Genre Hell
- 2nd Chance sits, a forlorn look on her face as she gazes out at the sun’s glittering path. Her bare feet dangle from the sides of the ship.
- Captain Hellion, being the sensitive soul she is, strides over and sets a hand on the bartender’s shoulder, “What be bothering you this morning, Chance?”
- Chance waves a sheet of paper about and sighs.
- “Oh, another rejection?” Hel reaches for it.
- Chance moves it out of her reach, “Nay, no rejection. I’m submittin’ again and jus’ -findin’ it so frustratin’!” She sniffs, “I don’ like the genre class I seem ta’ be fated ta fall inta.”
- “It’s a complicated debate. Why you worried about it?” the Captain rolled her eyes. Chance often railed at such esoteric subjects…
*Fetching the rum barrel now, climbing ta the top, balancing meself…*
Genres. I really struggle with the limitations of defining myself by such narrow guidelines. Write about a time traveling witch and you’re a paranormal writer. Ignore the fact that her abilities have little to do with the actual plot of the story. (If she traveled with a machine, would it be science fiction?)
*Jumps from barrel and begins pacing, hands gesturing wildly*
Create an alternate world and *bam* - must be paranormal! It’s just the setting, not the whole story!
*Banging head on mast*
I got nothing against paranormals, crew. I read them, I like them and have no qualms of naming some of me stories as paranormals. But the rest? Don’t see it. Feel like a step-child that the romance poo-bahs didn’t know what to do with, so they signed me up for ballet when I really wanted to learn how to tango. (And I don’t do toe slippers.)
So, you create a story with a very tall heroine. The book must belong in tall romance. (I know, no such beast, but bear with me! I’m working a point!) Of course, the fact that she is tall has nothing to do with the actual drive of the story. So, she can change a light bulb all by herself during a pivotal scene…reach boxes at the top of grocery shelves with ease, is taller than the hero, plays professional basketball… All elements of tallness, but not driving the action. There is also a warrior from another time in the story…and, for the sake of argument, let’s say…a talking dog. But the heroine? She’s tall, must-go-in-tall-romance genre. Argh!
*grabs tankard from Sin, who is watching with a smirk on her face, as usual. Gulps it down and tosses tankard back at the ninja pirate. Opens hands wide, pleading…*
Tell me, if the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie were a book, where would it be shelved? There be a love story central to the story. So it’s a romance. There be a rogue with the luck of the devil. (OK, romance.) But there be an undead crew and monkey…oooh! That make it paranormal! But it be set in the Caribbean of the late 1700’s…it’s a historical! Some definite adventure to the story, fighting, sailing, chases, battles – so ‘tis an adventure! A quest almost…so, it’s fantasy?
Romancing the Stone – an adventure. Indiana Jones – an adventure. But there were love stories woven into both. With Indy there also be magic… So, would it be a paranormal? With Romancing the Stone there was a mystery to solve, and a kidnapping! Oh, dear! It’s a mystery? A thriller?
Does fantasy have to have a fairy in it? Or an elf? But…aren’t they magic? So that is paranormal? Ya catch me drift? (Is there actually a fantasy category, or did they stuff that in with paranormal? I want a master list. Long with that decoder ring, blast it!)
Ask me about erotica. I didn’t think I was writing erotica. I’m from California, shoot me in the head, but I thought that choosing multiple sex partners was a lifestyle choice. Just an element of a story, not necessarily the driving genre direction. So, wow! I’m writing erotica. Who knew? Sigh. But it’s OK, I’ll flow with this one.
*wicked gleam in the eye at that last revelation. Climbs back onto the barrel for a final call for action…*
I long for a new category. Romantic Adventure. Where the adventure be the sail of the story, no matter what other elements play mix in. I be tired a’ bein’ sorted in wit’ the shape-shifters, the vampires, the zombies and any occult device imagined… And don’t get me started on urban fantasy, magical realism and the apocalyptic themes! They be about as unconnected as the rest, but still…paranormal! What will next year’s stepchild be?
Be I alone in this frustration? Any other thoughts on the assignment of genre? What genre would you create? If all fiction were classified as romance, what new subcategories would you find? Again, who stocks the bar at the secret grand poo-bahs meetings? As a reader, what are your thoughts?
Books by the Crew
106 comments:
Susparatorical, or is that parasustorical, hmmmm. . . maybe Adsusparatorical, whatever it is, it's got to be ROMANCE. :)
What a very fun, blog!
Renee
Supercalifragilisticespialadotus!
It's all romance, ain't it?
Thanks, Renee. Thinks we come up with some new drinks outta this one!
I sorta like the susparatorical...
Parasustorical sounds like it might suck blood, which the fang folks might like... Adsusparatorical, now that is one mouthful! A drink wit' a bit a' everythin'!
You got nothing on me, Chance.Sometime you've got to read my book Third-Rate Romance. Talk about genre-confusion. Five couples: Regency, Western, Chick-lit, Vampire and the 21st century writer who wrote them all and her Navy guy. There's a Napoleonic spy, a sheriff and a supermodel. Then there's time travel when the characters get together due to a freak computer crash to save themselves from the slush pile in the sky.Needless to say, this book will NOT be on a shelf near you any time soon but it sure was fun to write. :)
Chance,Like you I have a horror of being predictable, of being classified and placed in a box or on a shelf. Somehow it seems to violate our Quantum nature!
