The Rules of Copulation
**Gracing the decks once again, it's the lovely and talented and irrepressible J Perry Stone!**
So I’ve been having discussions of late on how to write a sex scene in such a way that it’s original, titillating and without a purple word/phrase in sight. Think this might be easy? Think again.
First of all, let me tackle the problem of originality. Let’s face it, there are only so many positions and some of the more “acrobatic” ones are those I would never try for fear my uterus might end up in my ear. Yes, that pretzel pose on page 35 of the Kama sutra is something I’ve never read in a romance before, but just because it’s new does not make it good. And then there’s the problem of tools. It’s like we’re all trying to describe that peg-in-the-hole exercise in gym class in unique terms, but there are only so many orifices on the human body, so many parts to put in them and so many ways to describe it all. It is what it is.
Which brings me to my second problem. Titillation. Get too creative with what you insert where—food included—and as a reader I start thinking about bathing issues, the problem honey presents when coupled with hair, and the morning after a particularly adventurous session. Urinary tract infection, anyone? Oh I know. In a romance, the author takes great care to speak to fantasy rather than reality, but for me to invest in a sex scene, I need to believe that scene has all the pleasure-potential possible. I can’t be thinking about UTI’s because the heroine forgot to wash and pee after having sex with Mr. Let’s Use-This-Cream-Syrup-And-Pudding-On-You. What’s more, I do not believe making love on a high wire with a woman’s ankles behind her head is the best possible position to achieve orgasm—not for her, not for me—so I’m not going to get all tingly inside when reading your novel: Big Top Love: Sex Without a Net.
Okay, so that leaves me with the various shades of purple. I have a naughty thesaurus listing phrases for multiple saucy things. Need another word for 
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146 comments:
Terri, I have warned about eating those raw cockles once before! :wink:
The following is from my WIP. Guaranteed original. :D
Their minds merged in an ecstasy of love, a mingling of soul and spirit that transcended even the delights of physical union. As they kissed the night away exchanging beautiful thoughts, their longing for a physical merging grew to unbearable proportions. Just as they felt that they could no longer desist, icy cold water flowed over them. Jack rolled away and felt herself falling. She was losing Harry again. “Harry, Harry my love don’t leave me” she shouted. A gentle hand touched her shoulder saying “Jack love, are you alright? I have brought some breakfast for you.” Granny helped her up from the floor of the bedroom and closed the window to shut out the cool breeze that was blowing off the sea.
Q, Jack was dreaming wasn't she?
That gets high marks on the originality!
Sitting this one out. :)I did read a book recently by an extremely prolific, long-time author that had one of the worst, most mechanical sex scenes I've ever read. It was as if she said, "Damn it. I've got to write another one." Baaad.
I totally forgot to put an intro for J Perry on here so I've added it now. I wish I could take credit for this one, Q, but all the blam...errr...credit goes to J Perry Stone. LOL!
I just sat down at my desk but I'll be back.
"irrepressible" Terri?
You know the saying: "birds of a feather..."??
I was trying to think of something that summed you up and that I could spell without looking anything up. LOL! That wasn't easy this early in the morning. And I still spelled it wrong!!!
Bah!
Have I mentioned I hate this dang program? I tried to edit one little thing and it threw the entire blog out of whack. Gah! I give up!
I logged on earlier before the correction was made and knew it was J Perry! What does that say! LOL
I'm right there with you, J Perry! I don't think "oooh that's sexy". I think "eewww that's gotta be uncomfortable"!
I've been noticing a trend lately - most of the graphic sex scenes in the books I'm reading are diminishing with more time spent on the leading up to "the act" and afterglow. It's a trend I like a lot. I'm not into the whole gymnastics of the event. I like to know more of what's going on with the H/H emotions.
I read a book recently where it was the heroine's first time and even though she had a great experience the author still dealt with common issues - When she got home she told her girlfriend she was going to soak in a hot tub cause she was a little sore. A couple of scenes later she showed up at the guy's house cause she just wanted to be close to him, but told him no touchy she wasn't healed yet. All of those scenes afterwards felt more intimate to me than the act itself.
And Q is wicked for posting sex early in the morning before I can get my horomones into check.
Wicked man.
*muttering*
We need to get JP her own blog handle poster under thingy.
I'm not much on reading the sex scenes. About 95% of the time I skip the secondary sex scenes after the first time the H/H hook up. I enjoy writing it *shrugs* Sex is sex is sex; but after you read so many sex scenes in a romance novel they all begin to bleed together.
And I know someone is going to say something about the icy water and that doesn't matter. Sometimes you gotta get a little kink in there. LOL
Gee, Sin, I've been reading romance for *cough* years and I still read all the scenes. What does that say about me? Though I think every sex scene should have a purpose and tell the reader something so for me, skipping them would be the same as skipping any other critical scene. If you're reading something and the sex scene is unnecessary, I'd say the scene shouldn't have been included anyway.
The last book I finished had the couple doing it in the shower and at the end they both fall and he lands on his ass. Which ends up terribly bruised, of course. I thought it was a fun way to show you can have sex in the shower, but it's not always that easy. LOL!
As for titillation, again for me it's the emotion. If the hero is really driving the heroine crazy to the point of clawing the sheets, and the author writes it well enough that I am truly in her head and body, then it's titillating. But describing the mechanics is all external, not what's going on internally.
The bottom line is the most important sex organ on a woman is her mind. Focus your sex scenes there, and the rest should fall into place.
Terri, you're saying what I'm saying and you beat me to the post!
Great minds ...
Sorry to put you out, Terri. But I'm laughing because I too choose words based on my ability to spell them. And you're right; that word does fit.
Irish! How did you know? It could have been Terri. She says whatever's on her mind, as well.
But I'm with you. I like that trend of more time spent on the lead up and afterglow. What confuses me, however, is when I hear authors saying that publishers want things hotter and hotter. How are we supposed to know which way to go? If you and I like the stuff the sex represents, why should we add more sex scenes.
