twice that many books that would fit into romance from other genres.
But I remember how Margaret Atwood fussed at "The Handmaids Tale" being considered scifi. Classification is so personal!
And I'm working on the genre stuff fer meself!
I'd like to define more of JE's niche on that whole adventure side, but I want to add a little more suspense and thrill to my unclassified genre. Because as much as I would like to write about Sadie getting freaky, she's going to take a few books to warm up. So how do you classify romance without the sex? Because there will be tension. Maybe some hot kissing. But penetration... no.
I don't know. I think fantasy READERSHIP doesn't care for romance, but I think that stems from a prejudice that romance is all sex all the time and it's usually of the rape variety. *LOL* Or the similtaneous orgasm variety. (I can't figure out what offends fantasy readers more: that women are getting raped or that women are having great sex.)
Man, I'm on a Fantasy-hating spree today. I must be having coffee-date flashbacks.
I'm just glad Sherrilyn Kenyon's books have broken down some barriers between fantasy/urban and romantic fiction. That you can have both-and, though I think she's strictly shelved in the romance section. Clearly the books are more about the romantic relationship than the fantasy aspect, but the fantasy aspect does carry over throughout the series, like it would in a fantasy genre. I think that's cool.
I also think it's funny that publishing wouldn't touch it forever because they thought the romantic readership wouldn't embrace both aspects. They were so wrong.
Ah, see, lots of literature is about sex. In fact most of literature is about sex in some form: either getting it or not getting it, et al. The romance section just has the most fun doing it. The literary section clearly feels guilty about it, so if anyone has fun during sex, they usually off them by getting them hit by a train or something.
Re: Marketing - Nope, not actually better for one to serve two because it means twice the promo budget. That or cutting the budget in half to handle the two and that just cuts everything and makes it worse than doing no promo at all.
Re: Fantasy - Had no idea they didn't like us. But then, I'm not a fan of fantasy. LOL! Though there be purist in every category, I'd think. *looks pointedly at Hellie* Need I bring up country music?
Re: Sex in books - Most books have sex or attraction or some kind of relationship in them. Heck, Lovely Bones has a love scene. No one would call that a Romance.
I have to say Terrio is right on this one...
Full disclosure...In my past life I worked in the marketing dept and as the publicist for a book publisher (not romance).
The one thing you have to be able to do with a book is define the "perfect" target market - and go guns blazing to that target. If you shoot around to lots of different targets, your book never catches on with any of them and you don't end up with a loyal fan base.
You have to be able to target one main group - AFTER it catches on with them you might be able to go from there. BUT, that would be guerilla marketing...i.e. no budget.
With the tiny amount of marketing dollars you get for a book, if any, you have to make the most of it - and that means focus on one core target market.
The promo budget. Well, you didn't mention that the first time. That makes sense. If they'd explain why they're being hardasses about it, I could deal with it.
I'd focus on the romance then. Romance sells more--though I think fantasy probably has the more loyal fan base.
Core target market. I like that term.
Does promotion really work though? Word of mouth seems to draw me to more books than any banner or ad in a magazine. Do the ads in magazines really work? Because it seems the ones who get the ads are like Janet Evanovich or Nora Roberts, neither of which are hardly unknowns, whose books weren't going to be bought anyway?
Welllll, I'm not sure if Fantasy doesn't like us. But I'd say on the whole they don't respect us. We're their cheap, tarty cousin who can't keep her legs closed.
Again, I'm having coffeedate flashbacks. I seriously need to let this go for the day.
Maybe I'll just talk about country music.
Sabrina - Are you going to Nationals? We could talk for HOURS! LOL! Gosh, I like you more each day. (In a totally plutonic way that is.)
Word of mouth is sort of an extension of PR. Just another form of it. For instance, the PR lady for Casablanca does a blog (she really did) talking up her authors. She convinced a couple readers to pick up something they wouldn't have before. They like the book and tell a friend. Word of mouth is on.
Something has to get the word going. That's where the promotion comes in.
I wish I was going to Nationals but alas, I am not.
I went to RT this year to take Judi McCoy's workshop and becuase I live in the Orlando area. It was fantastic! Highly recommended for newbies!
All the talk of Nationals does have me envious, but I just can't afford it this year since my DH is out of work. Bringing home the bacon is stressful! :)
Did I kill the conversation? It's very quiet in here!