There is however a librarian in all of us. For practical reasons we like to classify and organise so that we can retrieve a book from the appropriate shelf as required.
I have a vast digital library and despite my belief in the indeterminate quantum nature of reality, I still try to classify authors. Trouble is as soon as I place an author firmly in the Regency Romance folder, I find that they have written a medieval. Then I find they have written a fantasy or a mystery or a....*?!
Even worse, like Maggie they may have mixed everything together in one book!
Now my classification system has become a vast spider's web. The Romance Folder has sub folders labelled 'historical' or 'contemp' or 'fantasy'. Then the Romance/historical folder has sub folders labelled 'mystery' or 'guess what' or......
I'm beginning to realise that librarians are actually very skilled individuals. When I go to the public library and see them sitting in front of computer screens, I now understand that they are probably not posting on the revenge website after all, but constructing cunning classification schemes to help me find what I want. They could even be using advanced optimisation techniques to achieve the ultimate classification, but then again... *grin*
Thank heavens for powerful search engines. :roll:
Love your style Chance! 8)
I've definitely walked the wire between genres, Chance, my girl.
My first MS was historical paranormal. Or historical fantasy. A witch in regency London solving a murder.
I had some difficulty when I was entering contests. My MS didn't contain the dark elements of paranormals. And it didn't include the lush world building of fantasy novels (which I sort of equate with sci fi, futuristic, or time travel books. Or even the elf/fairy/mythology books). And I knew if I entered paranormal sections, my little quirky witch would be up against vampires, shapeshifters, and urban fantasy warriors. She was going to get her ass-kicked. Or her petticoats soiled.
It fit better with the historicals, as the majority of my conflicts were a result of the time period and it "felt" like a Regency novel. Just with witches. It finaled in the one contest I entered, so I assume that I made the right decision with it there. And calling it historical paranormal versus paranormal historical. (potAYto, potAHto, I say)
I think the challenge of writing something that stretches the boundaries of subgenres is convincing an agent/editor where the audience for the MS is. Because as much as we write for ourselves, they publish for money. If they don't know how to market, their job is difficult. And a difficult job for an editor is one they'd be too tempted to pass on.
Funny blog, 2nd! I have mixed emotions about the whole genre thing. I do like knowing what I'm getting when I pick up, or especially buy a book. On the other hand putting certain labels on books can be a detriment.
A lot of Nora Roberts books contain ghosts, fairies, witches, supernatural beings. Are they considered paranormal? I'm not a big fan of paranormal. If someone would have told me beforehand that half the Nora Roberts books I read were paranormals I would have passed on some really great books. I read them because they were romances and she was an author I trusted to give me a good story.
Is creating more and more and yet more genres to seperate all these romances into helpful to the reader or more of a detriment to the author? I really don't know.
I find it helpful to think more about marketing than choosing a specific genre - as in, who is your audience? If you think about what *your audience* reads, what other books are they picking up? So if you can't give an agent/editor a firm genre title, you can at least give them an idea of your market.
I can call my books romantic suspense, which mostly covers it, but I prefer "romantic thriller", though that's not technically a genre (yet). But when I'm describing it to people, I just say, "It's James Bond, but he gets the girl." And someone said, "Oh, you mean chick thrillers." LOL. Yes, exactly!
So if I can make up a "romantic thriller" genre, you can totally use "romantic adventure"
I think Romantic Adventure would be an awesome category. I be a simple pirate who writes straight, main-stream contemps, but then my contemps don't have movie stars or CEOs or big-time athletes. So do I fit in? I've been told for contemp your characters (at least one of them) has to be powerful in some way. The easiest way to show that is to make him or her uber-rich. So my chef went from working in a restaurant to owning his own restaurant. He's still not uber-rich, but he's in a position of power and that was as far as I was willing to compromise.
Those who have mentioned marketing are exactly right. If you want to self-publish then work your arse off to get word out to the readers, you can write anything you want. But a publisher has to know what kind of widgit they are buying. If they don't know who would buy it, where they'd buy it, or how to describe it, they aren't going to put their money behind it.
It's sad, but it's a fact of life and of this industry.
AH! Good Morning Revenge Crew! I see my loyal friend 2nd Chance has been up to her tricks again rocking the boat *g*. It is so true, there needs to be some expansion on these genres, with all the different types of writers out there and we all know there are many!
We need to expand the genres to better fit some of these titles. Why can't they open up a "romantic thriller" or "romantic adventure"? Hopefully someone out there is listening to the writers and will see the need for this soon.
My question is... does erotic fall into these sub genres? Is it historical erotic? or erotic historical or just plain erotic, it's so confusing!
Please dont get me going on the cover issue, I picked up a book, it looked so like a paranormal from the cover, even the blurb kind of gave it that feel and it WAS NOT a paranormal at all, it was a good historical,Not even a mystery, thriller, type either. I almost didnt buy it because, I again am not fond of the blood and vampire thing! I know, I know "don't judge a book by its cover."
