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The Usefulness of What Is Not
Hi, I’m Hells, and I over write. Fortunately I’m pretty sure I’m not alone here. I think there are a lot of over writers out there. We fear empty space. We fear not explaining our characters enough, making them lovable enough to our readers. We all want our characters to be loved as much as we love them; and sometimes I think we over compensate trying to “sell” them to the reader by over writing. It’s not the worse writing sin in The 10 Commandments, but it probably ranks as one of the top ten. (The Golden Rule Commandment being, of course, don’t bore your reader.)
Now we all have our own specialties in writing. I know when you write, you have strengths. Maybe you’re great with description or setting (like Teresa Medeiros) or sexual tension (like Lisa Kleypas) or bad sex that leads to great sex (like Eloisa James—doesn’t that fried chicken scene in Your Wicked Ways crack you up?) Me, I like dialogue. Banter and wit is my idea of foreplay in real life as well as the written word. If I’m writing a scene and completely blowing character, plot, and description and setting, I try to get a conversation going just so I rebuild my writer’s self-esteem before it shreds entirely.
However, dialogue is not exactly the meat and potatoes of the story. It’s more like the frosting. It’s fun; it’s flavorful; and for many, it’s their favorite part, but it’s probably the nutritional equivalent of ho-ho’s. Possibly it’s most important value is how it paces a novel. Dialogue is quick and feels like action even when the characters are sitting in a coffee shop. Because talking is an action; and action is good.
However, consider the other part of dialogue: what isn’t said.
We put thirty spokes together and call it a wheel;
But it is on the space where there is nothing that the usefulness of the wheel depends.
We turn clay to make a vessel;
But it is on the space where there is nothing that the usefulness of the vessel depends.
We pierce doors and windows to make a house;
And it is on these spaces where there is nothing that the usefulness of the house depends.
Therefore just as we take advantage of what is, we should recognize the usefulness of what is not.
--Tao Te Ching, Chap 11, tr. Waley.
So if witty banter is not your forte, remember that’s not necessarily the important part of dialogue. Think about every Black Moment you’ve ever read. It’s all the things your hero didn’t tell the heroine until it was too late that is revealed in the Black Moment. Like he loved her. Or oops, it was her he wanted to marry all along, not that hussy he’d been engaged to for the last 300 pages. Or he was a jerk, but he didn’t know how to apologize for it because who is good at apologizing? No one, exactly. We hold our cards to our chest just as closely as we play them. It’s human nature not to reveal too much because, frankly, there are things we just won’t even admit to ourselves. That empty dialogue reveals just as much character as anything spoken aloud.
What about you? Do you think dialogue is a meat-and-potatoes sort of aspect of writing, or do you too think it’s more frosting? Who are your go-to authors for the best banter and dialogue? Does anyone else watch TV shows for dialogue tips? (I get some of my best dialogue and “plotting” (braiding) tips from watching re-runs of Friends.) If so, which shows do you enjoy watching for this?
Books by the Crew
55 comments:
I love it when the dialogue flows, whether I'm writing or reading. It's the internal dialogues that provide the most interesting part of a story to me...what isn't said, what isn't acknowledged. Until it explodes, into glittery fireworks or The Fall of the House of Usher. Hopefully both at some point in the story!
I love great televison dialogue. Buffy was supreme. NCIS is great for it. Bones is delicious, The Closer's detectives are sweet! Burn Notice always draws me in... Most of what I watch, I watch for the character interplay, the dialogue is why I'm there!
I like the quote from Tao Te Ching!
It is slightly misleading though because if you look at what is there in microscopic detail, that all starts to vanish as well. You get down to atoms but they are like the solar system with vast space between the electrons and nucleus. If you magnify far enough it all becomes wisps of 'string' floating in space. We are all basically nothing but a bag of wind (or rather energy)!
Fortunately, even a wind bag can spout sense at times, but a book needs more than witty banter. For me It is a clever funny plot that wins the biscuit. Witty banter turns it into a chocolate biscuit and sexual tension adds that vital 'je ne sais qoi' that I haven't quite figured.