Can't wait to hear how Dee goes about writing her menages and hot scenes!
Dee is still out lunching; Terri has gone to the Dentist; I pretty much decided after about 6 rants about fantasy books, I should probably give it a rest; and who knows where Sin, Marn, Hal, or Chance have gone? Santa's somewhere too, I'm sure.
"Welllll, I’m not sure if Fantasy doesn’t like us. But I’d say on the whole they don’t respect us. We’re their cheap, tarty cousin who can’t keep her legs closed."
Hel, I love you.
I be a big fantasy reader fer decades and decades. Hell, I was brought up on Lord of the Rings. I gots ta get Last Chance in on this discussion as she reads fantasy almost exclusively. She didn't get what I wer writing fer the longest time until she stumbled on a series that suddenly lit a light bulb over 'er head. Marketed as fantasy, she saw the romantic relationship in it and viola! By George, she got it!
I'm off ta gets her feedback... Oh, she likely be at lunch...
*LOL* I don't get it. How is the romantic undertones so hard to grasp? They're everywhere. LOVE IS EVERYWHERE.
Yes, have Last Chance weigh in. *LOL* Explain to me why my coffeedates go so horribly wrong...why can't fantasy readers and romance readers get along?
I be ruminatin' on Dee's advice ta pick a genre and stick wit' it, then make yer mark and takes on the rest... I think I could make that work fer me.
Me Caribbean series is a mutt, but I can present it as fantasy/paranormal. Isn't that where they (the great poobahs of the romance industy) have decreed fantasy lands? If'n it don't move, I use the rest a' me works ta carve a niche in paranormal then see 'bout slidin' the rest inta it.
Jane-o majored in marketing... I should see if'n she'd dive inta this pool. I gets the marketing dollars are limited stuff...honestly!
I were obviously busy writin' me posts! Wish ya could be at Nationals, Sabrina!
Terrio is at the dentist? Wasn't another a' our crew at the dentist recently? Too many frozen rum balls?
Hey, I been workin' on a Shamwow drink... Did Billy Mays start with the shamwow?
I'm thinkin' a hangover remedy... The Shamwowzer. It soaks up all the lingerin' effects a' too much rum...
That'd be me. I had a dental cleaning, then a filling. I'd been dodging bullets for 7 years on that front. So I did okay.
Shamwowzer is a better name than Hair of the Dog That Bit You--I mean, what is that about anyway?
I have no idea, Cap'n. I put out a call ta two fantasy readers I know ta chime in. Let's 'ope they heed me bulletins.
Ya gots inta fights wit' fantasy purists, eh? Someday, we meet in person and I wants ta hear it all.
Because, I...am not a purist. Of anything.
Wish I could remembers the name a' the series the opened Last Chances eyes... I met the author at RT and bought me sis one a' her books. Got it autographed...
I 'ates me middle-aged brain.
So, Dee be big on e-books. I wish I could afford one a' those e-readers right now. I'd load it up and...probably stop writin' a line fer weeks...so maybe it be a good thing I be poor right now.
I'm ba-a-ack! Good lunch in Chicago, but I wanted to be here the whole time. This is when we broke it to the in-laws that we are probably--not definitely, but probably--moving even farther into the frozen northlands. I cant believe this of a Southern girl.
Anyway, I'm trying to catch up on the posts.
Marjorie Liu, maybe? She's a crossover author.
Ah, but you don't need an e-reader to read Dee's book, Chance, you just need your computer. I am too poor for the glorious Kindle, but I downloaded Burning Bridges to my computer--and it reads perfectly.
Fantasy - I tried writing a fantasy once. The result was Your Desire, which turned out okay. I've always been scared of sci-fi, but I did try one (or futuristic, which to me is about the same thing, with The Elixir) combined with the dreaded menage. The results...not quite as good as Your Desire. One reviewer just called it confusing. (I could say something about reviewers here, but since I am one and because it would sound too subjective, I'll hold off.)
Did I learn my lesson with The Elixir in Tasty Treats, Volume 1? Noooo. I'm working on another futuristic now for another menage anthology. This one is western themed. And that brings me to menages.
Don't read too closely, Dee, we got all unfocused and I started flipping out about fantasy novels again...it was ugly. I'm glad you've returned to restore order really.
Nah. Some C name... Blast. I'm gonna go search me old e-mails and see if'n I can find it!
