Coincidence? I think not...
My latest love has been paranormals. I’ve pretty much read every one I’ve been able to get my hands on of late. But, with my new reading direction, I’ve started to notice the “fate as explanation” tendency in romance as it’s particularly obvious in a lot of paranormals.
For example, we’ve been talking the Twilight series of late (with the movie out so recently – PS, I saw this weekend and swooned like a 15 year-old).
SPOILER ALERT, in case there is someone out there who hasn’t read yet.
In Breaking Dawn, Bella is revealed to have a power that turns out to be the exact opposite of Edward’s power. Oh, perhaps Bella just happened to move to Forks where she just happened to meet Edward who just happened to be able to hear everyone in the entire world’s thoughts save hers. And perhaps I could assume that Bella just happened to meet Jacob who just happens to love her until it’s clear, once Bella has Nessie, that Jacob was really connected with the parts of Bella that would become Nessie. And that relationship, with Jacob able to remain immortal and Nessie to be immortal just happened to work out perfectly.
Maybe I could believe all that. But, I’m probably not supposed to assume that it’s all just coincidence. Instead, I’m sure I’m supposed to assume that fate was at play, that these folks all found their soul mates, despite unreasonable supernatural complications.
In another example, I’ve been reading JR Ward’s Black Dagger Brotherhood series. Like many other vampire series the protagonists are super duper old with many of the vampires alive for hundreds of years. Yet, it seems that all of them are going to find their soul mates within months of one another.
The explanations are good. For Twilight, Edward is uncontrollably attracted to Bella’s scent. In JR Ward’s stuff, Rhage initially falls for Mary’s voice for example. In numerous other stories, there is something that just draws the hero and heroine together. Smells, sounds, the feel of them, something. It’s the chicken or egg debate whether fate caused the attraction or the attraction is because of fate.
Before I sound too sarcastic, I admit to loving both the Twilight books and Ward’s series. I mean no disrespect. Both authors are incredibly talented.
I just started wondering about the use of fate, or some manifestation of it in regard to body odor or what have you, as a catalyst for love, for soul mating, in fiction.
I think that to some degree, fate plays a role like this in every book. We assume that our hero and heroine are supposed to be together. The glittery hoo-ha, etc. But in paranormals, the trend seems to be more overt than that. There are prophecies and visions; there are angels and hardly known scripture passages suggesting the coupling.
My question to you is does any of that make it harder for you, as a reader, to believe in the happily ever after? If a couple’s happiness is heavily manipulated by fate, does that make you sigh or frustrate you? If it’s satisfying, why? If it’s annoying, why?
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51 comments:
Interesting thoughts Marnee.
To assume that fate rather than chance is controlling destiny would imply a degree of determinism that is simply not observed in the real world. Reality is believed to be Quantum Mechanical, where only probabilities of certain outcomes are determined.
Having said that, there is much about living systems that remain mysterious and 'beyond our ken'. For example the case where a cat leaps at the telephone when its master rings home and doesn't do it when someone else rings (Rupert Sheldrake lists many similar phenomenon).
A holographic or holistic world view is beginning to emerge where everything in the universe is coupled at some level (Quantum mechanically entangled). People who are 'tuned' and so susceptible to love may be coupled particularly strongly through resonance. So perhaps fate does have a role in that the probabilities of HEs are higher than random chance.
In Quantum theory the heroine could have a number of potential heroes and chance must play some role, but to have it completely determined by fate would ruin the fun!
Thats tuned me up nicely for the day.....Thanks Marnee. :D
I don't mind the fate hand actually. Maybe that is why I like para's so much? But just think, if they really have to work to love each other on top of being thrown together by fate... it all makes it that much more sigh worthy :)
I think if you look at life you can ask yourselves these same questions. Is it fate that I was born in Alberta but moved more than halfway across the country to Ontario so that I could meet my future husband? Is it fate that although we lived in the same small town near Toronto for years and never knew each other, we still met in a club in Niagara Falls? Is it fate that I loved the laughter in his eyes, or that he couldn't put me out of his head even though he said he didn't want a girlfriend?