Sin, if you do get me my own handle/blog thingy, it has to be very user-friendly.
And I hear you on the secondary scenes. I skip them too ... unless there is some emotion at stake.
That's my requirement. It can't be just sex for sex's sake. There has to be an emotional component for me to be interested in reading/writing it. As I said to Irish, the sex has to represent something other than just the physical, otherwise I'm bored.
The hero and heroine can have sex faily early on in a book--as long as sufficient sexual tension has been built up--but the subsequent scenes need to show some emotional growth.
Exactly, Terri. Titillation is when I'm involved. If you've struck an emotional chord with me, I'm there.
The other thing I wanted to say about that is how difficult it might be to tread the fine line between titillating and repelling. To be honest, I don't mind a little flirting with the kinky .... but do too much so that I'm out of my sexual comfort zone, and you've lost me.
So how're we supposed to know what the line is for our readers?
BTW - Sin, there was supposed to be an LOL in there. I really wonder what that says about me! :)
Irish - I've notice some books that really ramp up the foreplay and I think that is cool. But if it stops there and jumps to the afterglow, I don't like that. I listened to a Susan Wiggs and that's what she does. I was driving along, getting all into the foreplay, then it was over. I about drove off the road! That was just wrong. LOL!
J - doo doo doo doo
I don't think there is a way to know where the line is for our readers. The point is to write a book you'd want to read. You write to your own line, and the reader can choose for her (him) self. I can't write every scene wondering what the reader will think. I can only write scened I like and am proud of. The rest you just can't worry about.
But I wanna read Big Top Love: Sex Without a Net. Actually I made that up, but it's super fun to say;) I give an author the most cred when she can make the characters do something I never even thought to make my characters do, and still manage to make it erotic.
Sex when the woman has her period? I couldn't write it to save my life, but I've read it done so well that I had to crack a window.
Ultimately, I think it's what you do with the mind rather than the body that truly gets readers off. There's no way to get around the limited number of orifices and things to stick in them, but the number of different ways you can create a character's headspace during sex is infinite. Which is exactly what people have said above, and so much better, but I'm just adding, "Yep."
A final thing that I think anyone has to realize when writing sex is that you just can't please (*snort*) everyone. Some people enjoy reading incredibly graphic sex (I'm not one of them), while others like their smut a touch more subtle. Bottom line is again what you said -- if you take the reader there, you're covered. Why does this damn subject create so many automatic bad puns?
Very true. It takes a certain un-self-consciousness to write a sex scene well. You can't think about your mom reading it. You can't think about Bubba on death row reading it. You have to write it so that YOU want to read it.
And, because sex is universal, chances are someone is like you and is going to be affected by it.
My darling Leigh, (guys, I've known Leigh since we were practically babies)
I agree. For a woman, it's all about the head-space. A woman's sexuality is a very complicated thing. She has to safe and aroused and in a good mental space for it all to go well.
Because of such, I think sex is a very important component to romantic relationships, for both parties.
Cont'd .... (I hit submit before I was done)
So I think sex is an extremely valid topic/writing endeavor because it represents that sort of intimacy.
What's more, think about what we've all said (Q, we're waiting for the man's opinion here): it's a mental experience in physical form. If, as writers, we strike an emotional chord with our readers, they're with us for the ride.
So really, the difficulty is not writing the sex scene itself; it's if we've done our job correctly in that the reader is emotionally invested.
I'm repeating myself, aren't I?
I checked in early this morning too, and, like Irish, I knew the blogger was J. All of you have distinctive voices.
I admit I skip a lot of sex scenes. I've read it all before--time and time again. One of my pet peeves is the scene that seems to occur because the writer feels obligated to insert a sex scene. Elizabeth Hoyt is a good example of a "hot" writer whose sex scenes are integral to her characterization. I don't skip her scenes. Julie Ann Long's last two books have been particularly effective in this area IMO. And I always look forward to the innovative settings EJ uses. :)
As for writing these scenes, I find I do better if I just write the scene without worrying if it's hot enough. I don't want to turn into one of those writers I'm always complaining about.
Q-great scene! You really had me going, and then such an ending! nice.
I usually read all of the scenes in a book. I figure , if the author took the time to put the scene in, then it must be important. As for sex scenes, I love reading realistic sex scenes. One of my all time faves is from PFP, when Josie realizes that sex hurts....a lot. That cracks me up every time.
As for titillation, I love it. But like Terri, I hate reading a ton of foreplay and all of a sudden, h/h are snuggling in the afterglow. That's like eating an appetizer and dessert, but where the heck is the meal?!?
And J, I totally agree with you on the whole food aspect. I remember reading a sex scene where the hero put grapes into the heroine and thinking, "what if he misses one? Do you birth grapes? How do you get rid of it?" It just don't make no sense.
D
Janga said: "Elizabeth Hoyt is a good example of a “hot” writer whose sex scenes are integral to her characterization. I don’t skip her scenes."
Leave it to you, Janga, to write in one sentence something I took 4 posts to express.
I'm right there with you on that score, Ter. I'm not a fan of the foreplay and afterglow with no climax so to speak! I just don't want the foreplay and afterglow to be a paragraph while they spend 10 pages re-enacting chapters 4-7 of their favorite sex manual!
It's frustrating trying to find that balance when what I want to read is not what the publishers are wanting to publish! Maybe it's changing though, since I do seem to be finding the kind of books I like more and more lately.
I think you pretty much nailed it *pun intended* in your last couple of comments - The most important sex organ in a woman is her brain - focus there. And write what you are proud of and what you feel you need to write.
Janga - I'm ashamed to say though I've heard so much great stuff about Elizabeth's books, I've yet to read them. And you're right about writing it without thinking too hard about hotness. It's all about motivation and intention. If you write the scene with the intention of having it fit the story and the characters and progress the story, then it'll be good. If you write the scene with the intention of just writing a hot sex scene, then you've missed the point.