Restored order! *snort* I didn't drink anything alcoholic over lunch, I saved myself for more rum, so pass it over, please.
You don't need a Kindle to read e-books. If you don't want it on your laptop or desktop, try an eBookwise reader. They run about $130 or so. It's what I have and I love it.
I do apologize for being gone. I told Jack that I told Hellion I was off work on Tuesdays and so would be available, and he said (the brat) well, he thought I was off on Tuesday's, too. Husbands trump interviews/chats, unfortunately.
Don't worry, Dee, as the saying goes, no one has ever erected a statue to a critic. We understand what you're not saying. *LOL*
Well, Dee, of course, I didn't expect you to learn any lessons! *LOL* Of course you signed up for another menage anthology. *LOL* That's what you get for being so good at it.
So spill: tell us what you learned about menages...and about men in the room, et al....you know that comment Marn made about a guy not typically letting another guy all over his woman.
Lunch in Chicago with a cute hubby always trumps playing in the virtual world! No problems.
Dee, I knows I don't need an e-reader. I jus' like ta traipse about Santa Cruz wit' what ever I be readin' and me laptop, though small...ain't the best lunch companion...
Yes, here...'ave another Glittery Hooha. Sin didn't manage the lock so's I still have me stash of extra strenght Hoo. (It ain't a lock a key fits, ya sneaky ninja pirate!)
And gander at us 'bout menage...-es. Menagesessess? Menageses? ('Nother one a those words it be hard ta plurate!)
MM, you best be careful lest I get out the black magic and tear the hell out of the stash cabinet.
Sin, me magic trumps yers anyday. Old age and treachery, child...
What have I learned? Well, I'll tell you about my mistake first, and then talk about not formulas, but rules.
In The Elixir, I wrote about a woman who was run down. When she comes to, she's in the future by about 800 years. Women are scarce, so when she's found by two men, they spirit her away. They give her an elixir that has the effect of an aphrodisiac on her. The men in this case have no jealousy and are used to sharing. That's how I got around the whole "She's mine!" thing. But, the reader knows all along that she's dreaming or something. When she wakes, she connects with the guy she's been thinking about the whole time she was out. So, plenty of threesome sex, HEA for the heroine. Works fine, right?
Not so. The publisher has specific guidelines for menages (which I didn't know).
1. The heroine CANNOT be the kind of woman who usually has threesomes
2. The three must like--preferably get to love--each other
3. The three must end up together, or there must be an expectation that they will (this is the menage HEA)
4. No dreams--must be wide-awake acceptance of the threesome
I found all this out about a week and a half before the book was due to be released when I received my edits. I made the changes I could to fit the guidelines, but all of this was a surprise.
I was told this is what women expect and is part of the female fantasy. Is this true?
Lunch in Chicago with a cute hubby? That would be great--you got one I can borrow? :) I do love my Jack.
"I was told this is what women expect and is part of the female fantasy. Is this true?"
Uh, not what this woman expects... The woman must be the sort who doesn't usually experience threesomes? Uh, why? Hmmm. To make the whole thing new to her, hence the reader can visualize herself in the situation?
No dreams...wide awake... I don't know...that's a toughie. I've been squashed in a contest because the 'hero' used pheramones to lessen resistence... not that the couple in question weren't inclined toward experiementation. It just made things easier... I guess it's all in how it's written???
I'm impressed you were able to change so much to fit the edits!
I learned a lot about writing menage from my mistake with The Elixir.
For one thing, I believe a woman in this situation HAS to be strong willed and confident. It's tricky handling all the egos that come along with a menage.
I think it's vital to have men who, if they don't trust each other, have to respect each other from the get-go. And, in the world of romance, they have to be more concerned with the woman's satisfaction then their own. (This is where the fiction part comes in. :))
Last, I do believe writing about men willing to share one women is easier than we might think because guys are so visual. If they see one man with a woman, I do believe it's a turn on, and that visual aspect can be used.
The hardest thing for me in all this is having the three end up together at the end. To me, that's more fantasy than seeing unicorns, lol.
Chance, I think you're right about why it has to be a woman not inclined toward threesomes.
The object is for the reader to say to herself, "I'd never willingly sleep with two guys, but if I found myself in this same situation maybe I would..."
Hee, hee. In this world, I suppose tis more fantasy than unicorns. I live in California and find the idea less strange than perhaps others. I have a source who lives a polyamory life and keep threatenin' ta interview 'er in depth. I'd like ta write the definitive polyamory romance...