I don't necessarily think that it is fate. But this is life. And maybe we as writers take that to the extreme in some ways, but I don't find it unrealistic.
The fate thing doesn't bother me most of the time, but what I'm finding is that the older I get, the more cynical I get about these things. In my 20s I thought fate brought me my husband. Now I just call it bad luck. ;)
I had a guy ask me recently if I believe in soul mates. I wasn't sure how to answer. I did say I think it's possible to have more than one love of your life and that some are lucky enough to find their soul mate, but these days those couples are more the exception to the rule than the norm.
Now I wonder if that was the wrong answer.
No, Terri, considering Upchuck, that was not the wrong answer. He was no soulmate.
I think we can all get tired of too much of a good thing.
For instance, I can gorge myself on "reunion" stories--can't get enough of them--but after awhile of finding reunion stories and reading them one after another, I start to find it real annoying that the ugly duckling heroine (because it seems pretty rare this works in reverse) is finally, finally noticed by the hero and they live happily ever after.
BUT I get really sick of "love at first sight" books, which seem to be the other trend. Oh, I'll read them...
I can also get a little tired of the Cinderella theme, the Romeo & Juliet theme, and the Beauty and the Beast theme...they all get a little old when you keep reading the same archetype over and over.
So, yes, I can understand when you're writing paranormals--and you're reading a glut of paranormal novels--yes, fate is going to be the primary theme. Magic and fate do seem to go hand in hand with each other (except maybe in Harry Potter, where JK Rowling made a big deal about how prophesies/fate isn't the determining factor of our lives, but the choices we make) and I'm sure that's why it's used so often, especially in romance because there is something so romantic about being "destined" for each other.
I'm kinda with Elinor (Sense & Sensibility) though: there is something rather perverse about the thought of being compatible with only one person.
Who is to say we couldn't be happy with one person as another? *shrugs* Though that ruins the effect of everyone being so damned special that we matter to someone else in the world--they wouldn't be able to live without us. Maybe we want to believe in fate, pre-determination and the like because of our egos. In a sense it gives us some meaning to our lives. *shrugs*
Okay, this comment started out talking about one thing and then tangented off into another.
Summary:
READ OTHER STUFF. You're reading too many paranormals and even JR Ward would get burned out at this point. Switch it up.
WE NEED FATE. If only to protect our egos. We all want to believe there is something bigger than us, guiding everything. Very few of us want to believe this is all some chaotic marvel with no spiritual meaning behind it.
Hellion says:
WE NEED FATE. If only to protect our egos. We all want to believe there is something bigger than us, guiding everything. Very few of us want to believe this is all some chaotic marvel with no spiritual meaning behind it.
Speak for yourself! *g*
I prefer to control my own destiny thank you. Fate doesn't always yield a HEA. :wink:
Rhage and Mary's book, Lover Eternal, was my favorite JR Ward book.
I have to agree with Q. But then, I'm a control freak so the idea that I have no control over my own destiny just doesn't sit well.
*grins* I understand, but you have to understand I was raised in the church--so God and the chaos theory doesn't go hand in hand. You know the saying you can take the girl out of the church, but can't take the church out of the girl? That's me.
I do believe our choices affect our outcome and that we do have influence (if not total control) over our "fate"; however, I'm kinda old school in the thought that if you believe in God (which I do), then none of this is random chance that you do or do not.... Which is illogical. I'm sure there are plenty of chaos scientists who believe there is a higher power, even if things are "random".
And Terri, you can be as control freak as you like, but there are things you can't stop or prevent: like falling in love or death...
I believe in a Designer of both the macrocosm and the microcosm, but I also believe that individuals are given choices. My definition of adulthood id the freedom to make choices and the understanding that you live with the consequences of your choices.
As far a romantic love is concerned, I've always found my undergrad religion profs view persuasive: there are a dozen potential mates out there you could be happy with, about half of those you could be happier with, and one you could be happiest with.
I'm a control freak as well. I must control every aspect of my life. I believe in fate, but not love at first sight. No soul mates either.