All three ingredients together lead to one hell of a read and Jennifer Crusie does a pretty good job.
Thanks Hellion...your the perfect breakfast partener. :D
It is not frosting. It's an important element to a story (one of the important elements). How can you have an engaging story without it? It's like the water to the fish. The grass to the sheep.
I think you get the picture :)
Two Dialogue driven books that I love: Miranda Cheever Julia Quinn, And Then He Kissed Her Laura Lee Guhrke (probably spelt that wrong) but those are examples where dialogue is what propels the plot forward.
I love dialogue. It's my favorite thing to write. But then, I love to talk so that makes perfect sense. But I totally agree, it's what isn't said that often makes the difference. I can't count how many times I've been reading a book and wanted to yell out, "Just tell her!!!"
But telling takes trust and that's one of the hardest things to do in real life, so it makes sense it's the hardest to write in a love story. To create trust between two characters. For me, that trust comes from what they experience together, not so much what they say.
I wish I wasn't running out the door in five minutes! UGH I love this blog.
I also am a huge fan of dialogue. I love witty banter, double entendres, and the unspoken in a conversation. I think the master at fun, witty dialogue is SEP. She gets it spot on for me all the time. Some of the things her heroes say I have heard before coming out of the guys I've hung around. She's very good.
Friends, Mad About You and The West Wing are the shows that come to mind with awesome dialogue. I also haven't turned a TV on in several years, so what do I know! LOL
ITA with Irish. SEP creates the most realistic men I've ever read. Nora is the only one that comes close IMO. And I love Bones. The dynamic between Booth and Brennon is so well played. But the best part is that the dialogue is intelligent. That's one of the reasons I loved Gilmore Girls. That show had superb dialogue.
2nd: internal dialogue is one of my favorites too, because only I and the character having it knows what's going on. It's like being in on a secret. *LOL* But since it's not spoken aloud--and no one else knows, for me, it falls into the "what is not" category. If only the heroine would confide her neurotic little fears, it wouldn't escalate out of control...and she wouldn't dump the confused hero for no reason. Well, no real reason.
Q, I was worried there for a second you might be calling me a bag of wind. I mean, it's been suggested once or twice, but not from one of my harem. *grins*
I need to read some more Tao Te Ching. I got into a philosophical debate with a graduate student (which I soon found I was practically ill-equipped to win) and the Tao Te Ching was brought up. I don't have a lot of experience with "virtue" texts outside of the Bible. (I had a Christianity class that as very entertaining and enlightening; and I've studied brief pieces of the Quran & Bavaghad Gita for literature classes. Had some history classes that touched on other religions...but don't remember hearing about the Tao Te Ching. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure my 10 closest friends probably haven't really heard of it either...)
I'm not sure I'm the "perfect" breakfast partner. I mean, I can make a decent scone and a fried egg--but I have no idea how to make most British breakfast items. (Don't you guys eat steweed tomatoes on toast?)
Tiff: *LOL* I love the grass to sheep analogy! *LOL* I admit, it's definitely one of my favorite things to read in a book. I mean, I can list books where the plot was riveting but the dialogue was dull, so I didn't care much for the book.
I've noticed that all the women responded they LOVE dialogue and listed several shows/books that have it--and Q, our guy, says he prefers the cleverly crafted plot. Hmmm. I wonder if that's telling. Proof that women love to talk--and words; and men like action??
I agree: Julia Quinn's & Laura Lee Guhrke's dialogue does propell the plot forward...they're great at dialogue. I also love Sherrilyn Kenyon/Kinley MacGregor's dialogue.
Terri, dialogue is one of my favorite things to write...and if it's not dialogue-dialogue, it's the ironic internal dialogue that usually opens or cliffhangs a chapter. *LOL*
Trust? What is that?
Irish, don't worry, most of my favorite dialogue comes from shows that are now in re-runs only. *LOL* Friends was probably the best--but Mad About You was great too. And the droll sarcasm of The West Wing was hilarious. (I'm sure it had good serious dialogue too, but it's the sarcastic stuff I live for.) I love That 70s Show...those kids are a riot.