What da ya think a' havin' the two men as attracted ta each other as they be ta the woman? I read several a' those...
Chance, that's very welcome in the menages for Siren. I've read several M/M romances and don't find them objectionable at all. If the men can make the woman happy and get with each other, too, more power to 'em.
Emma Holly's Menage is exactly that, and it was very well done.
Personally, writing M/M is outside my comfort zone right now. I think I'd rather read it than write it.
Before I forget it, Sin, you don't look like a Sunday school teacher, you look like a little angelic school girl. NO one would suspect the nefarious characters and sexy plots you have in your head!
Hellion, you do NOT look anything like Harry Potter (and thank you for saying I don't, either). You're gorgeous, woman, and sweet and fun. And THANKS for saying you liked Burning Bridges!!!
I do love Emma Holly...sigh. And thought Menage was great...
Sin don't look like a Sunday school teacher? Ha! I knew the catholic school uniform were more 'er look!
Really, really short so the nuns would want ta smack her knuckles wit' a ruler...
A magical ruler that will keep the sneaky ninja from tryin' ta break inta me secret stash!
Chance, I have another menage started featuring a nun... Let's say she finds heaven on Earth. I hope.
Dee, you're so sweet. I think it's because of the pigtails. People tend to forget I'm dangerous when I look sweet and innocent. LOL
*thinking* MM, dearest, I'm going to get into that stash. You're not going to stop me.
Dee, you always come up with the best situations.
Damn! Where did I put my shamwow? I made a mess a' the table...and me keyboard! Good thing I don't drinks any a' those too sweet things...
A nun...heavens!
Watch me, Sin. My magical kung fu is great...
*grin*
A nun, huh? Are the men fathers because you could really run with that M/M thing too.
Those are a LOT of rules. *LOL* And I agree that everything ending where the threesome continues with a happy relationship is definitely seeing unicorns. (Although...I wonder about Harry, Ron and Hermione? Hmmm. No, that's wrong. It's Harry & Ginny all the way.)
How in the world would you make a threesome look like a relationship that would work? I can't get along with one guy long enough to be a single relationship, let alone with two.
No, I'm clearly too jealous and unevolved and unsophisticated to have a threesome sort of relationship. Of course, I'm making the assumption of M/F/M--which the typical fantasy more than the other, I think--but I'm not interested in being in a relationship with a woman either. I know how crazy women are.
Yes, most women are crazy. Though, some like to pretend they are not. But as my BFF tells me, people are not meant to be monogomous and that threesomes should be the way of life.
*bigger grin
I think yer lookin' beyond the sex, Hel. And ya may be right. But one alpha male, one alpha female, one gamma male... Ever read Emma Holly?
Cat Grant also has a workin' menage in her series.
Remembers, we be writin' fiction here!
I've written the two men, one woman thing and made it work. But that were fiction...
Chance, LOL!
And Hellion, what if the fathers were two brothers? That could be complicated menage.
GOD! I agree with you on the two women part. I'd far rather deal with two men than two women!
But you know, y'all, my nun story as it stands right now won't be accepted at Siren-BookStrand (or maybe anywhere else) because in the story as it is, the heroine only ends up with one man--and it's not the ones she has the menage with.
I mean, she doesn't stay a NUN in the version as it is now, lol. Wouldn't those confessions be interesting??
Interjection here... Last Chance's take on the fantasy/romance thing...
"C L Wilson is the author I "accidently" read; and to be honest, as a fantasy lover, I had deep shame over reading and loving this book - LOL !!!! And then it turned out to be a series - and I'm impatiently waiting for the advance copy of book 4 to arrive in my mailbox from Amazon any day now. And it opened me up to understanding what 2nd Chance is involved in, and that's always a good thing - understanding.
As I have officially become somebody who crosses the boundaries in what I read now, it's hard to say. Lots of the differences between Fantasy and Romance are buried in old stereotypes about both. I remember when there was no "fantasy" at all - it was all clasified as Science Fiction; whether it involved space and robots, or dragons, it was all Sci-Fi. And noses turned up at it. Tolkein could never fit into Sci-Fi, and thus "Fantasy" was born. I digress.
Bottom line; fans of Fantasy and Romance can't agree because they don't want to. Everybody wants to have a "what I like is better than what you like" moment. For readers, it's arguments over genre.