Jane - I think with eroticas, the word "erotic" comes before (no pun intended...lol) the other descriptive term. So Erotic Historical or Erotic Paranormal. That's my guess anyway. We need Dee to help us out with that one.
You remind me of when I wrote my Erotic Romance short story and submitted it and some of the feedback was that the opening scene made the reader think it was paranormal. But the opening scene was just a dream. As I'd never written anything paranormal or wanted to, I had no idea how I *sounded* paranormal completely by accident!
Don't worry, 2nd. A lot of us around here can't commit to one clearly "defined" genre. Except Terri, who doesn't care for paranormal stuff and doesn't want to write historicals. Hal's seems pretty cut and defined--but the rest of us, for the most part, seem to like to make graveyard blends of two or three different genres.
Knowing the little that I know about your pirate manuscript--and whilst ADVENTURE does seem to cover quite a bit of it--I think of it as more a time-travel historical. I think ADVENTURE is tagged on a lot of fiction of late, just to say: hey this is wild and exciting and fun and unpredictable! When in fact, that should be your book anyway. That's why you have plot and conflict going on, right? To make your story wild, fun, & unpredictable?
Janet Evanovich classifies hers as "adventure" but I think mostly when they're genre defined, they're lumped under the category of "mystery" (because the romance aspect is backseat to solving the crime.) And Leslie Langtry's is also adventuresome--but where her romance aspect is more defined, it's still almost second to solving the problem of the plot. "Who's trying to kill her? Will she solve the problem before her family puts a hit out on her?" Sherrilyn Kenyon's books: urban fantasy, paranormal, contemporary and at points: historical. But because her books have so much to do with "vampires" and other creatures of the night--and gods we read about in mythology, she's generally classified as paranormal. And believe me, she's HARD to classify.
Stories are always a blend of many many good things.
As for trying to write to market--that's not as easy to do and ill-advised. Write the book you want, but keep in mind it might not be ready for the market yet. Teresa Medeiros likes to write many different things, though most of her stuff is going to be defined in historical romance--but she writes the idea she wants and knows there will be a market for it eventually...and when the market is there, she'll have a book for it.
Morning crew!
Sigh. Yeah, the marketing question. I worked in a bookstore once and know how confusing it was to shelf these books, so I get it. And the contest question? I have no idea where to enter my humble little pirate saga! Me erotics...I thought of them as paranormal first...ha! According to me teacher, they be erotica first...
Me head hurts...
Maggie - Yer books sounds fun! I love a good stew!
Q - Yer the scientist of us. Wanting a system... Ya know, I took one a' those test in high school and according to all those little questions, I was well suited ta be a librarian! On the high seas...shelfing books, shushing the crew...
It be hard ta know where to put books. I gives up and does 'em by author. But if anyone can find a way ta do it by genre, I'm sure 'tis you!
Marnee - Makes ya wonder, though... Each agent/editor must look at some of the hugely successful crossovers and think... "I want to find the next mutt and make it a star!"
Hell, I'm willin' ta help out! I'll promote like the lunatic I am.
I've just always known that my paranormal is an urban fantasy. There's too much changing of the world as we know it to let it be paranormal. My RS is RS because there is light romance, but it's mostly a suspense manuscript. Or action. I'm not sure. Do they have an Action genre?
Nora is a category. Don't ya think she just needs her own genre?
And if I labeled it as an "action" romance would men read it?
Hal! A vote for romantic adventure! Yeah! Have a hooha, extra glitter!
Ya gots ta admit, somewhere, back in the vastness of time, they decreed a genre called romance. And it was good. And the covers were hunks, the colors bright. Along came...oh, say...the romantic thriller, and the poohbahs, after a good long while, gave it their nod. Then someone snuck a love story into a cozy mystery...
Suddenly, it was like cats having kittens. And attempts are made to corral these cats... Don't work.
At this point, paranormal is such a grabbag of this, that and everything else that it's a mess!
Sin! That be a good question....would men read it? I've read several good romantic suspense featuring Navy Seals, etc... I don't know...we should go out and hijack some men and hand them the books... Yeah, test subjects...
Women like suspense and they write it extremely well...
Is tagging romance onto the genre a killer when it comes ta marketing to men?
I didn't know contemporaries had to have at least one character that is uber powerful/rich!? Really, Terrio? Yer makin' me think a' all the contemps I read and wantin' ta go back inta' them and keep track...
I s'pose 'tis easier ta leave behind the toil and drudgery if'n one has moola...
Just to clear this up, I am NOT saying write to market. Write the story you want to write. Or as one of the quotes over my desk says, write the story you most want to read. But once your book is finished, if you want to sell it, you'll have to figure out how someone would market it.
Yep, that uber thing seems to be a common thread in contemps. But as in everything, if you write a story well enough that does not have uber-powerful characters, then you can sell it. I haven't read Carr or Macomber, but I don't think they write to this uber thing. However, I'm guessing that Virgin River series has characters like the town mayor and the sheriff and the leading business person in town. It's the position of power that is important, less so than the money I think.
Jane-o! Hope ya left the kitties at home today!
