Tuesday, June 10, 2008
Writing Outside the "Box"
"I've gotta go home and dig through my box."I hear quiet. Then a laugh. "I'd like to hear more about this box."
There was lots of laughter as I walked down the stairs.
"You! You should write about me and a box."
I flopped down in my old, wore-out blue tweed chair and flipped an annoyed look his way.
"A box?"
"You know. A box. How I like to dig around in the box. Me and a box and adventures about me playing with the box. You know-" He made the motions with his hands like he was digging around in the sandbox looking for buried cat treasure. "You never know what you can find inside of the box."
I had to have a mental moment with myself. Was I actually awake? Or was I dreaming this insanity. I look back over at him and he's grinning. I think I might have rubbed off on him accidently. Can you get insanity by osmosis?
I can't go any further with that conversation without taking it straight down the gutter into perv land. But you get the point. I bet you can guess who had this conversation and what day it was on too. Hellion had a similar conversation. Almost a mirror of a conversation Matt and I had months earlier about the ability to swallowing large things.
Yeah. Scratch that. We can't go there today. I'm talking about writing.
I'm pretty sure I used this title, probably early on in my blogging career with the pirates. But I couldn't resist to use it again after a suggestion from Hellion on Saturday. Once a month Hellion and I get together to discuss *okay, we pretend to discuss* writing goals, critiquing, brainstorming, books, anything that has to do with writing. This gives us an idea what we need to work on for the next month. Gives us an opportunity to have a face to face brainstorm session or bitch session about scenes that aren't being wrote the way you want to write them. *raising hand sheepishly*
Like every monthly Saturday, Hellion and I found ourselves gossiping like two old bitties out front at the local hot spot- C&S (formally known as Price's. I still call it that.) Of course, we mostly gossip about books and were sitting at the B&N while I drank some coffee, but those are just minor details. So see, I can stay on task... sometimes. We actually did more than we think we did. I mean, I did share notes about something I'm planning on working on. I'm making progress on DV (not as good of progress as I wanted to make by now but still, I've got until Labor Day to finish). Hellion is making headway with her WIP's. Especially Lucy and Elizabeth. Love them. We talked out some ideas and had more than a few laughs.
I stiff armed the idea of going into a critique group. I just didn't feel like it was the path for me. I'm a soltary creature by nature. I do well on my own and don't normally play well with others (I guess that truly makes me a pirate, huhzah!) but there are times that I'm really grateful for the critique groups and critique partners I have. It's important to have that backing when things are going wrong and the end of the road is nowhere in sight.
So, for me to write with a partner, it pushes me outside of my box. Since we're talking about boxes. Out of my confort zone. But it's a good thing.
So today, let's talk critique groups/writing partners/sounding boards. How do you like to go about writing? Do you like being outside of the box?
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35 comments:
I'll dive in here. Great Blog, Sin.
Three years ago, I wouldn't have thought I'd be asking people to tell me what stinks about my writing. But, I want to get better so desperately, I'm searching for constructive criticism like a hound sniffing out a fox.
The pirates are an invaluable sounding board for me. I throw out ideas and you guys each come from such interesting backgrounds that you always have a different perspective. It's a vault of endless brainstorming and I doubt I'd be where I am without them.
I also belong to a yahoo critique group where I work with two CPs. You critique through your WIP/MS a chapter at a time. I've only been part of it for a little over a month but it's been a good experience so far.
As you pirates know, I'm sort of a needy writer. I ask everyone their thoughts, have everyone I can read my stuff, and am eternally grateful for all input. :)
Oh, and of course, I have a number of beta readers who help me out. My family and some of my friends read my stuff when I need them to help me search out plot holes or when my characters are out of character.
Great blog, Sin. These tidbits of conversation always crack me up.
I'm the opposite of Marn, I don't like to share. But I'm a controlling PITA who hates to ask for help in anything, not just writing. Since I won a crit (purely by accident) from Loucinda, I had to let her see the WIP. I got the pages with her notes in the mail last night and had two reactions.
1) My work is not nearly as bad as I feared.
2) Loucinda is an AWESOME critiquer. (Is that a word?)