I will say that my thoughts about Romance were tied very much to my own experiences with men, and believing it was all garbage, as no matter what the woman looked like, sounded like, etc.; she always got the hottie, the sex was hot, and HEA is not in my lexicon. They all seemed like books written as an excuse to write about sex without anything else really to the story. Where with fantasy, the sex stuff just sort of happens, as sex happens in "real" peoples lives, amongst all the other "stuff" going on. Fantasy books were deep and involved and so complicated - Romance was not. And Romance always seemed to me to be horribly formulamatic (is that a word?!?!). Does anybody remember Romancing the Stone? She was the stereotypical romance writer; same story every book, just a different setting.
(OK, Maureen - can't figure out to make an Angelique reference in this email!!!)
I finally found out that the two genres have become so intertwined with the breaking down of so many of societies barriers that sometimes I have to really think about it to know what it is that I'm reading - fantasy or romance. And Hellion took some of my words right out of my mouth as far as referencing Kenyon. I'm reading her latest book right now; another one of those bought it at the grocery store things. I have her whole reading list and plan on reading them all eventually. As a Fantasy lover and newly hatched Romance reader, she is the best yet of combining them both.
I think the publishers are miles behind the readers by still forcing everything into categories. But that is what y'all have to work with. Until the gatekeepers change their ways, you have to pick a label and roll with it. Just get published and be successful, and then you get to indulge some of your artistic will. That's the conclusion I've drawn from riding along on the back of The Revenge.
(I see myself hanging off the back from a rope in a black ninja outfit, just riding along with everybody and listening)."
I got that Emma Holly book you two are talking about, and it didn't float my boat. But as Dee pointed out, I am Amish and as Terri says, I'm purist.
Personally I think it's because I'm probably more into the bondage fantasy of erotica story than the threesome. Threesomes, there is one too many people to keep entertained. I don't like anyone feeling left out or not as well liked as the others. Especially ME.
Right now, an erotic fantasy would be a guy who came home every night, made love to me like a tiger, and then did the dishes after while asking me how my day went. THAT is the sort of story I enjoy.
Yeah, Chance, I think that's the way of it. Pick a genre, become successful and then see if you can branch out.
Lord, as a former Catholic, I'm lookin' fer lightning bolts...
She a nun in the beginnin'? So, she ends up lovin' three men?
Well, love is limitless, right? In a perfect world, polyamory would simply be the norm...
Sorry, Chance, we'll have to disagree here, but for me the best fiction is the kind where I could believe it's true or could be true.
Strangely I think Kenyon's world COULD BE TRUE.
A world where two men and a woman can have a healthy relationship and all get along--nope. But it's not my gig either.
As I said, it's because I'm unevolved and immature. I still have the fantasy of being the be-all and end-all of some alpha man. I have no interest in engaging in a fantasy where the character I get to relate with would be second fiddle.
Hel - No one writes super-dooper-uber erotic fantasy like that! You could... ;)
M/M of BROTHERS! Dee, you really do want to go to hell, don't you? *LOL* Woooow. If anyone could pull that off with happy endings of more than one variety, it would be you, Dee. *LOL*
Trust me, I think we're safe. I do believe God has more important sins to deal with. I'm a former Catholic, too. (Is there really such a thing??)
I forgot to say this book takes place in 1954 or thereabouts, when nuns were taken more seriously than now.
Aye, Dee...I thinks that is the ticket. I'm still pushin' me Caribbean mutt, and will keep pushin' it, but want ta work on nailin' a genre with me other MSssss.
Last Chance said it, too. Be a success than let yer artist indulge in mixin' it up...
She's read one a' me other works... Can't remember how she classified it... Gots ta ask 'er...
LOL Hellion!
I also seem to have a problem getting into the threesome thing...not becuase I'm bothered by the moral issue or anything...I just really don't have it in me to compete with someone else in during sex! LOL - that makes it hard to get into the story and not feel bad for one of the characters.
Hellion, you wear your Amishness well.
I picked up Menage on recommendation of Jasmoine Haynes and Leigh Wyndfield, and did enjoy it. I have to admit, though, my idea of a perfect romance is more along the lines of yours. Oh yeah, and he'd have to rub my feet.
Cap'n, ya ain't unevolved. Yer just opinionated and that be fine... I don't know if I could make it work in the 'real' world, but I like ta think...in an alternate univers, all things be possible.