You can prevent pretty much anything you set your mind to. You allow yourself to fall in love. You just don't wake up some morning and tell yourself, today is the day I'll just trip into love.
"My definition of adulthood id the freedom to make choices and the understanding that you live with the consequences of your choices"
I meant "is" rather than "id," but doubtless the id is involved--in our choices and in my error. :)
Hi Everyone, sorry I'm late today....
Q - you're welcome. :) I think that you bring up a great point. I think that fate playing a role is fine, but I do get frustrated when it seems too heavy handed. I want to feel like there is a reason for things, that the world isn't completely coincidental. But, I don't want to feel like a puppet on a string.
Tiff - I agree. I say make them work as hard as possible!! *sigh is right*
JK - Ah, what good perspective. You're right; that reality feels a little of both.
I don't necessarily *hate* that fate feels heavy-handed sometimes.... I just think sometimes if I feel like things aren't plausible, it drags me out of the story.
Hellion - I also was raised in the church (albeit a different one than you were) and I remember the whole thing about free will. We were all given free will to make our own choices. And every choice changes our destiny.
I'm well aware that I'm not actually in control of much at all. Doesn't mean I have to like it. LOL!
Janga - I like that statement about there being a dozen down to the one with whom we can be happiest. And that's why I'd say all of this romance business is very tricky. You could settle with the wrong one and miss the right one, or spend forever waiting for the right one and miss them anyway. Not very encouraging really.
But if you're happy with the one you're with, how would you know if you'd be happier with someone else? Unless you're one of those people who's always looking for greener grass...which I think makes you "destined" to never be happy. I think there is a balance between seeking the right person and also being happy with the one you have...
But I've never been married, so I could be way off here.
Am I the only person who bought into the whole Jacob imprinting on the baby bit? I mean, it's not like Stephanie Meyer didn't lead us down that possibility when she brought up Quin imprinting on the 2 year old and having that scene/discussion...and as writers, you don't have scenes and discussions if they're not going to mean something later, in some capacity.
I found the idea of Jacob imprinting on the baby PREDICTABLE, but I didn't find it outside the "rules" of the Twilight world.
Terri, we had the whole free will thing too. Which is why I was always confused and irritated that the angels didn't have free will too...
I guess we can do both-and. But to me, it's still like "who does the story belong to"--you can have a hero and heroine who play equal parts, but one owns the story more. In the end, despite free will, I think God owns more of the intellectual property--so to speak--and thus Fate (God) plays a bigger role. A slightly bigger role.
Ter - I read a book, yikes, like 10 years ago, called Only Love is Real, by Brian Weiss, MD. It's about soulmates. I remember being really moved by it, though of course, I remain skeptical. The basic idea is that souls are all working to gain knowledge, that in this fashion, souls will follow other souls through lifetimes in order to gain understanding of each other. So that meeting a soulmate isn't really in question, it's what you (your soul?) decides to do when you come across a soulmate that is. And these "matings" of souls are really our soul recognizing another.
*deep breath* That was rambly. Seriously, it was a neat book for anyone, however you feel about that stuff. At least it made me sigh.
Cap'n - I think you're right (as always) on a lot of things. I think I need to read some other stuff, I'm just loving the paranormals right now.... *pouting*
But you're right; it's hard to think of this all being interconnected chaos. If things go poorly, I want to think there was a reason for why it's not going well and if things go well, I like to think it's because I deserve it, not because I just got incredibly lucky. And when I look at others, I like to think that good people get what they deserve and vice versa, that there is some sort of justice in the world (even if there isn't).
Sin -Lover Eternal is my favorite so far. Rhage *swoons*
Oh, and also, Hellion, I think that there must be more than one person we can be happy with too....
Janga - Is that what religion profs say? Hmm.... Did they have any idea about how you know? I mean, I adore my husband to death and I can't imagine being without him. Does that make me the happiest, or just in the happier category?
This stuff gives me a headache.... LOL!!