Irish - It seems today the most popular selling books are either really hot, or less hot and more characters. I have no idea what that means for the future, but I'd say books with less focus on the sexual act are gaining popularity.
Terri said: "It seems today the most popular selling books are either really hot, or less hot and more characters."
What does this say about us readers? We're either horny or have short attention-spans???
ROTFLMAO!!!!!
And let me just say this now before I forget...
Terri, I cannot believe you chose the bear-shaped honey bottle for the picture.
Me too, Irish. ME TOO!
*#@$%^ There's that trigger finger again - I hit submit before I was done!*
Depending on when you catch me it can be horny, short attention span or both!!!!
I was going to say it says most readers are either in their 20s and horny or over 50 and more interested in emotion and story. LOL! Those of us in between don't have much time to be picky!
Though your explanation has merit. But I think the existence of these stories means we're just starved for all of it.
The honey-bear is cute!!! And he has the spout that I thought worked well with your example. LOL!
To clarify - NOT to suggest that women in their 20s can't be interested in story or that women over 50 can't be horny. Or that either aren't busy.
Just a general observation. :)
It's a BEAR, Terri. My daughter sleeps with a bear. And given what we're talking about here today, I will never be able to buy that honey bear again, you know that?
Sure you will. You just might not keep him in the kitchen. ;)
"She has to safe and aroused and in a good mental space for it all to go well" - brilliant. I have to agree it's the emotion that makes sex scenes work for me. Though I've recently been purposely writing bad sex...odd.
For me, I usually love the first sex scene in a book, when all that tension is finally resolved, and it's super emotional. If there's more later, which aren't emotional, I skim.
I think we need to make a distinction between Historicals and Contemps. For an Historical, the first sex scene is usually about the emotion when they finally give in and it's often the first time for one or both.
For me, in Contemps the first time is usually about giving into the tension and is mostly physical. It's them having sex, though usually still very satisfying and titillating if done right. But the later sex scenes build toward something more until it changes over to making love. I've said it before, there's a major difference between having sex and making love.
Let me just say, I grant Q the golden courage cojones award. No body else posted a scene from their favorite book, much less their own WIP.
Go Q.
And what'd I miss? Raw cockles are like Spanish fly?
Hal, why are you writing bad sex? I bet you're the only one who thinks so.
Terri, do you think it's possible to write a contemp scene with the same rules one goes at the historical (but using different language, of course)? Would it work? Because I'm thinking, what is it about the historical sex that I like so much given that I live in modern times?????
I never skip sex scenes unless the writer is bad at writing sex scenes; and if she is, I will probably quit reading her book and never bother with her again. (Not to say that sex scenes are that important; I'm just saying sex scenes are emotional--and you have to be emotionally involved with the characters you're reading about. If the sex scene is "bad", it's usually because the author has not done a good enough job making me care about her characters or making me believe in her characters. So it's more a writing problem than a sex problem.)
The only sex scene I skipped was in a book that I forced myself to finish, but I couldn't stand the book because the characters were so wooden. I couldn't believe they had the hots for each other at all. They had all the chemistry of...baking soda and water. Rather than baking soda and vinegar. Nothing. But because I'd bought it as a conference and this lady was expecting me to finish it...ugh.
Normally though if the characters are that bad, I just stop reading. Life is way too short to keep reading badly written books. Find a different one that makes you happy.
I like the more conventional sex acts, I admit. *LOL* No trapeze stuff for me. Books that include them seem like they are trying too hard. Though I have read "hotter" books of late, and it's getting more and more commonplace for H/H to engage in doggie-style, oral, and girl on top stuff...and in the olden days, it did seem like most of the sex was occuring the old Missionary Way. Oh, and if you pick up an EJ book, of course, you're doing all this outside.
Hellion - Do you think it's possible that an author can write a damn good story where you care about the characters and the sex scenes are still bad? I can't think of one, but I did read one like what you're talking about. I put a book down (threw it really) after the first sex scene because the author obviously had no idea who these characters were and the sex scene and subsequent reactions to it were the final straw for me.
"but even conventional sex is like watching lawn grow if there is no emotional component," - LAMO!!!
Oh, I don't mean I'm writing it poorly, I mean I'm purposely writing sex that is terrible for the characters :) This week I wrote two sex scenes, with three different characters, and only one has managed to have an orgasm (and surprise, it wasn't the guy! *g*)
And I have to disagree, Terri. I've read contempts where the the first sex scene is all about deep, deep emotions, and as they progress through the book, become more like sex than making love. I have also read contempts that use the progression you mentioned (and I think you're right that they're probably more common), but it doesn't have to be done that way, and personally, I like it better when it starts super-emotional.
"baking soda and water", Hellion? You know that's actually a recipe that helps get rid of UTI's.
You also said: "Life is way too short to keep reading badly written books." Here here saith I the reader... but what a completely different attitude I get when looking at this from a writer's point of view. It scares me that readers are so smart and intolerant because I'm a beginner.
I like conventional sex too ... but even conventional sex is like watching lawn grow if there is no emotional component, as you've already said so eloquently.
And uh, you think doggie was considered unconventional? When I think about doggie style, I think it's a position that only works in a secondary sex scene. Can you imagine an Historical where the heroine lost her virginity doggie style? Oh no, no, no! I think that hero might be irredeemable ... unless it were a situation where the hero didn't know she was a virgin, mistook her for a prostitute, and was well in his cups. But he'd have to pay for that one and well.
But doggie as a third sex scene? Woo hoo.
J - I don't think so, but the reason is purely my own take on things. There is a lack of knowledge and experience that comes with most first sex scenes in an Historical. Not all, but most IMO. So the act is a discovery and it takes courage and lots of trust and soothing to ease into it and make it really good.
