Wednesday, March 4, 2009
Rejections or He(She)’s Just Not That Into You(r Book)
The PRO-loop is hosting a class this month about rejections. Some fabulous agents and editors have participated as well as a number of published authors. They stop by to shed light on why they reject a submission and what goes through their minds in the process. It has been incredibly informative and the guests have been incredibly gracious.Coincidentally, I dropped by my friend’s house yesterday and she’s reading the book He’s Just Not That Into You. I skimmed through the story (more a collection of whys/whynots) and I started to draw some connections.
This book maps out a lot of the excuses women use to rationalize male behavior. The authors are funny (writers from Sex and the City) but unfailingly blunt.
A small part of me wished this dratted book would have been written when was wading through the murky waters of unmarried life. It would have probably saved me from the PhD candidate who seriously said to me “being in a relationship with you makes me not want to be in a relationship” and the guy who broke up with me in one breath then asked to spend the night in the next.
Or maybe it wouldn’t have. I can be a bit stubborn sometimes.
But, as I’m now happily married to a guy who IS into me, I (in a nod to how obsessed I am these days) started making connections with my writing.
For a book full of harsh truths, it was surprisingly upbeat. Instead, of harping on the negative, it focused on what a girl is missing by wasting her time. And that it’s best to people at face value.
Rejections are the same way. There seem to be infinite reasons for rejections. Too similar to something they already have, not passionate about it, plot flaws, story flaws, voice doesn’t click with agent/editor, and on and on. Sometimes we’re lucky enough to get very specific feedback that explains what any given agent/editor is thinking. But a lot of times we don’t. And like the girl holding on to the guy who’s just not into her, we as writers can read a form rejection and overanalyze it like we’re writing literary criticism about it. We think, “I read such and such trade article that says the market’s full of XYZ that my book has. Maybe that’s it. Maybe if I tweak XYZ element of my story, that’ll do it.” Add multiple scenarios of reading between the lines.
But like the girl and the guy who isn’t in to her, we’re missing the big picture: if they don’t come right out and tell us why it’s been rejected, we can’t know for sure. We can just hone our craft, write the best book we can, and throw ourselves out there.
I pitched at the NJ RWA. One agent listened to my pitch and said flat out, “is your story erotic?” When I answered in the negative, she politely shook my hand. “I’m looking for erotic stories specifically right now.” And that was it. I thanked her and moved on. If that’s what she’s looking for, we don’t fit and that’s fine. She was very nice, I’m sure she’ll make some erotic writer a wonderful agent. But she just wasn’t that into my book.
It happens.
What’s the most helpful thing you’ve learned from a rejection (writerly or otherwise)? Most counterproductive? (Please, no names to protect the not so innocent). Those of you who have been rejected, how do you overcome? Anyone see this movie yet? Read the book? What did you think?
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52 comments:
Ahoy there! I just got another rejection letter yesterday. 2nd in a week. No biggie. I'm totally and completely fine with it.
The biggest thing for me is when I don't receive any word, especially when so much seems to get eaten by the spam folder. I'd much rather get a rejection than nothing, even if it is a form letter. The thing is, these agents get so many queries a day. And if you have been reading their blogs, you know they are seeing double the norm, so I don't expect a personal, "Sorry, Ms. Scott, your plot looked like Swiss cheese. Your grammar was atrocious, and clearly you shouldn't give up your day job."
A few weeks ago, I had gotten a request for something I hadn't even written yet. It was through one of those agent blogs. She wanted 5 lines, from whatever we were working on. After I bit all my nails off, I posted the very first 5 lines of a new piece I was playing around with. She requested twenty pages. Uhhhh. . . I didn't have twenty, I had ten, so I wrote and polished and sent them in. She requested the first three chapters. There were no more nails to bite off. Regretfully, I had to email her and tell her it was still a work in progress. I then in turn queried with my completed ms, totally different time frame in history. Rejected. That's okay. It wasn't her thing.
Wonderful blog, Marnee.
Renee
Thanks Renee! That sucks about the Rs this week. But that's really cool about the agent. At least you know when you write it, it's already got an audience! :)
And it is hard with emails and everything.
At least we're conserving paper, I suppose. LOL!
I think I only finished half my thought.
I meant that emails and technology have taken out what was personal in what had been already a pretty impersonal process. (Submissions). No response seems to be the new form letter.
That's when I was going to say at least we're conserving paper with emails and what not.
Sheesh, I need to go find my bed. I'm clearly not lucid.
The best thing I got from a rejection was being told the editor liked my voice and please continue to submit. Nectar to a starving bee...
I can't really say I've had a worst yet. I've had the form rejection letter with no help whatsoever, but considering I could get a 'what the hell do you think you are writing?' thing...I figure a form isn't that bad...
Saw the movie, liked the main character who was still searching and what she had to say to the Mac guy about how at least she had hope and believed in love... One of the best lines is at the end, with Ben Afleck... Won't spoil it for anyone. It's a great line about making her happy...