Sin - I agree. I think that it's not as easy as everyone ends up with who they should be with. I have a really good girlfriend who I think is the sweetest human ever. She's got exactly no mean bones in her body. I have to remind her when it's ok for her to be bitchy. If anyone deserves to be happy, this girl does. Yet, she hasn't met someone to love, to grow old with.
Stuff like that doesn't make sense in a "fate makes things roll" kind of universe, I think.
Ter says, "You could settle with the wrong one and miss the right one, or spend forever waiting for the right one and miss them anyway. Not very encouraging really."
EXACTLY! How does one know? Is it one of those, you know when you know things? Because I find that supremely unhelpful. I thought my HS/college boyfriend was "the one" but 5 years into that relationship when his taking me for granted peaked and he assumed it'd be ok to spend a romantic weekend in NYC (in the same bed/hotel room) with another girl, I started to doubt that "he's the one" feeling.
The paras I've been reading definitely don't address that stuff....
Fran, I totally got the whole imprinting on the baby thing. My whole argument was more about the convenience of it all.
Personally, though, I found Jacob's second of BD tedious. I liked him up until then.
And I thought that Edward and Bella looked annoying in that section too.
Deserving vs Lucky. You know I think that might be the KEY difference between fiction and reality. We have fiction--commercial fiction--because we want a world in which things make sense. The bad guy is caught; the "deserving hero" gets the girl; right trumps wrong. But most of the time in life that is not the case.
You can work your ass off at something--forever--and still not get what you want. And you can get someone who works a 10th of the effort, and gets it on the first try. Which was more deserving?
And I don't think love is always about being deserving. All of us are unmitigated pains in the ass, complete neurotic nitwits in some form or another...and yet by the grace of someone somewhere, we manage to find someone who is willing to put up with our mess and whose mess we're willing to put up with. I don't think you have to be deserving to be loved--and I don't think you should have to be: any teenager is living proof of that.
And also there is a long list of people I know who are "deserving" of love, but never get it.
Only in fiction is the "deserving" a necessary component; it's necessary for the story arc to happen.
Ah, FATE!
I can read fateful stories but I don't really have a love for them.
I really believe in the ultimate power to choose. On bad days in marriage I like to blame fate for bringing us together, (this way I don't get any of the blame). On the blissful days, I like to take credit and say that I chose my beloved mate. LOL.
I guess if it's fate or choice, ultimately, I believe that I am the hero or the villain in my own story.
Hellion - yes yes yes. :) There's a sort of justice in fiction, at least in our kind of fiction. The good guys prevail in the end. It feels fair and right, unlike the way reality can feel at times.
IG - hello! I think the whole good days belong to me, bad ones belong to some other far off entity thing is standard marriage fare. LOL!! And isn't it true that we really are the good and bad guy all rolled up in one.
Fascinating discussion! I find fate a bit of heavy handed counselor. It might push or suggest or encourage, but in the end, it's up to us. I am a huge proponent of personal responsibility. Even the stuff that happens without cause...we have the choice on how we react to it. How we let it drive us... In the end, we are responsible for our last reaction. Does that make sense?
I don't really have a problem with fate being used in fiction. But I know it's fiction. Though I think it may answer why I have a difficult time ending my own stories...because life and people never stop changing, making new choices, painting the picture of their lives. And I'm nosey...I want to know ALL of it.
Writing an ending closes that door.
Having said that, I married my high school sweetie 29 years ago. My soul mate? That's an ongoing project!
Fate/God/Goddess offers opportunities, but we make the ultimate decision. And we can change our mind, change who we are...that is what life does, offers change. I love the chaos of it! But some say I'm twisted...
Personal responsibility is a good one. I'll back that.
Why can't it be both? I mean, isn't most things a blend of the two? Maybe the Fate is just sticking out more and annoying Marnee--but it's not playing more of a factor than the decisions/choice/personal responsibility. I think Marnee just feels that letting Fate play a role at all devalues the choices we make, but is that necessarily true?
I don't see it that way. Fate makes suggestions, sets opportunities in our path...but to let it dictate? Sorry, my life is a democracy and I have a vote. I'd hope most of the stories say that...