What comes first in an erotic book? The historical or the erotic? Is it Historotica? Or Erotohist?
Hel - Yer a voice of reason... When I thought a this rant, I thought... "Well, all stories have adventure!" And it's true. I be thinkin' a' the real driving force...
If'n the book features vampires and the adventure consists of being turned, or not being turned...it's a paranormal...right? If the adventure is sparked by being a bounty hunter and an escapee from the funny farm, it's comedy.
Leslie is a hard one... Hmmmm.
Me point bein'...all books have adventure. Me witch travels in time, but the travelin' isn't the adventure. It's the chase cross the seas, ta save the world.
Sigh.
I do likes the idea of writing the book and letting the genre/markets catch up wit' it. No one ever thought Buffy the Vampire Slayer would give rise ta an entire industry!
It's dangerous to get me started on the subject of labeling. I could rant for days, starting with "literary fiction," "general fiction," and "genre fiction" and the moseses who were appointed to decide what's what. Then there's "women's fiction" for female self-discovery stories, but if it's male self-discovery, it's just "fiction." Teachers of the young soon learn that most girls will read "boy books," but few boys will read "girl books," and those few will probably complain loudly--if only for effect.
I think TLWH is contemporary romance, but it definitely has elements of women's fiction. I know classification is needed, but too often labels are just a way to restrict and isolate.
Write ta market? Shudder.
It all changes so fast!
I be more inclined to create a market, but I be mad, ya know.
I gots a friend who is writing to market, very specifically. Fer some it works! I'd go even madder.
Imagine starting a MS according to what is selling right now! Then the market shifts, so ya add in a vampire. Uh oh, afore ya finished, they be wanting zombies... Okaaaaay!? Yer done!
Oh, westerns! A new author hits the stacks and is so-o-o-o-o good, starts an entire new resurgence.
Can the zombies be cowboys? ;)
Janga...what is TLWH?
I do know what ya mean about the whole boy/girl thing. Moms would come inta the bookstore, lookin' fer books fer their boys ta read... Wow.
It all starts too early, the sexist crap.
I don't usually read a book based on its genre. However, I have been known NOT to read a book based on its genre. There are just some I don't care for.
I guess if you write a good book and get buzz about it, the people who like the genre you're writing in (or creating) will find you.
2nd-Nora is a catagory-LOL!
Di
Janga, don't make me drag my soapbox over to yours to start ranting with you about "fiction" vs "women's fiction"--what a load of rancid bullshit. Pardon my Missourian.
My theory is that men's fiction tends to revolve around violence and mortality and coming to grips with their own death; and women's fiction tends to revolve around inner strength, reflection, and taking responsibility for one's life through action rather than being a "victim." And this is accomplished through laughter and lots of girlfriends. Men accomplish theirs by sleeping with alot of different women.
Labeling is just wrong. It's from mankind's need to compartmentalize every aspect of their lives. (Waffle thinking rather than spaghetti.) Something must be easily defined and put in place in order to put order into chaos. As if mankind is ever that simply defined. As if we're ever able to be just ONE thing.
I think all this is why books get that amendment on the end now. Historical Romance *with paranormal elements*. It's the elements that make the difference.
I'd agree with Hellie that your story would be time travel, Chance. Only because she does jump from time period to time period and that's a major element that needs to be included. The fact that you are writing a Romance is a given.
I think the funny this is that before I got so involved in the online community and trying to write these things, I never knew there were so many different genres. And the readers who just read and don't float around the net getting involved in all this don't know it either. So the joke is really on the industry who think we are doing something so controled and the readers just read whatever the hell floats their boat anyway. LOL!
Hel? Spaghetti thinking verses waffle thinking? Suddenly, I'm hungry...
I knew we'd we'd end up talking about food at one point...
I remember in the bookstore when they tried to start a men's interests shelf. For action/adventure, of course. The buys wouldn't shop there. I think they thought it sort of...demeaning. Well, duh.
We men. Read explosions. Good. Ugh.
Ya think it's time travel, even though she arrives and never leaves again? Sure, her knowledge as a Rider plays into tactics... Hmmm. Food for thought!
So, what's with erotica? What makes a book earn that label and not just a sexy historical. Or a hot paranormal? Was Judi right? Is it all about how many end up in the bed?
Laurell K. Hamilton started with a spicy mystery/paranormal. Anymore? Erotic paranormal?
Of subject...anyone know a good home remedy for poison oak? I'm dying here...
The only thing I know of for poison oak and ivy is prednisone.
Renee
IMO Erotic is defined by the language and the amount of sex. In that type of book, a clit is a clit and a cock is a cock and that's how they refer to them. The sex is explicit and I believe there is a clear difference between hot and explicit. You can write a hot Romance with plenty of sex and it not qualify as Erotic. And though you can likely have a regular Romance with more than the two main characters in the love scene, it would be damn hard to outside of the Erotic market.
**That should be "damn hard to sell..." LOL! Though perhaps reading that scene would make things hard.
;)
Sorry, never had poison oak or ivy so no pointers or cures here.
Having a men's "self-interests" section sounds, well, redundant.
(Slightly cranky today.)