I don't buy this kind of lack of knowledge and experience in Contemps. But again, that's just me. I know some authors, probably lots of Contemp authors, write virgin heroines. But I don't buy it. In the rare case that there is a traumatic reason for the heroine's reactions or lack of experience then I can believe it. But I just don't buy a 28 yr old virgin. Not in these times. Again, that's just me.
So I think if you have late 20-something or 30-somethings dating and turning into a relationship, then they are both going to have some kind of experience going in. And they are likely to have sex sooner and they usually won't have the "sex means marriage" thought thing going on.
In my experience and in most of the people I know, sex is part of dating. It just is. Again, this is solely my own opinion.
Hal - Good point. See, this is where personal taste comes into play. As much as we all read, we can't possible read everything out there. I can only give opinions on what I read which is less than it used to be and of course, the kind of books I like.
I didn't mean to imply it always happens this way, but if we looked at Romance in general over the last couple decades, I'd say this is my experience in reading.
J--I'm channeling my Puritan roots, I was suggesting anything other than missionary was "unconventional". Now in the olden days, after the first Missionary scene, they usually moved on and put the girl on top...or had sex on a horse or something...and honest to God, I don't remember reading near the amount of oral sex that shows up in novels now. I mean, it seems so standard now, it's practically a first date hello.
*pause* I suppose that would be quite a hello. Never mind.
Anyway...things have changed. That's all. For the better. I'm all for the doggie style and the oral hellos...whatever...
LOL! I have noticed that. I think it used to be very rare to find a facegod hero, now they're everywhere!
Not that I'm complaining....
"In my experience and in most of the people I know, sex is part of dating. It just is. Again, this is solely my own opinion."--
Indeed it is your own opinion. As we argue time and again, Ter, not everyone was raised like you. Some of us were raised by tight-assed weird people and were warped as children. Not everyone has fathers who make jokes about our sex lives.
Well, they didn't where I lived.
*pause* I suppose that would be quite a hello. Never mind.
hahahaha, Hellion! And let me tell you something; you and I have MANY Puritan roots in common, believe me. (We'll talk later 'bout this;)
Hal? You make a good point. Actually, I've read both the sorts that you and Terri describe. I, think, however, that I prefer Terri's way because it extends the tension. If it becomes more "sexy time" by the end, where is the conflict? The suspense?
But I didn't grow up in a bubble and I've lived in 5 states. I've met and known and talked to MANY people of my generation, and I'm telling you, people have sex. Without the ring and sometimes without the relationship.
"Some of us were raised by tight-assed weird people and were warped as children." - amen sister. It must have been something about growing up in Missouri. If I even thought the word sex I assumed I'd die a fiery death involving copious amounts of brimstone :)
Ter - you're absolutely right. I don't read a lot of straight contemps (mostly romantic suspense), but the straight contemps I have read have gone through exactly the progression you mentioned, with sex as a normal part of dating. Just trying to make the point that it doesn't *have* to be done that way. (which really, is what I love about writing - nothing *has* to be done any certain way, except maybe putting words on paper.)
This is so totally funny to me because my experience is so totally the opposite of Terri's! I get really frustrated with all the contemporary heroines who have not only been around the block a time or two but have been around the whole freakin' city and all neighboring counties too!
Now I'll grant you that I'm getting on in years so the generation out there dating now is a bit different than what I experienced. Coupled with the fact that I was a little on the repressed side! But even given that - I still think you've got a lot of inexperienced virgins floating around out there. More so than any current romance novel would lead you to believe. The inexperienced non virgins would probably be more the norm. They dipped their toes in the sex pool and aren't too willing to go for another swim so to speak! Especially if they went swimming with John Q. High School who is more interested in quantity than quality! *okay no more water metaphors - I promise*
J - excellent point. The more I think about it, the more I realize the ones I'm talking about are romantic suspense, so there's a whole villain/bad guy/we're all about to die plot that take care of the suspense toward the end, therefore making getting the sexual tension out of the way earlier a bit of a necessity.
(though I've been thinking about a new RS that uses more Ter's progression, where sex is just plain sex at the beginning, and doesn't grow to be super emotional until the end....hmmmm......this is making my head whirl with ideas).
"If I even thought the word sex I assumed I’d die a fiery death involving copious amounts of brimstone"--
WERE we separated at BIRTH?
"The inexperienced non virgins would probably be more the norm. They dipped their toes in the sex pool and aren’t too willing to go for another swim so to speak! Especially if they went swimming with John Q. High School who is more interested in quantity than quality!"--
I would so totally agree with this assessment! *LOL* Great metaphor! And I love the "I'm tired of heroines who've been around the whole city and neighboring counties"--I'm tired of that too. *LOL*
I'm with Hellion, Hal and J Perry! I was convinced it wasn't even okay after the ring went on the finger!
LOL! we might have been :)
OMG there are about 8-9 posts that popped in before mine! LOL
Exactly. It was okay to have sex after you were married, but you weren't really allowed to enjoy it. (And I think my mother snorted a time or two with the suggestion, "As if it could be enjoyable" so...I mean, I don't think sex was all it was cracked up to be for my mother.)
I'm certainly not trying to say every Contemp heroine has done entire football teams. But even if she's only been with two guys, she's had sex. And even if she hasn't had sex, it's different from Historicals because she's probably talked to her friends about sex and knows how everything works and where it goes. I can't believe a woman who has been out of college for X number of years still doesn't know where things go!
Now I'm going to get arrested for sure. I read this in a public place and burst out laughing like a rum-soaked mental case (fruitcake).
God help me, but the truth is always funny.
Yay, Anna's here! The truth IS funny, isn't it??
Dude, I don't talk about sex with my girlfriends. I'm not kidding. I've talked about it with you--in emails--but I've known you like, what, two, three years? I did not know you in my 20s. I did not talk about sex with my friends in my 20s. We did not have that kind of relationship.