I remember a movie with Robert Downey, Jr.... and a actress I can't name... She had a reading from a oujie board that named her true love... Years later a phone call when she was getting ready to get married happened. And the caller had that name...? She raced off to Paris to find him, sure it was her fate to be with this one guy...?
It's a good lesson in the whole fate thing. How she meets RDJr. and he finds himself enamored of her...but the twist is he isn't that guy...but pretends he is because it seems like the only way she'll pay attention to him. In the end, she has to make a decision about who is in control... A oujie board and her.
It could be argued without the board, she'd never have run off to Paris and met RDJr... But the name was planted by her bratty brother... So???
I recommend it... Just wish I could remember what it's called! LOL!
I imagine the best authors put it into this sort of perspective. I mean, who the hell wants to be controlled to such a factor? Let fate call all the shots? Isn't that what religion is for? ;)
(Ducking to avoid the thrown mugs from the true believers.)
Peace! (Waving white flag, offering extra hoo for the next round...)
I still think it's both. *crosses arms*
Only You is the name of the movie. I remember that. *LOL* (I didn't care much for the movie, because despite that I'm arguing that fate plays a part in life, I don't believe in just one soul mate and wouldn't have done what this girl did...nor would I have turned down Robert Downey Jr when I found out he wasn't who I thought he was...*LOL* I mean, sure, it's a romance so she wakes up...but still...)
Oh, fate plays a part, definately! How else would we presented with the need to make choices?
You have a better memory than I, Cap'n. I liked the movie...basically. I mean, the marriage she was getting ready to celebrate wasn't right, or she wouldn't have been so hell bent of flying off to Paris. I have to applaud her instincts.
We all make poor choices, but the powerful part of being human? We can make new choices. We aren't stuck, or 'fated', to suffer for all eternity because we made a poor choice. It might take extra work to dig ourselves out of the mess, but we can do it... I hate the whole "I have to live with the consequences..." No, you don't. You just have to take charge and do what it takes to recover from that sucking choice.
Surrender to fate? NO blooming way.
And I think it's that mentality that frustrates readers. It's a weak premise. It's a victim mentality.
*LOL* Ah, instead of "You made your bed now lie in it" do "when life gives you lemons, make lemonade." Nice analogy.
And I'm hearing that Dylan guy in the background. That "don't go quietly into that good night" thing. I have to go to lunch. I hate when I have English class flashbacks. Esp when I don't have any Xanex.
Have a good lunch, good food can outdo a Xanex... And enjoy a hooha... I'm off for hair do thing... Wonder if I can get the tossled, just out of bed look...?
Hellion says: "I think Marnee just feels that letting Fate play a role at all devalues the choices we make, but is that necessarily true?"
I don't think that exactly... I think that the world is some combo between personal responsibility and fate/things out of our control. I just get annoyed when in books fate feels TOO heavy handed. When it feels almost like the characters really don't have a choice.
I'm loving this discussion. I'm totally with 2nd Chance. I refuse to turn things over to fate though I accept that fate exists. The problem is, what seems *right* today can seem *wrong* next year.
For me it's about taking risks. Some people refuse to do anything that would put their heart at risk. Though I'm a bit gun shy and for good reason, I still believe in taking risks. Without risk, life would be terribly boring.
Marn - I'm with you on fate being too heavy handed. I can live with "fate threw you into my path" but not the "I must have you because you are my fate." Make sense? Probably not. LOL!
Ter, that's exactly what I'm trying to say. I think that whole, "you're fated for me" thing is a little much for me. I can't tell whether it's because I'm just not as romantic as I was 10 years ago and that's what throws me out of the story or if it does that for everyone.
Marn - It makes total sense. I want the hero to be attracted to the heroine because of something about her. The way she makes him laugh, the way she makes him feel strong. And the heroine should feel something for the hero for a good reason too. The way he protects her. The way he is with his dog. When the author falls back on fate, these real reasons are eliminated and then the HEA isn't as satisfying or believable.