I think the ACTUAL reason that it didn't work is that 80% of ALL fiction is bought by women. Segregating the fiction into a boy's section only made it that much more unlikely a woman would find it.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14175229
Men like non-fiction better for some reason. I find it ironic they like TRUE account stories so much when telling the truth about who put the empty milk container back in the fridge seems to elude them. But whatever.
P.S. because 80% of all fiction is bought by women, it seems counterintuitive to label "fiction" separate from "women's fiction." What is marketing thinking by doing this? I assume it's some sort of soft label to get rid of "chick lit" without doing away with the label altogether.
Waffle vs Spaghetti thinking. I saw an article once that said men think like waffles--in compartments, everything in it's place, no overlapping; but women think like spaghetti (our favorite food), all overlapping. You know, where something that is effecting our life over here is effecting our life everywhere else because it's spaghetti--and it's tangled all over the plate. Where men tend to shelve things and refuse to let something interfere with other aspects of their lives. I don't know if this is true--but a guy wrote it, I think, and I do tend to agree about the spaghetti part. All my stuff overlaps.
Terr, you haven't had poison ivy? Gah. Your childbirthing story lasts FORTY minutes and it didn't really bother you; and you've never had poison ivy? You make me ill sometimes. *LOL*
Hellion said:
My theory is that men’s fiction tends to revolve around violence and mortality and coming to grips with their own death; and women’s fiction tends to revolve around inner strength, reflection, and taking responsibility for one’s life through action rather than being a “victim.” And this is accomplished through laughter and lots of girlfriends. Men accomplish theirs by sleeping with alot of different women.
Labelling is just wrong. It’s from mankind’s need to compartmentalise every aspect of their lives. (Waffle thinking rather than spaghetti.) Something must be easily defined and put in place in order to put order into chaos. As if mankind is ever that simply defined. As if we’re ever able to be just ONE thing.
Helli, I think you might make a decent theorist with a little more encouragement!
Your vision of men in fiction strikes me as ludicrously wide of the mark. Its actually men who like action, strategy and planning whereas in much romantic literature the women tend to sit around at tea parties chatting aimlessly about this and that and achieving nothing, until an alpha man appears and focuses their meandering minds. When this happens though, I grant you that the feminine mind can exhibit awesome wit and cunning.
On labelling I think you are mistaken. Its true that a single label may fail but multiple labels are a very efficient way to categorise. You are living in a linear universe girl! The real world is multi-dimensional. That may be a problem for stacking books on shelves but is OK in a digital library where a book can have many labels attached. To find books of interest you simply enter the labels of interest into a suitable search engine.
Q, I could probably be a decent theorist if I'd stop cracking jokes and snide remarks in the middle of my theories. Alas, my English professors never broke me of it--and believe me, they wanted to strangle me over it. *LOL* But I'm glad you think eventually I can become a decent theorist. *LOLL*
*points to Q* See, a waffle thinker.
When I was speaking of women's fiction, I was thinking of Elizabeth Berg--not "general romantic fiction" which I think has a different plot. I think most romance novels are not about reflection or "I am woman, hear me roar"--they're more madcap, adventure, and Sex in the City based fiction pieces. Lots of talking, as you say.
But women's fiction-women's fiction, like ala Debbie Macomber or Jodi Piccolt or Elizabeth Berg or even Marsha Moyer--they're more reflective in nature. I tend to think of women's fiction as a cut above general romantic fiction...because I'm a snob. There, I admitted it.
Oh, and I have to throw in: Elizabeth Gilbert because I finished the Eat Pray Love a few weeks ago, and it's undoubtedly coloring my current perceptions of what is women's fiction. (Though I guess it was a memoir...eh, I still put it in the women's fiction category.)
I'm sorry, I'm just not allergic to poison ivy. There was a kid I grew up with and we ran in the same woods all the time. (Yes, we had woods in the burbs.) He must have gotten poison ivy three times a summer EVERY summer. Neither my sister or I have ever had it. We're just not allergic to it.
And technically, I was in labor for 14 hours. I just only felt two contractions in that entire 14 hours and pushed for a measley (sp?) 30 mins.
Gilbert is a memoir. Totally different fish.
I'm not sure of the clear lines between women's fiction and regular fiction written by women. I think of LuAnn Rice, Eileen Gouge, and at times Stef Ann Holm as Women's Fiction. They are romances that are heavy on the female character and her development. The romance is there but mostly takes a back seat.
Fiction like Secret Life Of Bees and My Sister's Keeper and Lovely Bones is mainstream fiction to me. They just happen to be written by women.
Ala! Never had the poison oak stuff, eh? Yer a lucky woman. I don't know if poison ivy be much different...
And the fight is on between Q and the Cap'n...
As with any argument, there is room for both sides. And nothing is ever clear cut. The men's fiction shelf never did work out. They tried calling it military fiction at one point...was funny, really.
As reader, I want the stuff I want basically in one area when I shop. Which, I think, is the entire justification behind the category stuff. The drawback is that people who only shop scifi, for example, seldom step outside those aisles to the rest of the store. Where scifi themes are scattered everywhere.