And you can know where things go--and not know how they work "properly"--I mean, if you have a less than enjoyable experience, you don't exactly want to bring it up to your friends because you're afraid your friends will only confirm that you're broken, defective, and just plain sad. Plus if your friends were like mine--who married childhood sweethearts and didn't have sex with anyone other htan their husbands--talking about "casual sex" with them is a foreign concept so you're even less likely to share this information. They can't help you.
Amen, sister!
We didn't talk about sex! We joked about it and snickered and made "all-knowing" comments when we were in groups. But heart to heart, there's something not working here talks - no, didn't happen. And I believe a lot of girls suffered in silence because of it.
Robyn Carr has a virginal heroine in Temptation Ridge, and I found the character completely credible because her circumstances explain her lack of experience and she's not ignorant about her sexuality. It is the ignorant heroine in a contemporary that makes me want to scream.
And, Terri, I'm glad you qualified that over-fifty statement. I didn't want to resort to the old fire-in-the-kitchen truism. :)
Here's what I'm thinking, Ter, Hellion and Irish. Everyone approaches sex (in books, as well) from their own experience, then projects that experience onto the world.
It might be more difficult for some at one extreme to see the other's pov.
I seem to straddle both extremes. I grew up in a VERY strict environment (ask Leigh), but had parents who kept the lines of communication open. That's how I approach the world. I say anything. I think anything can be said (if you have a kind heart).
So I think there's room for both sorts of experiences. There is the modern heroine who comes to sex as a complete novice, as well as the heroine who, though she may be inexperienced, knows a helluva lot more than her historical counterpart. I do think, however, that more times than not, especially with the internet at our fingertips, the ins and outs (ha) of sex are more available to us as women. What we can't say to our friends, partners or families is still available to us in on-line resources.
Wondering what you need to achieve orgasm? The sometimes blessed anonymity of the internet is there for you.
But so too do I think that there are women out there (heroines included) who do not have the mental support to even bring themselves to doing a Google search.
Trying to be diplomatic. How'd I do?
Janga said: "I found the character completely credible because her circumstances explain her lack of experience and she’s not ignorant about her sexuality. It is the ignorant heroine in a contemporary that makes me want to scream."
Dammit, Janga. Again with the few sentences expressing what I did in book-length!
I'm amazed at the paucity of female conversation. My friends and I talked--a lot and sometimes in great detail. Maybe the difference is that I came of age in the 60s.
No, I totally agree, J, that we bring our own experiences to books; and therefore, what we believe could happen (our personal frame of reference) affects our "enjoyment" (if you will) of the book. Our POV can definitely get in the way of believing someone else's, even a book's.
I gotta stop sleepin' in...
Ya think dogs find doggie position kinky? ;)
I'm so totally overwhelmed and thirsy at this discussion, glittery hoohas for all! Maybe a virgin glittery hooha fer me since I haven't had breakfast first... Ooops! Empty glass!
Janga - I read historicals but the totally ignorant heroine drives me batty. Especially when there are sisters around to inform... I know, I know! It's the era, but I swear...if I were Josie I'd have locked my sisters in a room and not let them out until they'd told me more!
Was it only the upper class that kept the women so completely ignorant? While the lower class was doing the tango left and right? At least ya don't gets that much in the contemps!
Personal POV certainly plays a part in writing sex, but not necessarily personal experience. I was one a those not-until-I-married ladies and now I like ta write the more the merrier.
Though not entire city blocks of partners, not to worry... I gotta dig up one of my alien sex scenes to post...
"If you take the spice out of the dressing, it’s just spice in all its obvious form. Put it back into the dressing and it’s a glorious culinary experience. "
-- yes, but if you take it out and put it back in, and then take it out and put it back in - in rapid succession - and add some nuts to that dressing -- then you got something happening there ...
Oh! Gauston! That deserves a special drink... Spiced Dressing? Though once puts the rum in ya can't take it outs again...
"I’m amazed at the paucity of female conversation. My friends and I talked–a lot and sometimes in great detail. Maybe the difference is that I came of age in the 60s."--
I think our "paucity" stems from the friends I'd have this conversation with are married to childhood sweethearts. We know them well. It's too much like "kissing and telling" rather than talking hypothetically, you know? So if my girlfriend said, "I don't enjoy this...or so...", we'd all be going, "God, David really sucks in bed." and at the next happy hour, you're thinking as he tells a joke, "He really sucks in bed." Which is hard if you're also friends with David, you know?
However, I have had BRIEF discussions with my childhood sweetheart married friend who made a minor complaint that sex in the shower wasn't very feasible because he couldn't pick her up (i.e. slippery when wet) and I said (though at this point I'd never had sex in a shower): "Why don't you turn around and bend over?"--and she blinked at me in such a way that I realized that solution had not occured to her. Or, more surprisingly, to HIM. I mean, I could get why it didn't occur to her, I guess, but why didn't he try it? And that did lead to a discussion of face-to-face versus back-to-face and intimacy, etc, so I could understand why that was not the obvious solution.
This convo lasted about 10 minutes...and that's basically the bulk of my girlfriend discussions of sex, right there.
Gauston! I should have known such dirty thoughts swirled around in that brain of yours.
hahahahahaha!
Or were you actually talking about food? Because I'm with you there, as well.
Janga, it's true. If we can't be free to speak of such things with our women friends, then there's no freedom. My husband once told me, "I think the happiest men are those whose wives have lots of girlfriends."
Hellion, it's true. My POV limits me all the time. For example, I don't get subtlety. I don't know how to write it and I don't know how to be it. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate it ... it's just outside of MY frame of reference.
Chance is drunk again ... and talking about dogs and aliens! :)
But there is a difference between book and life. You're so right about that, Chance.