I love SEP's older stuff (before every book was about a football player)--and she does it all great. Characterization, plot, dialogue, emotional intensity, setting. Great pick!
Okay, I have to make folders before the people around me stroke out--or I do...so I'll check in with comments this afternoon.
Terri: I *LOVE* Gilmore Girls! Luke and Lorelei! *swoons* Okay, I just love Luke.
Irish, I miss West Wing. I haven't watched a weekly TV show since it went off the air. The dialogue from the Sorkin shows is especially memorable.
If my characters are talking to me, I like writing dialogue. If I have to put the words in their mouths, I'm lousy at it, so, of course, I hate writing it. I'm much better at the introspective scenes.
Julia Quinn's dialogue is terrific. I agree with the choice of SEP. I think Nora does the best guy talk, both when male characters are talking to each other and in love scenes. Julie James's Just the Sexiest Man Alive has wonderful dialogue.
I love this post. I think as a writer, it's hard to not get overinvolved in what's going on on the page. I mean, sometimes when I'm writing, I tell the story like a spastic teenager:
"And then, he told her that he didn't want to see her again! Can you believe it? I mean, he knows she's the best thing that's ever happened to him. You know, he has some committment issues, from his mom. She was something..."
When I should tell it more like a doctor in a clinic:
"He knew he was an ass, but he left her anyway."
It's tough though to disassociate myself. I end up going back through and deleting extraneous stuff constantly.
Stewed tomatoes are awesome, but on toast?
Oh, and I just started watching Bones and I LOVE it! There was a whole scene on one rerun where I was like, that's awesome. She promised a little foster kid that if he told the truth about what happened to another kid that she'd make sure he stayed with his brother, saying that Booth would make it happen.
And Booth got annoyed that she was overstepping her bounds but in the end he made it happen and he asked her how she knew he would do that.
And she said that he wouldn't make a liar out of her. And that he wants to go to heaven.
So he says, "you don't believe in heaven."
And she said, "No. But you do"
That's fantastic characterization.
I'm done now....
Marn - Didn't you love that episode?! I only got into Bones a season ago so I love watching the re-runs every night. I saw some from the first season and it's funny how she's sort of testing Zak. And it's fun to see how he and Hodgins got to be best friends.
I loved the one where some gangster dude threatened Bones so Booth nearly beat the crap out of him. He kept telling the guy, "That's my partner," but the way he says "partner", you just know there's more to it.
*sigh* I heart Bones.
I have to agree. The faith based arguments that Bones and Booth get into are perfect. The science verses God stuff. She has such faith...in Booth! Letting him throw knives at her while they are in the circus...
Hel - Yeah, you're right. The internal dialogue isn't really there. Yet, it is... It's a sweet paradox.
I'm reading a book my Merrill Markoe right now. She can really do dialogue. Especially when the dogs are chatting. ;) She really nails doggie dialogue.
I have to admit, I'm very impressed at how so many of you actually realize and make note that you are reading good dialogue. I swear, I get into a book, I finish the book. I feel good about it...but can't say what it was generally that caught me. I can tell when a book stinks at something! Harder to really take note of what sparkles. For me.
Could be the mush my brain is turning into... Hormones are hell.
Maybe I need to keep a small notebook handy...
Chance - I've never taken notes while reading, but you're right about finding the stuff that seems wrong being more common. But there are authors (SEP, Eloisa) where I'll be reading and actually admire something really cool. With EJ it's more a turn of phrase. The dialogue in her latest series, mostly between Jemma & Villers, is unbeatable. Smart, witty, funny, hot. Such talent.
With SEP, I rarely get pulled out of the story enough to analyze anything. I so want to be here when I grow up. *sigh*
I might be starting to hate the series the longer it goes on, but I have to admit that I love the bantering between brothers in JRWard's Black Dagger Brotherhood series. In the earlier books, the dialogue seemed very real to me; lately it's just become very stale and stilted. And I would know considering my own dialogue parts suck donkey balls.