Same with romance sections. Last store I worked at had a measly three shelves for romance. But I could wander through mystery, fantasy, women's fiction and many other places and pull books that 'could' be in romance. Some that 'should' be in romance.
Now, me sister thinks the erotica label depends on age and upbringing. One person's midnight erotica is another person's lunch read.
I can see the language thing being part of the picture. Seems like it all dances on the head of a pin... Where is it erotica? Where is it hot? Where is it porn?
And why, if it's man on man, is it automatically erotica?
I'm rather taken aback by Q's description of all the ladies sitting around at a hen-party until the big bad dude comes and stirs things up. Makes me want to throw something across the pond!
The M/M thing again has to do with marketing. The traditional definition of the romance novel is the story of two people falling in love and finding their HEA. And traditionally, that has meant M/F partners.
You could write a M/M story and have it be straight Romance with no Erotica elements. Suzanne Brockman has proven that. But it's the marketing thing again. The only houses usually willing to take a chance on this new and different kind of story is the Erotica houses.
Yeah, let's throw our empties over the pond at Q! Hen party, indeed!
Oh, they be the ballast fer the ship? Nevermind.
I find it so twisted that M/M is all erotica and it's mostly written by women... I got ta ask me gay brother-in-law what he thinks about it one a these days.
Scuse me, I'm off to scratch myself... ARRRRGHHH!
Ah, I think Q was just firing back a shot because I said men's fiction generally revolves around men solving their problems with their mortality with sex.
We're not going to win the debate about women's fiction and the fact we have more dialogue than men's fiction. WE do talk more. WE do have a bigger vocabulary. Even if you get a chatty guy, I'm still not convinced they talk as much as what is considered a chatty woman. (You know, as opposed to a regular woman.) Terri will argue of course, because she seems to have found the only uber-chatty men in the western hemisphere and dated them.
I will not argue that. LOL! In general, I fully agree and I'm pretty sure scientific tests and surveys have proven that we talk much more in a day than men do. I only said, in less general and more personal experience, there are men who talk a lot.
Yes, but do they really say anything?
They could argue do we really say anything so I'll leave that one alone. LOL!
Ah! Definitions again!
Say, discuss, talk, chatter, speak, lecture, argue, coo...
My husband talks...soon as I pry open his jaws, reach in and pull the words out. Then he chatters like the rest of us hens.
My sister is out there, lurking...come on, post, ya bit chicken!
Your sister is lurking? Would she be 1st Chance or 3rd Chance?
Come on, we don't bite. Well, except Sin and she seems to be busy today.
However, you do notice that if Q actually thought I was *wrong* about the content of "men's fiction", he would have pointed out clear, rational examples of men's fiction that didn't involve violence or solving their mortality problem with copious amounts of casual sex.
However, he couldn't think of any either, so he took the shot that we were a bunch of chatty hens who'd rather talk than take action.
ARE there any men's fiction novels that have a man be reflective without shooting someone or sleeping with someone? A fictionalize accounting of Ghandi even? Anything?
With me sis, depends on what sorta chance she be takin'...
I think the only thing I've read that falls into Men's Fiction was Pat Conroy's Beach Music. And he wasn't shooting people up or having casual sex with anyone. Though he did do flashbacks to another character's time at the Citadel which was not good. But the main character was very reflective and grew A LOT through the story. Even dealt with his strange relationship with his mother. And was a single dad raising a daughter.
Ooooh! I love the challenge! Men's fiction...hmmmm.
Cap'n, I love it when you're grumpy.
Q? Your turn!
The Prince of Tides guy. Good one! Okay, the men have one.
Though I do like glancing through the descriptors for the books and seeing Pat keeps using the "mother who inflicts guilt at horrific levels" character; and Nicholas Sparks likes to use the "hero character who dies at the end" motif. Don't you wonder about author's personal lives sometimes when they keep returning to the same thing, even though the stories are "different"? Don't you wonder, wow, how screwed up are they?
Sorry, this is COMPLETELY off blog topic. I'm sorry, 2nd.
Nah! I think it's very on topic! The whole how do you define a book...and the men's genre thing is fascinating. I've read some wonderful men who write wonderful women... I think Charles de Lint does women better than he does men. (Hope that sounds right...)
Oh, I mentioned Charles de Lint...a round to everyone! I mentioned him twice...two rounds!
I get such a kick out of repitition in books... I love Eloisa's books, but the plot if basically the same...find a husband. Granted, it's the time period she's writing in. And she does it fantastically...
I assume writers who set their hero/heroines up the same each time are working some deep seated therapy issues out...
I am fond of Christopher Moore. But he's reflective in a GUY sort of way. You know, the kind with fart jokes.
Aren't we all working issues out? LOL! Yep, the Prince of Tides guy. And I CANNOT get through that movie. Gets to that one part and I'm done.
I'm thinking of Richard Paul Evans but his stuff might fall more in Inspirational than Mens Fiction.
In Beach Music, his relationship with his mother was crazy complicated. And it was interesting how it all worked out.
I bet Wally Lamb would qualify as a more introspective writer. What are we, up to four now? Woot.
OMG! Fart jokes again!?
Where is that rum barrel?!