I'm thankful I won this when I did, it's going to make a huge difference going forward, and she gave me the perfect way to up the stakes which is what I desperately needed.
For the record, I'm sure I would have gotten the same out of my fellow pirates, if I'd ever let them see it. LOL!
I don't know where I'd be without my CPs I've learnt a lot through them, by getting crits and giving them.
I have many critters I work with, and I think I'm lucky I haven't had too many bad run-ins with them.
I love beta readers (thank you marn) they know nothing of my thinking process or the story I've struggled with, they haven't been through any of the plotting with me... so they are brand spanking new and can offer some of the best advice because they aren't close to the work :)
You're welcome Tiff! :) It was a pleasure, even though I'm a slow reader these days.
Good morning pirates!
Ah critique partners. I love my critique partners.
I wrote my entire first book without a single soul reading it except me (over and over again). Right up until the very last draft when I knew I couldn’t hold out any longer, and finally begged Tiffany to look at it (although at the same time I really didn’t want her to look at it because I was scared out of my skin). I think she was purposely being gentle with me that first time, because since then she’s become a real hard ass ()
Why hadn’t I found someone earlier? I tried, honestly. Not very hard, granted. But I did try. And I admit that I met a few people I would have trusted in that role. But besides the occasional posting of snippets here and there which was more for moral support than anything else, the opportunity just never came up. The writers I knew had already formed pairings with other writers, and I didn’t want to be a part of a large online group with a lot of rules that made you pay a fee to be a member, and said you could only have something critiqued if you’d previously critiqued three other writers’ work if the sun was aligned over Venus and a black cat crossed your path at midnight.
Now that I’ve gotten past a lot of my insecurity about letting others look at my work (I kind of have no choice anyway, since the work is out there for everyone to read, lol), I can’t say enough about how grateful I am to my critique partners. I can always count on them for support, truth and great brainstorming sessions (I still laugh my ass off at the “results” of the last one)
I actually joined a yahoo crit group about a week ago just to see if it was my cup of tea. So far it has made me highly uncomfortable, I think the because I'm so new to the writing world. I thought at first it would be great to get feedback from people I don't know, but I feel like I'm standing in the street naked and I have yet to make a post. Once I get more writing under my belt and more confidence about where I'm going with my WIP I'm sure that will change. So far I've discovered I do well brainstorming with one person in a one on one session.
Great blog!
Lisa hit it perfectly. The vulnerability is too much for me. Fragile ego and all that. Finding the right person or people to work with is so hard. They have to get you and get your work. It's like having to date around to find the right fit. And I hate dating.
That's why I was relieved when our pirate group worked so well. We got lucky maybe. And Marn is right, it's fun to get feedback from such different perspectives. We could all be given the same first sentence for a story and you'd have five very different works.
I'm...I'm not sure what I am. I'm not quite as hermit-like as Sin, which is apparent, since I strong-armed her into joining my ship, blogging each week, and coming to a critique group with me each month, even though she still hadn't finished her fan fic--which she wanted to get done before she moved onto originals. (Gosh, that makes me sound bossy. I'm not that bossy. I prefer: PASSIONATE. I'm very passionate. *LOL* And I was very passionate about Sin being in my group of friends and writing with me. Even though she's a better writer and I'm jealous.)
BUT neither do I let betas read my work. People ask to read pieces of it, but it's kinda rare I share it. I've been burned enough; and I know my first drafts are bad enough...and well, a lot of my betas aren't writers...and they don't even read the kind of book I'm writing...so their imput is rather...unhelpful. Let me give an example. There was this guy who wanted to read a chapter...so I showed him a chapter (it was the old version of Lucy's story) and he read it and he said, "Elizabeth is..." his eyes swept over me "YOU." "Not really. I can't sing and I can't dance." "Yeah, right." He read a bit more. "Do you think you should have all these italics?" (There weren't that many. And frankly as a guy, he has no idea the internal dialogue that goes on in a woman's mind. I sometimes think the internal dialogue in a man's mind is STATIC and that's all.) "Yes, I should. But thanks..." "No, I...don't you think there should be a saber-light scene?" "In my contemporary novel? You want a Star Wars scene?" "It'd make it more interesting."