Aye, well...I haven't had breakfast yet. The drink goes straight ta me tongue...
I would bet life influences what ya like ta read. Either because ya didn't get that and ya wish ya had. Or ya didn't get that and yer glad ya didn't. P'raps same goes fer writing.
Ya can always tell when the editor demands more sex and the author ain't in love wit' the idea.
Aye, but writes it anyway.
BTW, can I get that list fer 'nubbin'?
I totally agree with your husband's statement. Because girlfriends LISTEN and they will listen to EVERYTHING you say as if it was information being handed down by the Pope important. Girlfriends will let you vent for hours and not offer solutions like, "Well, just find a new job then" or "Get a different friend"--but will nod and know that you're not going to do crap about the job or friend, you just needed to bitch incessantly about it. Anyway, once we get all that talking, discussing, dissecting, and analyzing over with, we can go home and just have short and productive convos with the hubby...and the hubby doesn't get in trouble for only half-listening.
I think it's win-win. Stick to the strengths of people you're working with.
Is this where I should admit that I've even discussed the topic of sex with J's DH? Though it's her fault since she demanding we get his take on the point we were debating.
Janga - Thank you for saying what I failed to say. The ignorant heroines in Contemps are the ones that bother me. And that can be ignorant about many things, sex being just one of them.
For the record, I stayed a virgin until the ripe old age of 22, but I still knew pretty much all I needed to know so as the whole event wasn't a mystery.
And that was with 12 years Catholic education. Just sayin'...I didn't grow up a total heathen.
Damn, the blog exploded this afternoon. There were 11 comments this morning!
I lurve sex scenes when they are done right.
Mine are too long to share, I've been known to go on for a good 10-15 pages, but they are jam pack full of emotion and probably some purple, but if you don't read them, you will miss something. Maybe that's the key, who knows.
fun blog.
“I’m amazed at the paucity of female conversation. My friends and I talked–a lot and sometimes in great detail. Maybe the difference is that I came of age in the 60s.”–
Okay, Janga, I had to look up paucity! LOL
I think the paucity in my case was 100% totally me! I didn't want anyone knowing I was ignorant. I also think Hellion's "everyone knows everyone" theory probably played into it a lot to, added to the fact that my girl friendships were pretty superficial. The friendships I have now in my life are a lot more substantial than the ones I had when I was younger.
WOW! It's been a rough morning and I get here and there are 89 comments! That's insane! :)
I'm a skim-without-emotional-component reader. If there isn't any emotional investment it's just like a fight scene to me, lots of action, no involvement.
I was reading sex/kiss/physical scenes I've written but without context they sound, well, cheesy. In an effort not to sound cheesy I'll refrain.
So okay Julianne, I’m being serious first
Irish, you are right when you say “ i still think you’ve got a lot of inexperienced virgins floating around out there. More so than any current romance novel would lead you to believe.” And yes , I believe that there are a lot of “The inexperienced non virgins” out there too.. it isn’t just about the ring thing. Young people are leery of what they’ve seen their friends go through because of sex.
Over the years I’ve spent a lot of time talking to young people about the challenges in their lives. The “appropriateness” of sex in a relationship often comes up in the conversations. . You’d be surprised, but most teens and young people in their late twenties early thirties realize that sex gets in the way of a relationship’s development. How do you know that you will like the real person if you’re all caught up in a person’s physical presence? You don’t. It has been my experience that most young people look at sex for what it is . Just Sex. And not necessarily part of dating. And certainty not a part of a casual relationship. Even the twenty-something year old testosterone laden men I’ve talked to are leery of causal sex. Its not about the STDs. Its about caring that someone could get hurt. There could be a pregnancy…. A miscarriage … an abortion …. Most young people know someone who got ‘burned’ in a relationship because sex interfered with that relationships natural course of growth. Just the other night I got a call from my son . he asked me to talk to a friend of his. The man was single, successful. A doctoral candidate who is doing advanced scientific research . But all that knowledge, all of that learning didn’t help him when it came to sex & how it can … quite literally … screw up people’s lives. A friend’s life. We talked. For a long time. All I will say is … don’t be afraid to write about young people being responsible with their sexuality. Despite popular beliefs , most of them are not out there having indiscriminate sex. Or even causal sex. Simply because they’ve seen the sad … often times tragic …results of such behavior.
“So how’re we supposed to know what the line is for our readers?”
Every reader, like every person, is different when it comes to what constitutes “crossing a line”. Write what feels right to you. Then keep in mind that some readers will find your work titillating. While others might find it repulsive.
Here are some of my requirements.
YES too
1.Don’t cross the fine line between titillating and repelling or cruel. I really hate cruel.
2.flirt with the kinky …. but do not write out of your sexual comfort zone . I can tell if you think something is “ICKY”!
3.Strike an emotional chord with you reader.
4.Don’t write a sex for sex’s sake scene.
5.Be creative. But Don’t be Ridiculous!
Julie - hear hear! Well said.
Marnee Jo
The reason why i blog is to keep my mind sharp for phone calls like that one.
That is heartbreaking. I hope he is ok and that things work out for him in the end.
And finally: NO. I do not talk about my sex life. I mean really. Who has time … with all of that sex I’m busy HAVING! :)
"And finally: NO. I do not talk about my sex life. I mean really. Who has time … with all of that sex I’m busy HAVING!"
*ROTFLMAO* Here, here!
Its surprising how Hard the men take things. How deeply they feel about trying to fix things that are not their problem to fix.
In this young man's case I gave him a mission. Something positive that he could do to help him feel better about the things that are out of his control. According to my son …. What ever I said … worked.
Here, here! There, There! As long as the kids don't catch us its all Good1
thats "Good!" !!!!!!! jeez. Why can't this keyboard read my mind?
Jules, totally agree. I think everybody needs to take responsibility for their sexuality/sexual behavior ... whether that means behaving responsibly or simply taking care of your own needs by communicating what you like, etc.