I don't watch enough TV to know good TV dialogue. :(
Sorry, Hells, I've been trying to comment all day. It's like the snow and ice brings out the crazy in people.
Sin, I agree about the Black Dagger Brotherhood. I thought Phury's book sucked it.
But I thought the first four were great.
My favorite part of writing is dialogue. I could have written an MS a long time ago if all it consisted of is banter on the page. I love playing with dialogue. I love creating sexual tension with words. I am in heaven when I'm writing playful dialogue which turns into a serious black moment conversation. The esculating tension of dialogue that forever changes the relationship between the hero and heroine is like writing butta to me:)
Most of my best dialogue comes from ineractions I witness at work. I have some very clever co-workers. One of my favorite things to do is recite favorite lines of dialogue in some of my favorite movies.
Sin, I have to agree. I love the banter between the brothers. They remind me so much of some of the smart mouthed males in my life. JR Ward is wicked clever with dialogue. She makes a brotherhood of vamps appear like the guys next door. That's what I love so much about the series.
Great post Hellion - I think my favorite example of the strongest dialog being what's *not* said is SEP's "It had to be you" (yes, one of the football ones, but the first football one *g*). It's the black moment, and the Dan, the dumbass hero, is talking and talking, and she's desperately waiting for him to say he loves her, and he never does....ahh.
Marn, you started watching Bones!! Yay! I must agree that the banter and dialogue between them is phenomenal. I also like Burn Notice for "spy-talk" and I also love the "That 70's Show" reruns.
Lisa - You do dialoge and love it...try writing a play or screenplay.
Yeah, Eloisa has a way with lovely conversations, they really sparkle. Regency isn't my cup of tea, but I find myself reading her books because of that sparkle.
I like the tension between Fiona and Michael on Burn Notice. And Bruce Campbell is a national treasure.
Chance - I love Michael and Fiona's tension! And I so want to grow up to be Fi.
*LOL* Janga, I totally get that. IF the characters are speaking their own dialogue rather than me putting words in their mouth, I love writing it. If not, then it sucks donkey balls.
Marnee, I'm cracking up at the teenager vs the clinical doctor analogy--but I get it. Totally do the same thing. My characters are WAY too observant of their own neurotic impulses and why they're doing crap. And they're also clever at figuring out other people rather than reacting to it and getting pissed off and sulking in a corner like 99.9% of people would do.
Hmmm, my friend Jackie is a fan of BONES...and all you all are recommending it in spades. I might have to have her bring up a Season so we can watch it, when she visits.
2nd: She "nails" doggie dialogue? Okay, perhaps because I'm not a dog owner, but I've never actually heard a doggie dialogue...like how does that go?
EVERYONE is in love with Bones. I simply must see this show. (I love House, does that count for anything? I hear he and that girl are going to have sex finally.)
I used to focus more on what didn't work in a book. Actually I used to do: "I hate this book!", set it on fire, and never examine WHY I reacted that way. Maybe it was the year of therapy, I don't know, but suddenly you're examining WHY you're reacting a certain way to something. (That's me, I pick everything apart.)
Then I didn't want to have only a list of books and things I hated. I mean, I'm a negative nelly and all, but I don't have to like it. So I worked on finding some books I did love, then started examining WHY I liked them over the othe books. What made them better? What was it I most enjoyed about them, and how could I emulate that?
oh hells - you must watch Bones! The sexual tension alone is worth watching the show. And David Borneaz is hot, so there's a reason right there *g*
And House is going to have sex with what girl??? I have to know more about this...
(I really don't much television, we've just happened to hit on the few shows I do watch today - lol)
Oh, and following up on Terri--if I'm in a really good book, I don't pick it apart as I read it the first time. I'm so sucked in, you can't get me to pay attention to anything but the story itself. Most of my "likes" and "dislikes" come from me following a certain author for the last several years and reading and rereading their books. (I'm a massive rereader.)