Is it possible to be a guy writer and be introspective but not "Nicholas Sparks" about it (and you know what I'm talking about) BUT not be so low-brow as your introspection is diluted with fart jokes (that fart joke in Lamb by Chris Moore just makes me roll my eyes--what is it with men and body noises?)?
I think women manage to be introspective without Nicholas Sparking, and funny without relying on jokes about shopping (which is the woman joke that irks me as much as fart jokes)
I'm not a fan of fart jokes. Except this commercial I saw last week on one of those "Best Commercials of the Year" shows. These two guys in a deli used every fart euphemism they could, but none of it actually referred to farts. No idea why I found that funny, but I did.
What about John Updike? Would he qualify?
John Nichols? No, his heros sleep around a lot...well, not all of them. Barry Lopez?
Updike is a good one.
Barry Lopez--the search I did had him out in the arctic, getting in touch with "nature". This brings up my prejudice against camping, as we discussed by email. I refuse to put him on the list.
Oops. Sorry, 2nd, Terri & I had the discussion by email about camping--and WHY men found it so wonderful. I said camping appealed to all things men value: a silence without women there to talk and fill it; grilling; "survival against nature" (which men adore); and being able to fart with immunity.
I'd be more apt to let you add the Nichols person than Barry.
Uh...gee. I like to camp. I even did the vision quest thing in Death Valley one winter... But I do prefer a shower...
Yes, Barry wrote about the arctic... Mainly he's non fiction, though. Nichols...I do like Nichols...
The Milagro Beanfield War was classic.
Would Louis L'Amore fall into Mens Fiction or what? I've never read any of his, but I'm guessing there was lots of shooting. Is there sex in his books?
Hey! What about Edger Rice Burroughs!? Hee, hee. No, lots of shooting, slugging, etc. No sex, but I'm sure that was because of his generation...
Though Tarzan and Jane did have a baby...so there was some sex...
Aha! I touched a nerve. If you ladies are resorting to throwing bottles then I know your unsure of your ground. *grin*
Perhaps you are right about the 'Women's fiction' as I haven't read any of the authors mentioned. The definition of Men's fiction also seems to be somewhat ambiguous and there are many sub-genres.
I only read what I would call 'thinking man's fiction'. Two examples that I enjoyed recently:
Elizabeth Moon's 'The speed of Dark' is about an autistic young man's struggle with profound questions of humanity and matters of the heart. It certainly doesn't fall under the cap'ns description, though the hero is an expert with a fencing rapier.
Dan Brown's 'Digital Fortress' is a thriller about cracking a code that could cripple US intelligence. The action centers around cracking the code and there is 'dirty work at the cross roads' but minimal sex as I recall.
Do continue throwing bottles. We recycle them over here. *smile*
I'd say Louis is more adventure/violence. Though I did enjoy his stuff.
2nd: I'd probably like to camp more myself if the house I grew up didn't seem like a perpetual camping ground with an outhouse toilet, quirky showering facility, and freezing for no good reason...or burning up for the same no good reason.
I figure camping is for people who are tired of "cushy" living with central air and indoor plumbing. That's fine. Leaves more central air and indoor plumbing for me. I wouldn't want to time travel either for the same reasons. I'm a pansy. I know this about myself. I laugh at Tombstone when Wyatt asks Josephine of what makes her happy: "Room service." A woman after my own heart.
Ferget it, Q! We be savin' the bottles fer ballast...
Not sure Dan Brown would qualify, not sure there be enough inner thinking...
I wouldn't say Dan Brown is "inner reflective" BUT I do very much enjoy his work. He does make you think to solve the mystery; and his action/pacing is hard to match.
You can't have Elizabeth either because that's a woman writing it. I wanted to know if there were any male writers who wrote "reflective" fiction that didn't have violence as a main conflict proponent or sex. I.e. Do men EVER write about family life and do a good job of it?
'Tis true. We don't camp anymore. Part of the problem is sleeping on the ground. But mainly, I live 1/2 mile from the beach, am surrounded by oaks trees and much of what we once camped for... The outdoors.
But some fond memories of camping trips with the family...from Big Sur to the southwest to the pacific northwest. We were a camping family...
Right, sis?
2nd: I'm suddenly picturing you guys as a sort of Parent Trap sort of set with the Brian Keith (he was hunky) and Maureen O'Hara parents--they camped. Gives it a Rockwell/Disney flavor, which is sweet.
When I was a kid, camping was fun. Now I'm 30 something--plumbing is fun.
I thought of Dan Brown earlier (as I'm running out of male authors I've read) but didn't think he fit in the mens fiction category at all. He does like his codes, doesn't he?
Plumbing is fun... You have a hand held shower massage, too?
Hee, hee. Parent Trap... Yeah, sorta. But we brought our food. And there is nothing so fabulous as the smell of frying bacon in the outdoors.
Was the only way we could afford to get out and see stuff. The Grand Canyon, Mt. Lassen, Mt. Ranier, Seattle, Vancouver Island, Mesa Verde...good times...
OK you force me back in time to when I read some of the classics.
How about Herman Hesse.I remember enjoying 'Siddhartha' and 'The Glass Bead Game'. Not strictly about family life but certainly highly reflective.