So really I don't let betas read anymore.
But my CPs are the bomb. And the CPs I have that *really get my voice* and what I want to do, they are invaluable to me. I love them. I would take a bullet for them, they're so awesome. Granted that sounds like I'm seeking opinions where they agree I'm brilliant...possibly true, but my CPs who get what I'm doing DO give me brilliant ideas that change and make my WIP way better and actually, truly brilliant.
And Matty is a damned riot. *LOL* I don't mind when he gives me crap...at least he was being social. The last couple times I've been he's been bearish...so obnoxious Matty is actually preferred.
Great comments everyone! I didn't realize how swamped I was going to be today *okay, I did but I was hoping I'd have more time to play than I have so far*.
I'm not much for betas either. I have a few people I trust for honest feedback but I don't usually give anything to anyone. I'm still trying to work on a summary to post *looking innocent* I will get it up before the end of the month. I swear. Pirate's honor.
It's a huge leap of faith to let someone read you. It's like walking out on a Broadway stage completely nude and doing a song and dance routine without messing up. I struggle with that sort of thing. Usually getting feedback of any kind makes me stumble around for days afterwards. Even if it's good. I like to just write and hide.
Ter- You should try living with someone who has this type of conversation every time he opens his mouth. It gets real interesting.
Hellion- Matty's got permenant PMS. I don't claim to understand it. He likes you because you pose no threat in the highly volatile drama category and I don't get uber stressed out by hanging with you.
I've always been somewhat solitary and don't like to show things to people until I'm pretty sure they are as good as I can make them. On the other hand, I know that betas and crit partners are pretty much a necessity. My pride doesn't want one-my pride wants to be great right out of the box. My pride needs to go get stuffed and shut the heck up, and I know this.
However, I think there is a lot of trust for me to build before I'd accept a crit partner(s). I missed the boat on groups of people I trusted forming after Avon because I just wasn't ready. I'm still not quite ready, but I'm getting there and the thought of finding a group is as scary as the querying process is / will be.
Sarah
Except for snippets and in one case a few chapters, no one has read my mss. Once I finish revisions, then I will beg some of my writer friends to read TLWH, but I belong to the Lamott School. "Shitty first drafts" are strictly for my eyes.
Predictably I have a quote to share. I love these words from Pooh: "When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.”
Sin - It's probably hard to believe but Matty would fit into my family perfectly. Smart ass comment for everything and everything leads to the topic of sex. I've often warned people, my family could turn a convo about girl scout cookies into something horribly perverted. It's a gift. LOL!
Sarah - Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't you having lots of success in contests? Or is that someone else? I know you were great during Fanlit. That great right out of the box thing is probably not far off.
Janga - that is a great Pooh quote. And so true.
When I first started writing I had no idea what to expect or what was expected from me.
What I've discovered is, I do need critique partners, not a whole bunch, and not ones that pat me on the head and tell me to keep up the good work. I tend to be a little over dramatic when it comes to emotional scenes. I need someone to say "Whoa! That's not working for me."
It took me a while to find out what I wanted...er needed in a critique partner. Now that I know, I have three of the best cps. Sometimes, all right, a lot of the time we don't agree, but it gets me out of my box and it makes me think beyond the horizon.
And I do keep a beta or two around. I like those fresh eyes.
Swallowing large things?
Renee
Love the box, Sin!
Sometimes I feel like Capt. Jack Sparrow in POTC 3 trying to sort through what's real or not real in the box. LOL. That's when a good critique partner can be a lifesaver. Fresh eyes and an eye for the overlooked details make for a stronger story. But getting to the point where you can open your work for critique is oftentimes quite hard, indeed.
Sarah! Thanks for boarding the ship today!
I have pride issues too. And trust issues. Let's just say I've got issues. If you go looking for a crit group, you'll find one that works for you because you know what you want in a critiquer.
LOL. Janga, I love Pooh Bear. I'm very private about my writing. I find myself turning five shades of red when attention gets turned onto me and my writing. I personally think it's never good enough to read (and here's where the trusting thing bites me). It's hard to hand it over to someone when you don't think it's good enough to read in the first place. I never reread my stuff. Mostly comes from writing fan fiction where I could post a chapter at a time. Rereading just makes me want to change it all. So having someone read it and give me notes on it, just rehashes all those habits I have.