I love to reread Jude Deveraux's and Julie Garwood's historicals; I reread some of the beginner phase of the Darkhunter series. I reread Harry Potter frequently. *LOL* I've reread the Lucy Hatch books. It's through the rereading where I can really focus on a line or passage or character I really like and start to dissect why I find it so compelling.
Sin, you ain't kiddin' neither about the snow and ice bringing' out the crazies. Gah. And they're making me one of them.
And I just ate my last mini-peanut butter cup. I hope this afternoon does not get ugly.
I'm sorry the Dagger series is tanking so hard for you. I know you really liked them. There's still the Kim Harrison series though...that one's still good! I'm sure the dialogue's great in that!
Lisa, I love banter dialogue that turns into a Black Moment conversation! I try to do that in my own stuff...and it rarely works. But when it does--woooboy!
Hal, I did read It Had to be You--and that was a phenomenal book. Even if it had a football player in it.
I do have to say I'm petrified they'll put Bones and Booth together. That would really kill the show. And didn't Booth look good in that wife-beater (hate that term but that's what it's called) in the season premier? Between that smile, those shoulders (and all the rest), I'm totally smitten.
Hellie - So are you going to tell us what it was that made you like certain books over others? And my guess is doggie dialogue would sound remarkably similar to Marn's teenage bit up there. LOL! Only spoken faster.
You know...Cuddy or whatever her name is. The curly haired woman who is around his age--they FIGHT all the time. (I mean, I'm surprised they haven't already had sex, actually, they way they fight.)
Hal - That's the exact scene I was thinking of when I said I want to yell, "Just tell her!!!" LOL! I read that black moment sitting in my truck, stressed out, waiting on my ex to deliver my daughter in Knoxville. He was late and I knew I had a 9 hr drive ahead of me through snowy mountains. After reading that scene, I cried for two hours. I'm pretty sure my child thought I was having a nervous breakdown. LOL!
Thanks Hells - I've been waiting for them to get together.
You know, I was thinking about the shows I actually watch on TV, and every single one had a romance I was waiting for - Bones and Burn Notice are the only shows I'll make sure I watch every week, and they both have amazing sexual tension. Hmm...maybe that's why I write romance...
Terri - yeah, I think that scene might be my favorite black moment ever. The emotion all the way through that book is fabulous. I can't fathom reading that black moment, and then having to drive for 9 hours without knowing how it turned out! Gah! Well, that'll certainly keep you awake. I'm not good with delayed gratification - I have to KNOW immediately how the angst is resolved.
I had a to read a literary mystery last month for school, and there was this amazing, perfect black moment between the hero and this girl he loved, but because it wasn't a romance, that was just the end of the relationship. There was no fixing it. And I cried and cried after I put the book down. I still can't think about it without my heart just aching for them. This is why I must have romance. The black moment must be fixed!
If that's doggie dialogue, I'd totally read it. That would be a riot. *LOL*
My likes are subjective.
I love Teresa Medeiros' novels because I think she writes very LUSH, vivid, sensual description. And she's good with comic timing and some one-liners.
I love Jude Deveraux's historicals because she's funny with her plots, mostly; she'll team up the most inappropriate people to get together. And her comic timing is hysterical. Also her secrets are good. Like in Mountain Laurel, the "perfect man" is in conflict with the opera singer. And come to find out, her family are a bunch of mountain men types. The hero used to fight with his brother to play the part of her father. It's just funny when you figure that out.
Julie Garwood is brilliant at cliffhanger endings and one-liners opening up her chapters. And ironic internal dialogue. Not so much on banter, because mostly her heroes grunt...and a lot of her setting is in the middle ages, which is not exactly a "banter" esque time period.
I love Lisa Kleypas because her sexual tension is off the hook and so seamlessly done, you can't even tell. Most sexual tension in books is introduced with sentences like, "The scent of her hair was driving him mad..." or something and it's so obvious. Lisa's just seems...natural. I don't know how she does it. I can't do it; my sexual tension is completely lame.
So far all my sexual tension comes through as frustration. Which anyone who knows me knows makes perfect sense. Damn it.