He won the Nobel prize for the bead game. How many Women's Fiction writers have achieved that?
Since 1909, 11 women have won the Nobel prize for Literature. Another example of how men are idiots.
Doris Lessing. Love Again would probably be a good example, but it is about sex.
The Good Terrorist--but that would have violence in it...
Toni Morrison--who we all read in Women's Lit class, The Bluest Eye and Beloved.
Pearl Buck.
(BTW, I'm glad TS Eliot got a prize. I think his poems are awesome.)
Q? I think you're outgunned here, man.
Don't take it personal, we love 'r' science geek.
I googled as well and see that 105 Nobel prizes were awarded for Lit since 1901. 11 doesn't sound like a winning score!
Gee, I wonder who was on the panel who selected the winners. Hmmmmmmmmm..........
So annoying.
I think I'd better concede. I'm not that well read and as Chance comments, you guys are pretty quick on the draw!
I have read Pearl Buck though and enjoyed her far eastern romances. Didn't like Dorris Lessing much, even though she is English.
*LOL* Exactly. If men are on the picking panel, GEE, I wonder who they'll pick. Let me think....
Q - there be no shame in bowing to superior fire power.
Even Jack would agree ta that. Then figure out a way to come out on top anyway! LOL!
I be hitting the road fer a bit, if'n I don't make it back...it's been surreal!
That's right, 2nd, insert the line to a man about "figuring out a way to come out on top"--no innuendo to be found there. *laughs*
Q, you should give Toni Morrison a whirl. She is really good. More FICTION than 'women's fiction' as per how I think that label is played, but it's fiction that deals with women's perspective on things. She has a very lyrical way of writing, though the story is very DARK. But then again, the fiction that usually wins is DARK...so that's not a surprise. You don't win a prize for having light and fluffy fiction.
But that's another argument. I'm sure you're tired and would just like some scotch now, yes? *hands him some scotch and the paper* Why don't you relax and let all the thinking be done amongst the women, okay? (Sorry, I couldn't resist that...I seriously need a pill.)
Oh, and Q? Try Alice Hoffman.
Oh, afore I go...
So, I'm stuck in paranormal, with a caveat... I be inclined to call it Romantic Adventure with paranormal flavor.. No, too long...
OK! Paranormal adventure. Romantic paranormal adventure. RPA. Will try that on my next query...
And more than four legs in a bed means it's erotica. (Lessen there be aliens involoved?)
Gaaa! Here we go again!
Thanks Cap'n. I'll take the scotch and the paper.
Will try Toni Blake when there's time.
Better sign out now.....getting funny looks from Mrs Q.
Think she's wondering why I keep chortling!
Heck I must be tired! Substitute Morrison for Blake!
Oh and Alice Hoffman.
Its been a fun blog!
Was a fun day, weren't it?
My sis wanted all ta know she enjoyed the banter, just not willin' ta risk her job by postin'. Next time she makes a good comment on the side ta me, I'll post it fer 'er.
She did love the bit about the Parent Trap...we were a camping family... Makes me miss me Da, thinkin' 'bout it.
I'll check in much later, ta see if'n any stragglers stumble aboard...Missed Sin's wisecracks today...hope all is well wit' ya!
Oh, BTW, me sis said her name would probably be NoChance. She be a bit of a pessimist.
The confusion is not for the writers alone. As a reader, I often get through the first couple of chapters in a book and think "what am I reading?" It does seem Paranormal Romance is a huge category right now (that's where mine is and I submitted it as an Urban Fantasy!) So long as the heroes are well defined, I realize half way through that I just don't care any more. Now, if only they were illustrated...
-Melissa
PS. I'm leaving the undead monkey with you Chance. Good luck with that.
I was busy. I'm going on vacation next week. It's like all hope is lost in the batcave without me there. I worked until 8 :( In my defense (I was supposed to be off today) I worked from 7am-12pm, took off until 4 to see Watchmen and then worked from 4-8. Not bad for a day off *wry look*
I missed you guys. I'll miss you next week when I'm not around.
Sin - What did you think of Watchmen?! I'm not interested in seeing it but I am interested to hear if it lives up to the hype.
Wow! We topped over 100 comments. Awesome day on the ship! Huzzah for Chance!
No Chance? That's just not right. How about we call her Long Shot? That gives an inkling of a chance.
Chance - I think I'd go with Romantic Adventure with a time travel element. Maybe at RT you could strike up some convos with an editor or agent at the bar and grill them for their input.
Yeah, Missy, it would be nice to see illustrated. But that's what graphic comix are for! Otherwise, we use 'r' 'magination.
Sin...the monkey...mine? Oh, how...sweet of you. (Blast.)
I'll tell 'er Long Shot, Terrio...she'll like that. And I tol' 'er next time I can post fer 'er.
How was Watchmen?
And, whoohoo! 104? Heeheeheeheeheehee!
Watchmen- VERY VERY kick ass. Probably one of the best visual movies I've seen in a long while. Very super graphic and I loved every minute of it. I thought it was stellar but never reading the graphic novel and seeing the movie probably helps me keep that opinion.
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