Gotta love fresh eyes, Kathy! They can see things you don't. And even things that your normal crit partners miss because they've been looking at it too long.
Renee-- *grin* Uhm, well. Mattycakes bought these glucosamine supplements and he took one out and it's the size of a horse pill. He held one up and arched an eyebrow and you can imagine where that went. Straight downhill.
I love in a critiquer when they can be straight forward. Don't beat around the bush. That wastes time. Pull your big girl panties up and take it with a grain of salt. You can't get better without critism. But sometimes it can be a double edged sword.
ARCHED an eyebrow? He didn't arch an eyebrow! He swaggered over to the couch and said, "Frannie" (he's like one of three people who gets away with that nickname, btw) "In all your experience with swallowing, have you ever swallowed anything this big?" Then he grinned like a deviant 8-year-old and held up a horse pill. I started laughing, then fell off the couch because Sin started screeching from upstairs: "Matty! Did you just say what I think you said!?!"
Oh, God, Sin, don't tell Matty you wrote your blog about thinking outside the "BOX", then used the phrase "beating around the bush"--you will NEVER hear the end of it.
hehehe...that is so something my dad would ask. He once greeted one of my friends (she'd never met him before) by holding out a box of chocolate covered cherries and asking if she'd like her cherry back. And that's one of the least offensive things he's done.
Love Sin's reaction. LOL! She should know you can defend yourself just fine. I would love to hear your comeback.
I have no doubt in her ability to put Matty in his place, but sometimes.. he just is so.. so.. *hm* aggravating?
And the arched eyebrow is from our conversation about the supplements and got quite a bit dirtier than your conversation. LOL
And speaking of mentioning the "box" tag, I told him last night that I was "finally" writing about him with the title of Writing Outside the "Box". He looked pretty darn proud of himself.
Of course he did. *LOL* And I'm sure he'd have gotten dirtier (I don't mean that the way that sounds), but between you scolding him and me laughing like a loon, he ended up (in 8 year old fashion) defending himself, "We were a LOT worse in Jack's office! This is nothing! Frannie's not offended, are you Frannie?"
Terrio-Would like to say yes about being successful in contests but can't. :D I've been pretty successful in my new parenting role and working for FanLib role though. I'm writing again, that's about all I can say so far.
Sin-You know me, I love pirates and pirate ships. I had to stow away once I found this place. I may know what I want in a crit group, but I'm afraid I may drive them crazy to the point that they make me walk the plank!!
Sarah
I feel like walking the plank every time I put my writing out there. Arrrr! Why is the rum always gone... :-)
All these comments are making me think. There are not many people I would want to see my writing. My sisters, Who shall be referred to as the Redheads, like different books than I do. One likes the paranormal romances that I do, but is more into Fantasy. The other likes mysteries. And some Sci-Fi. No Romance at all.
Would I want them to read my stuff? Good question. First I have to finish something. I get going on one, Life happens, I stop. But this one is really talking to me. Or should I say the Dragon is?
DJS- I'm one of those people who write something and it takes me forever to finish. Mostly because I'm never happy with anything I've written and always want to change it. But if they are your true friends, they'll want to read it. They won't be able to stop themselves once you allow them to get their hands on it.
I've met great people to critique my work, but the hindrance to forming a solid relationship is my own fault (shame on my acute form of procrastination). I'm actually rather unaffected by critiques. Sure, I cover my eyes when opening one, but when I gather enough courage to read it, I'm not really upset over what has been said about my work. I'm guessing it's because of my background as an artist (there's nothing like painting or sculpting a work of art and squirming silently in one's seat as an art teacher and the rest of class critique it as bluntly as they can).
Evangeline- Love your name.
So we both suffer from the procrastination gene. Sisters in Procrastination would make a great group if anyone could ever get around to making it. LOL
I can't imagine being an artist. I can't draw a stick figure. Let alone something that someone would actually want to look at.
Thanks for coming by!
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