Hal, they had a black moment and didn't fix it? Was this written by a man? Geez...I swear they won't fix anything! I mean, the black moment is the worst part...and it's over; now make up! I mean, I can't believe they passed up the opportunity for make up sex. The big dummies.
hells - not only did they not fix the black moment, but she went and got engaged to someone else. I even checked the sequel to make sure that they didn't resolve it - nope. she marries the other guy. I want to cry all over again just thinking about it.... it's just not the same without the HEA.
Oh, and it was written by a woman, but first-person in a man's pov. and yes, he royally ruined the relationship, and had no ability to fix it. (he didn't deserve the girl by the end, but really, how many men actually deserve us?) But by the time he tried to fix it, it was too late.
Merrill has a scene where a bunch of dogs are listening to Jimmy, the smartest dog, talking about assorted doggie things. Like what is really edible...'EVERYTHING.' How to get up on the bed, 'lower the jaw, open the eyes wide, stare...takes a month from begining to end'. Where you are supposed to pee... It's hysterical.
Merrill invented stupid pet tricks for Dave Letterman. She's brilliant when it comes to all things doggie.
Yeah, I want to be Fiona when I grow up... Or Ziva from NCIS.
I do like how Michael and Fiona are sorta on/off. They both know they are fated to be together... Tho I liked her Irish accent from the early shows, wish they'd kept that up.
Hel - ya gotta watch Bones.
That chick doesn't have the accent anymore? Really? I sort of watched when Burn Notice first started, because that dude is pure sex on a stick, but I didn't want to get caught up in another drama. But her accent was cool.
And isn't the premise that they were lovers in the past? That really adds an element Bones doesn't have.
*snorts* That reminds me of the instructions Mittens was giving Bolt when she was trying to teach him how to be a dog. *LOL*
Hel! Exactly, but dog to dog, with commentary of how inattentive humans are. Like how many meals a dog needs a day. Dogs say 10. Humans say 1. Hence the topic, edible or inedible.
Nope, they let Fiona drop the accent. And yup, history in the sack. In a nutshell, he doesn't want to hurt her. She doesn't want to be hurt. But they are perfect for each other...spy rule, don't get emotionally involved. Makes for some great tension. (I do wish she'd gain some weight, tho!)
A small point of clarity:
Helli I meant your writing makes the perfect breakfast companion!
Though I'm sure having you in the kitchen as well would be shear delight....as long as you don't put stewed tomatoes onto toast. *grin*
I still think a rollicking plot beats fancy dialogue any day....talk is cheap its action that counts when the chips are down. :lol:
Oh, good! I'm so glad you don't like stewed tomatoes on toast either. (I mean, really, what is that about? Wait, don't you all do beans on toast too?) Actually the Toads in the Holes is the breakfast/tea item that always sounded intriguing. And Scottish eggs. *LOL*
Action does speak louder than words. *grins* THOUGH, if you were sorting through the comments, you'll find we like words and action. When that Bones character was beating up the bad guy--and saying, "That's my partner!" I mean, that's the best of both worlds there.
Chance,
I think sometimes I'm moving in the wrong direction with writing. I probably should be writing a screenplay. I have studied some books on screen writing and it's the kind of writing I enjoy. Who knows, maybe I'll give it a try. I've always envisioned writing a novel, but it would be wicked fun to hear your own dialogue in a movie:)
Lisa - I agree. If you can really envision the characters going back and forth...why not? Plays are so much about the dialogue...and situations. "Noises Off" (I think that was the title, but with my brain melting out my ears each night...who knows?) is a good example. The fast dialogue, the witty back and forth...words are such magic!
I make a mean stewed tomato based crock pot meal...man, I'm hungry!
Hal and Ter - I'm right there with you on that scene in SEP's It Had To Be You. Just thinking about it makes my stomach churn and my eyes water. I was going to do a re-read and I think I let someone borrow that one!
Terri - you have to get through that series so you can get to Match Me If You Can - that's my second favorite one in that series! I love Heath and Annabelle.
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