Like me sis don't believe in HEA... Yer life experience shapes yer desires and beliefs. Trust me, sis don't know where the hell I found some a' the things I roll wit'... Same parents, only three years apart...but miles a differences wit' beliefs.
I like ta think anything be possible.
I imagine Kenyon is the best at blending both because she was a sci-fi/fantasy writer FIRST, but she happened to be a fan of reading romance--and she fought hard to combine the two.
However, she did it by publishing historicals firsts and getting her name established one way and then finally the editors were willing to take a chance on the fantasy/romance. And it completely snowballed. I wonder sometimes if Kenyon ever goes, "Nah-nah, told you so" or anything.
We needs ta build the perfect man...by act, not by bod.
Cooks, does dishes, makes love like a tiger, asks about our day, rubs feet... What else?
It's not unevolved not to care for M/F/M, or any other alphabet gobbledegook. It's being an individual about your likes and dislikes.
Veeva la deeferance--or whatever they say in the French Caribbean. More rum, please?
Is it heresy to admit I've never read a Kenyon?
*hanging head*
That's what the problem is. Sabrina solved it for me! It's the COMPETITION thing...and I loathe competition. I usually weigh my odds and try for things that I'll likely achieve. It's rare I try for things way outside the realm of possibility of having.
*snatching rum bottle away from Sin
Here ya go! Let me get ya an extra big tankard as we be divin' inta deep territory now.
(shut up, Sabrina, don't go there! We be enough off topic as is!)
Nay, it ain't unevolveded atall! It be preference, period.
Don't feel bad, Dee. I ain't read her either. I 'ave a deep aversion ta long series wit' books thicker as they go along.
So, 'course, that be what I wrote.
Irony, thy name be Chance!
You're having a THREESOME in 1954? *LOL* You have balls, woman! You so rock!
I do wear my Amishness well. Actually I'm reading a book right now, Plain Truth, by Jodi Picoult, and I swear to God some of the Amish things that go on in this book I'm like, "Yep, totally think that way." and "Totally get that."
I mean, it wasn't for the hard work and lack of air conditioning, I could probably be Amish. Oh, and I'm pretty sure they don't write books either, so that's another thing I couldn't live without, but otherwise...Amish...
Cap'n...we could stitch a big scarlet "A" on yer tunic... Ya could explain it ain't what would be thought 'a...
Or am I referencin' somethin' too literary fer others ta get?
*ducking now
Hellion, I think you're missing the point, sweetie. In a menage, BOTH men want you, desire you, want to whatever it takes (even sharing) to make you happy and satisfied to the point of passing out. And they can both be Alpha (though often one is more submissive if they're with each other, too).
There is no being with the weaker or secondary guy. And there is no competition--they both want only to please YOU!
I find that to be a worthwhile fantasy. It's like Paint Your Wagon except both men are ome at the same time, get it?
OMG! Yer right! Clint were in a menage. In a musical!
**You’re having a THREESOME in 1954?**
I needed conflixt, lol
Clint were! And you know what was braver than having a menage? He sang!!
Ohhhh, Chance, great idea!!
That's like, Jack was recently looking into driving an escort car for heavy/wide loads. He told someone at a job recruitment service that he was checking into becoming an escort. There was a moment of silence at the other end of the line, lol.
Hel. Last Chance thinks ya might be her long lost twin...
She also said somethin' be sad 'bout findin' it easier ta believe in dragons than in HEA.
;(
But she do like hangin' round the edge a' the Revenge.
Escort! *snicker... Anyone catch that new HBO show called "Hung"? I don't get HBO so I don't know much 'bout it...other than the obvious...
*hangs head* I thought for once I was staying on topic! LOL!
Just explaining why its hard for me to get into M/F/M storylines - all I can think about is competition - at some point someone would have to want more attention right? Ok - so I'll stop thinking about the real world and let fantasy take over...
Sabrina... Yeah, the competition thing. I guess, fer me...competition jus' ain't a factor. I suck at it, so I avoid it... A menage would wit' me at the center would 'ave ta be without it.
See!? I know how ta fantasize!
The few menage stories I've penned...the conflict be more on the outside. Which is a problem... I need ta think 'bout this... Competition would be a great inner conflict...or there always be the fear a' being worthy. I jus' finished a menage called Dinah's Dark Desire (think that were the title) where it ain't competition that provides inner conflict, but insecurity...