And i don't like cruel either. I think your list sums up our entire conversation quite nicely (and I hope you don't have worse headache after reading all these posts).
Okay ladies, but I want to talk about purple sex. I cut my teeth on the purple shades of sex with Kathleen E Woodiwiss. Every time the heroine had an orgasm, there was always some celestial metaphor to go with it, i.e.,
She threw her had back and the stars in heaven burst in a millions sparks, blah, blah, blah. (mine, not KEW's but in her style).
I liked those scenes, read every word when i was younger, but now find myself skimming over the more flowery descriptions when I come upon them.
How about you?
Yeah, J, I had the Barbara Carland "Scenes" which were always the last page, and very purply and VAGUE...and always "shattering into a million little stars"--and depending on the writer and the scene now I will skim that. Or at the very least, roll my eyes so hard I'm in danger of having the whites of my eyes permanently showing.
I think it might depend how much further beyond the "shattering sentence" they go. If they prose on it in equally florid, flowery language for another couple paragraphs, I'll groan like mad. Yuck.
I like it when contemporary books try to shoot for a more modern metaphor. Like a sort: "She hadn't felt this euphoric since she found that Calvin Klein shirt on the sales rack for 90% off."
Hahaha, Hellion.
But you know, 90% off IS a big damn deal!!!
There's purple, like you guys are talking, then there's stuff that turns purple when taken out of context. I've found that stuff that sounds just fine in my head while I'm reading, sounds really weird said aloud. Especially when a book is turned into a movie.
You mean like, "The lion and lamb together" or "You're my favorite brand of heroin"? That sort of purple?
It depends on the shirt, Hellion.
Exactly, Terri. That's what I was trying to say in the my post (but you said better).
I think if you describe the success of the sexual act in terms of a celestial event, you run the risk of purple.
I think if you take ANYBODY'S sex scene out of context, someone's going to snicker at it.
I have to say, I got really scared when I just read this: "then there’s stuff that turns purple..." but that's only because I took it out of context ;)
"But you know, 90% off IS a big damn deal!!!"--
Yeah, well, so's an orgasm.
And I tried to find a little bit of my work to post, but nothing seemed appropriate. :)
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
LOL! I was thinking of the Nora Roberts movies starting on Lifetime this weekend, but that movie is a prime example as well.
When I worked in radio, I used to read while the songs played. Not always easy to hop on the air in a split second when you're reading a *really* good sex scene. If people really know what to listen for, they probably could have known by my voice what I was reading. :)
Anyway, the news guy walked in one day, picked up my book, flipped it open and just started reading aloud. Let me tell you, any sentence with the word "manhood" in it sounds much better in your head. LOL!
Since when do we think about 'appropriate'?
I'm shattered!
An orgasm as good as the $120 dress at Macys I got for $9! That would be tough to write...
Its taken me half an hour to read through all these eye opening posts. :shock:
J Perry , my humble apologies for not recognising your voice! I thought Terri sounded a bit different but attributed it to eating aphrodisiac shell fish. :?
Yes my snippet described a dream. I thought it safest to dream about this topic, knowing that Sin would be watching! *grin*
I will display the courage cojones award near my internet computer....my very first writing prize...I feel so proud. 8)
Diana Glad you liked my snippet! I was expecting to get the low down on all the juicy bits from every ones WIPs but they all seem to have become overly modest.
I think that this blog may have broken the record for the number of posts.
May I welcome J Perry as the latest member of the CENTURION CLUB.
Please raise your glasses for a celebratory toast.
Here is to J Perry an author so bold
Her writing so stimulates its hard to keep hold
So hold tight to those glasses and all give a cheer
J Perry wins my award for Centurion of the year
Bottoms up and down the hatch
Also depends on the orgasm.
I just want to add that as soon as I read this blog I predicted we would top 100 comments. So here's my I-told-you-so.
Q - I'm not big on shell fish, aphrodisiac or not.
Chance - I don't see ya posting anything either! LOL!
Brat! Fine, let me go get a scene from The Alien Library...
Tendar is the alien. Daniel is the human doctor and Cameron is the human woman who will be the librarian...
I warned ya!
Tendar whispered to Daniel, “She is tiny. Tight…”
“She’ll stretch, women stretch,” he answered the worry. “You know that. You will not hurt her.”
“Be first, Daniel. Share me with her, first,” Tendar wrapped his hand around Daniel’s cock, simulating Cameron as his fingers flowed together into a warm, wet, flesh filled delight.
Daniel crooned, “If…if she will…trust me! Ah!”
Tendar melded himself to Daniel’s back, arms cradling the smaller human. His genital sack filled with blood to tease and taunt Daniel’s every nuance of desire. It squeezed, grew turgid, pumped, sucked, licked and carried the human doctor past the point of cognitive thought for the rest of the night. Daniel agreed to anything Tendar wanted in the end, aware of the hazards but fully in love with the challenge.
Sex is to conversation what Q says shellfish is to sex, eh Terri?
Hey, do I get that list of words for 'nubbin'? :)
Q, you wrote me a toast!!! Oh, thank you! Can I be in charge of the maniple now? ;) (Couldn't resist that word)
So I want to make a distinction, Hellion, Irish and Julie, between the sex in a book and sex in real life actual.
Are there virgins out there today? Absolutely, but if we're talking about a romance novel, I think Terri is right in that sex is certainly going to be a part of the equation. It sorta has to be. I just think Terri was, in fact, only talking about sex in books to begin with.
As for real life, there is every experience under the sun. There are young novices and those youth who have damn doctoral in the act.
I think the important thing in both, however is staying true to character--whether that means characters in your book, or your own character.
As for you, Chance, HOLY CRAP!
Suddenly, I'm feeling shy and tingly all at once!