I think fate can put us in each other's paths, but there better be some substance to us that draws us together.
I'm on the fence with Fate. In some ways, I think things work out for a reason and in others, I think you make your own way. As to soul mates, it depends on the person. Some are lucky enough where the first one they meet is the "one." And others have to work through various "ones."
I think there could be a lot of people you could live happily with, but I would hope that there's one person out there who really gets you. But since I haven't come across any in my experiences, I'm in the highly doubt corner.
I'm stopping in as quick as lightning. I wish I had time to read all the comments.
Hubs believes that God preordained us for each other, and I can so totally see that. We're high school sweethearts and didn't even go to the same high school.
Do I believe in Fate? My mother, an Air Force brat, moved from California her Jr. year to a small town of about 100, 45 minutes away from the base in Kansas where my grandfather was stationed. My father had just moved to that same small town only a year before from Nebraska when his father had followed work. There was only 13 in their graduating class. So, yeah, I believe in fate.
Renee
In my newest WIP, the hero is widowed and was in love with his wife. Considered her to be "the one" for him and doesn't think love can happen twice . . . but he's wrong, of course. So, I am playing on that theme a bit in the novel.
The one thing I love about romances is that no matter what---no matter the odds, the obstacles, etc., that at the end of the story, the hero and heroine end up together, in love, and know that life can suck, but it'll suck a bit less by being together. It makes my romantic sensibilities and hopes . . . hope that it's possible in real life.
Ely - I'm with you. Still on the fence I guess. :) I like the idea of your widower finding that love can happen twice. I always love that theme. :)
Renee - Awhh.... how sweet you guys are.... :) That's awesome.
So, basically, he's LOTS of fun to write.
(I clicked on submit before I was done).
Well, he's a really bad boy, Marnee, too.
Ely - The hero in my WIP didn't lose his wife but he did lose his fiance. I'm finding it's an interesting subject to tackle. And I've read it done well before. I do believe it's possible to have more than one true love in your life. And those lucky enough to find it twice should be extremely thankful since many of us don't find it even once! LOL!
Renee - That's just plum cute.
LOL! Yay writing bad boys. I think I might give one of those a shot next.... :)
If I've said it once, I'll say it again! I can't ever keep up with the speed of these comments! But interesting topic...I keep reading snippets when I get a moment and I'm facinated by the opinions! I guess we could go around in circles on this one. I haven't met The One but then again I don't know if there is one. I, too, am on the fence. I talk about fate bringing me together with people, but I don't know if I totally believe. I consider Mary my friend soulmate. We are an absolute perfect match in the friend department. Fate? Perhaps, or perhaps just a willingness to let the other person in and let the friendship grow. Heaven forbid anything would ever happen that would drive Mary and I apart (never!) but would one then consider that fate as well? I would be one to think not.
Still, fate is romantic. :)
Steph - very good insight. I agree with you too. And you're definitely right, Fate sure is romantic. *sigh*
I think of my sister as my soulmate. I suppose that's sorta the same thing.
Wow, I missed a great discussion yesterday! I was out Xmas shopping from 8 am until 9 pm with my “fated” DH!
I think I’m one of those that believe in a little bit of both. I kind of like 2nd Chance’s observations. I do think my DH was thrown into my path for a reason and at the time I needed him, but I also believe that without our hard work and a lot of very difficult decisions on both of our parts we would not be together today. It’s more romantic for me to believe that my being with him was a choice we both made (knowing each other’s flaws, neuroses and foibles) and not that we really had no choice and it was all fated to happen anyway. I always lecture my children that love is a choice not a feeling. The fuzzy feeling brought me to my DH, my choice keeps me with him.
I’d also hate to think that there is only one person out there for everyone. I suppose I’m so neurotic that if I really believed that I would have never stopped looking. LOL I really believe in second chances at love. I also believe that we’re constantly changing. So, in that respect, I think that the type of man/woman that attracts us at different stages of our lives changes. So those that re-marry after being happily married and widowed probably choose a different spouse than the one they chose the first time around. Does that make sense?
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