*raises eyebrow at Dee* I'm sorry, the NUN HAVING A THREESOME wasn't enough conflict for you? *LOL*
I think the point of romance books and happily ever afters is that once you read enough of them, you realize you have to make your own happily ever afters.
I think more modern romances show that aspect more and more. It's less about "the one guy who's the soulmate you rescues you" and more "I could manage just fine without you, but I find being with you makes me more content and I take more pleasure in everyday things". Very subtle difference, but it's there, I think.
"Hellion, I think you’re missing the point, sweetie. In a menage, BOTH men want you, desire you, want to whatever it takes (even sharing) to make you happy and satisfied to the point of passing out. And they can both be Alpha (though often one is more submissive if they’re with each other, too)."--
You see this is so far outside the realm of my understanding, that it almost sounds like complete gibberish. *LOL* I can barely find one man to attempt to do this at one time, so the prospect of two is as likely to me as meeting Elvis. And once you've dated the gay guy, you NEVER think M/F/M fantasy is cool. You just don't.
Alright pirates - I'm out for today. Gotta go brave the hour drive home in the downpour that's been off and on all day.
Have fun!
Last Chance and I might be fiddles from the same tree. *LOL* I think typically the person who doesn't believe in HEA are the ones who've been burned by the "second fiddle/settled for" dynamic.
Love in romance books only seems uncomplicated because it comes to a sort of happy resolution at the end of the book. But it's still love--and love is rearely if ever uncomplicated. They just know where to end it on a high note.
Hel wins.
And yeah, contemporary romance is more believable because the heroine can move on alone. It's a choice. Historicals? Not so much...
Likely why I enjoy the writing of Eloisa, but the HEA leave me feeling almost icky. I want them to be able to go on without the dukes. Yeah, right.
2nd, do you really want to stir me up about historicals and plausibility again?
Bye Sabrina, see you later. Stay strong, us non-threesome-peeps got stay united!
*poke poke
Uh, no?
I was jus' speakin' 'bout me feelin's 'bout the books, not the real way it were. Why I don't read historicals fer the most part... Really! Not because they ain't accurate, jus' because I want more fer characters I've come ta care fer...
Make sense?
Did Last Chance make sense as ta why fantasy and romance 'ave a hard time mixin'?
I think it's because they 'ave both been the omegas so long...no one takes the bottom spot in this fragile marriage.
Now, now, HEAs in some form are present in every commercial fiction. Not just romances. You get a HEA when the killer is caught; when the wicked are punished; when the good are rewarded.
LOTR: Frodo drops that ring into the lake and saves the world--and then he gets to sail off with Gandalf, et al (assuming the book is like the movie) to the otherlands. Commercial ending. Good triumphed evil.
For love to triumph apathy, you have to have an ending where it shows the couple together and happy. It's not different or any less realistic than having the killer caught and punished. It's what we desire as readers.
No one WANTS to take the bottom spot...pardon me.
And the fans, a' each genre, want this couple ta break up and not be married at all!
I think LC has a very valid point that everyone wants to be right and that's why the two factions cannot get along because even though they're BOTH right, there is always competition to find out who is MORE right. *LOL*
Sabrina, sweet thing, I didn't mean to stomp on you!!! I wasn't, really, truly!
I guess for me, when I read I suspend reality. That counts for whether the book's about good witches, dragons, nuns in bed with two guys or a contemporary secretary whose boss falls in love with her. It's all outside the realm of a poor woman in Illinois with too many bills and too little money. If the story's good, I'm willing to read it and submerge all doubt.
To tell the truth, a lot of the time I don't even want a book to be believable.
*raising hand*
I want the bottom...in one of my books, anyway.
Right.
And yeah, Dee...it isn't about believability for me. I'm a sucker, I can believe anything...
Not terribly realistic, but I fight wit' definitions a' reality ta begin wit'!
Hard ta argue with bills, etc...
Here I go, runnin' off ta buy a lottery ticket! Talk 'bout fantasy!
Ladies, Jack is offering to make dinner for me--tonight that means he's in the kitchen right now spreading peanut butter on a slice of whole wheat bread. Yum!
So, I have to go. I'll check back after dinner? I've loved chatting with y'all today!!
Omega? You mean bottoms? Yeah, fantasy and romance have both been losers in the literature roulette. Both are taken as seriously as Captain Obvious; and so they are left with being serious about themselves to the point they are nearly brittle with the effort.