*blushing
Ya think the difference between sex and erotica... Let me see if I can phrase this right, part of a discussion begun last week... So...sex without the delight of emotional involvement is erotica, delightful hopefully. Or at least not a deep romantic emotional involvement. But can one come to it in time?
You know me, I get all anal about the difference. (No pun intended...)
And sex with emotional involvement is erotic romance?
I'm not sure, Chance. I think in the market today, the difference might lie in the involvement of a few key elements.
three-ways = erotica, but there also might be a lot of emotional growth for the main character in terms of who they are sexually within that scenario.
That's a tough one.
I didn't help, did I?
Sorta confirmed a suspicion of mine! I read Emma Holly's erotica and it seems so romantic to me...but who the hell knows anymore?!
Granted, I like a good stew. No, I love a good stew... Hmmm. Maybe dinner tonight...
Come on, Terrio! I took up yer dare!
I KNEW I should have commented when at 37 comments and not over 100, lol!
Well, you've all said it better than I could ever had. I agree that sex for sex's sake and purply done makes me want to take a nap. I skim over the starburst orgasms.
Contemps with ignorant women are almost as annoying as comtemps with women who've been in every bed imaginable. Another skimmer for me.
And I know it's hard to come up with new ways to describe sex and such but it really bothers me when I've read a books by the same author and you can almost tell by the page number what act and in what detail is about to happen. I've left many an author behind because of this. Prolificacy (and, yes, I don't know if it's a word) does not necessarily equal an excellent author in my book.
There. I think I did it. Off to phase three of my day. I'll catch up at midnight when everyone else is asleep.
Excellent post, my dear. And excellent moderation of said post.
Santa, I love you far more than Santa Claus--and this from a person who is greedy and adores gifts.
Sorry, I was driving home and just got back to the computer. Alright, I'll find something give me a few minutes.
Thanks for the back up, J. Yes, I was talking about sexual content in books as I thought that was the topic. Books reflect the society in which they are set. A contemporary set in 2009 with a heroine of a certain age, and I'm not talking college age, is going to have some kind of sexual knowledge and experience different from a heroine in most Historical settings. Is it possible for a women today to be inexperienced? Yes. Is it likely or the norm? No. And when I say inexperienced, I'm talking completely ignorant of the act, the parts, and how they work.
Now, to Chance. I'm not sure of the exact definition of Erotica though I'm sure we could find one. But I think the emotional level involved in the sex has less to do with it than the amount of sex in the story. The language used is also important. I think an Erotic story can involve only two characters who fall in love and find their HEA. Just like in a straight Romance. But if they have sex often, as in at least once a chapter, and experiment a bit, then I'm thinking that's the difference. So my guess is quantity and language might be the distinctions.
*scribbling madly
I'm gonna write a book 'bout this debate! Right after I finish the book a' the romance codes...
Here you go, Chance. At this point of the story, the hero is telling the heroine how he's been imagining her in his dreams.
"You cross the room to me but I'm afraid if I touch you, like this," Max thrust his fingers further into her warmth, "I might die on the spot. So I ask you to touch yourself for me." In a masterful but gentle voice he said, "Touch yourself for me, Anna."
Lost to his voice, his rhythm and his words, Anna obeyed. She touched one breast, tentative at first. When she rolled her nipple between her hot fingers, another current rolled through her.
"That's it, Anna. Touch yourself for me. With me." Following his words with actions, Max bent forward, never stopping the motion of his fingers inside her most sensitive place, and dropped kisses across her stomach. "Bring yourself higher, Anna."
Ever obedient, Anna massaged both breasts, tugging on her pebble-like nipples and sending tremor after tremor down to her sex. Down to his fingers. She could feel the moisture flow from her.
"Ah, you're so wet for me. I want to taste you, Anna. Let me taste you." When his fingers left her she felt bereft. But not for long.
BTW - This is from an Erotic Romance short. I haven't gotten to a sex scene in my Contemp WIP yet. LOL!
Hmmmm. Nice. Very nice. Sigh. I gotta finish the mystery cozy I'm reading and dive back into something steamy...
Uh, can I just say how glad I am I'm on birth control?
Hey J, my post wasn’t meant to be a sermon about “everybody needs to take responsibility for their sexuality/sexual behavior”. It was meant to point out an interesting trend that is developing among young people. As a person who is sort of out in the field , figuratively speaking ( literally too if you’ve seen pictures of where I live) , I hear a lot of things. Thought that I would share them with you writers. Think of me as your research assistant! I wanted to give you all a little ammunition. Just in case you wrote a story that reflects these changing attitudes & your publisher or editor throws it back at you with a “That doesn’t happen in real life”. I feel that changing trends in social behavior Should be reflected in Romance Lit. Especially in the contemporaries. Writing about good trends … is well … good. But I feel that it is just as important to include the bad ones. Because Romance Lit has a HEA, I feel that it is a “safe” place to discuss difficult social subject matter.
Sure, but what does birth control have to do with anything?
"Sure, but what does birth control have to do with anything?"
Terri IT means that you're Writing Is HOT!!!! Which makes it dangeroussssssss! OMG
OH. LOL! I missed that.
Uhm...thanks. :)
And Chance ... all I can say is ...Holy-Cow-WOW!
And no offense … BUT I can’t read any more of this stuff. Its killing me ....
My DH won’t be home for hours. ;0
*Julie runs off to stick her head in the freezer*
Well said, Julie. Exactly.
The reason I'm glad I'm on birth control is because if I weren't, I'd be pregnant. Any guess as to why???
Ha! I sent you this entire story and you never even read it. Can't be that good. ;)
Well now I will! Damn!
Julie, ya need a nasty duck.
LMAO!
Would that make it a wet dreeeeee... oh never mind
Forget the nasty duck ... I need a Nasty alien! LOL
And Q... you are a Wicked, WICKED man to use ice water & dreams!
Tendar isn't nasty, actually he's very, very sweet.
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