They're like the loser kids in high school who suddenly find some popularity in their adult years, but rather than be gracious about it, they run the other loser down. Basically doing the very thing that was done to then before they were popular, in a bid to be taken more seriously and be thought more respectably.
*LOL* Does being on the bottom mean you don't have to do as much work, because I'm for that?
Oh, man! I forgot to get a lottery ticket! And it's up to $93M, too.
Shoot! I wonder if Jack would suspend PB spreading to run out and buy a ticket...?
I agree, Dee. I read to take me away from reality for just a little while. No one wants to read a book about a girl who works in a dingy little office going over budget numbers and expense figures and daily reports who goes home at night to the same routine. That's boring. Dull. Yes, I'm dull.
But, if the story is about a girl who works in the office by day, lusts for her boss, goes out at night and parties and has fun and lives this whole underground life outside of the office and the boss who doesn't give her the time of day during the day finds out about her wicked nature and takes advantage of it- then people will read with great interest.
And that in no means is my real life. LMFAO And I do not want my boss to lust over me. That's gross. Unless its Mattycakes.
Yup, that's how I see it Hellion. Geeks at war with geeks. None of the literari take us seriously, either genre... So why we can't unite and take on the rest of the snobs is beyond me!
Ah! But who's on top? No one wants to be the vice president...
That's it exactly, Sin. And if I can have two luscious guys lusting after me, who are willing to shake my bed like Jello at a church picnic (there's a religion reference again--maybe I really am going to hell!), then I'm willing to entertain the thought even knowing it will never in a milion, zillion years happen.
And if you're dull, woman, you're in great company. When I first started interviews and chats as an ER writer people always said, "Wow! The research must be interesting!" Uh, no, I clean the toilets just like everyone else.
In a real top/bottom relationship...it's a well known fact that the bottom really has all the power. Because the bottom can say 'no' and it all stops...
Hey! Dee, if you win...I reminded you to buy it! Share!
Absolutely!! Free rum and a healthy stipend to all Pirates!
Thansk for hosting me today, y'all!
Well, I'm off to spread some p-butter on some bread also. But fer me, it's a late lunch. Be back later ta see if any fightin' remains.
And Sin? The riddle a' me secret stash goes wit' me!
You ladies make it very hard to catch up. Just when I'd get through the comments, I'd refresh and there's MORE. LOL!
At this point, I have no idea where to chime in. Lessee, never read M/M and no desire too. BUT, I think that's because my brother is gay and I don't want to read anything that could resemble his sex life. Squicks me out. Love him, happy for him, don't want to read it.
Threesomes I think I could read. Not worried about believability if I know it's not supposed to be. If an author portrays her work as accurate to it's time, then the characters better act accurate to the time. If an authors portrays her work as pure fantasy, I can deal.
Not sure about the real life threesome thing. I think that rarely ends well. However, I believe a three person relationship could work, but the people would have to be incredibly well-adjusted.
The nun thing is cracking me up. Former Catholic here too and no I'm not sure there is such a thing. It's not like I became something else, so I'm sort of still Catholic. Just don't agree with 90% of the crap they dish out. LOL! No offense *makes the sign of the cross*
God and I are good, that's all that really matter, right?
What about the bottom backwards? Just askin'...
I love what Last Chance said, though I was getting a bit riled up in the middle there. So glad she brought that around to something positive about Romance. LOL! And I kind of agree with her on the no HEAs. Except, I believe in RL there are HEAs, just not for me. I know lots of people who have them, Santa and her hubby being one example. But can't stretch the imagination far enough to imagine I could find one.
*evil cackle*
I don't need a riddle.
*wicked grin* Have a good night MM.
Dee!! As always, its a pleasure to have you aboard!
And I had a peanut butter sandwich for lunch. It was perfect.
Yer so outta yer league, ya don't even know it, Sin.
;)
Yeah, Terrio...we be breaking records wit' comments taday...
Sis isn't one fer bandyin' words, that's fer sure. I think she pretty much spoke how too many view romance, but I also think...like 'er, that these views are fallin' ta the wayside. As more and more authors admit how much romance is part a' their books. And that they proudly sell in that aisle, call themselves romance authors...go ta conventions. And whether they did so 'cause a the cash in the beginnin' or not...don't matter at this point.
We be winnin' the readers, and that is the bottom line.
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