Renee, sorry to hear about the rejections but boy, it sounds like your writing has something to grab that agent's attention so immediately! Fantastic.
Must say I can't remember any one specific rejection giving me a huge amount of insight but the cumulative effect was to make me determined to succeed. I think too, the downer of being rejected, when I didn't have something else already out there or almost ready to submit, was so bad that it kept me working on the principle that I wanted to have something always in the pipeline - either a QLS or a partial or contest entries so there was always the chance of good news.
Actually, reading your post Marnee, made me think that the main thing I learned from rejections was not to give up in the face of them. To keep working and trying to improve and try again. As a very talented author here in Australia once said: the difference between published authors and unpublished ones is that the unpublished ones gave up. It was only after I almost gave up but decided to keep at it and finally started getting those acceptances that I truly understood how small that difference is.
Annie
I got the standard rejection of "not right for us" for Paradise from one agency, with this at the bottom:
Editorial Note: The evil sexiness of this dark,twisted tale drew me in. However, the protagonists' virtuous self-loathing felt over the top. Admittedly in line with the period, the way morality forced her hand time and time again proved too frustrating for this reader.
Did I ever laugh at the 'evil sexiness' line. And 'virtuous self-loathing.'What we all aspire to, LOL.
I got this for ths same ms:
I think you have an interesting story here, and the writing is quite evocative. However, from your synopsis I find the resolution to your plot with the introduction of the two villains comes out of left field. Also, your heroine needs to take more control over her destiny.
All completely true and helpful, so I changed it a little, and got a wonderful agent who liked it.
Angela James from Samhain once rejected me so beautifully---I can't find it right now (ironic when I can find the critical stuff), but basically she said I was sure I'd get published some day. Virtual kisses to her!
And I agree---once you've stepped up from the classic form letter to something specific, you know you're on the right track. Agents are swamped, and it means something if they take the time to scribble something in the margins.
As a writer you just have to keep at it and educate yourself about the business. The more/longer you write, the more you learn about your own skills, boundaries and deficits. Some are instantly lucky/talented, selling their first ms. But most are not.
What did I learn from rejections? Not to take it personally. To move on and continue working hard. To let go when the time is right (hence the two and a half books tucked under the bed).
I pitched in NJ too. The editor was firm in that she did not aquire the type of story I write. But gave me some pointers on pitching (she was my first ever person to pitch to) then like two minutes later, I pitched to my agent. I like saying that, my agent.
I think you either deal with the rejection or in the long run if you can't handle it you stop writing.
Didn't see the movie. Maybe when it comes on my movie channels up here.
I haven't submitted any fiction yet but to me it looks like 'horses for courses'
In research one always prefers to publish in 'high impact' journals for the prestige and brownie points, not to mention improving promotion prospects. But one can usually find a lesser journal that will publish if the 'big boys' reject it.
Isn't it the same with fiction? If a big publisher isn't interested, maybe one of the smaller ebook publishers will take it, or failing that there is always self publishing to consider. I'm also not sure why an agent is required unless you are aiming for the top.
As a starting premise I assume that a book would have to be pretty bad if there is no-one on the planet who would enjoy reading it. If you're not going to make it big time, then it would seem to be a matter of identifying your niche audience with the appropriate publishing mechanism.
Of course if your message is unique, then you might have to start your own publishing business. In my case I am writing for Regency romance lovers and cricket enthusiasts. The reception for the concept on blogs in America has been less than overwhelming, but I know there are enthusiasts tucked away in the UK. When I finish my novel I will probably self publish, catering for this tiny market sector.
Like Janga in a previous blog, I have given seminars in a large lecture theatre with a tiny audience in the front row. IMO its the quality and enthusiasm of the audience, rather than the size, that makes it all worthwhile!
Fascinating blog Marnee....and I can predict you're heading for the big time! 8)
Great blog Marn! I loved this movie - loved, loved, loved it. (went with a group of girlfriends, and we all laughed and the way through it - and then cried at the end, of course)
No real rejections for me yet, though I have a query out with my dream agent, so I'm expecting my first rejection any day now :)
I have gotten rejections on short stories/flash fiction, with the phrase, "the writing is strong, but...." Hey, I'll take that!
Annie - that's a wonderful thing to bear in mind, how small that difference is between giving up and not giving up.
Chance - I think that compliments on voice are some of the best. That's not something a person can "fix" or "learn" so when someone tells me that I always think, well, at least I've got that. I can fix everything else. LOL!
And I think you have a great voice too.
uh, that sound have been *niche* market, not nice market (though they are quite nice and polite in that market...lol)
Q - you bring up a good point about niche markets. I write academically in my "day job" and we do this. We have one book right now with a small, nice market, and so contracted with a small, university press who was well known for that particular niche - we knew they could get it to the right people with no problem. Then we have a book with a wider audience, who we contracted with Cambridge, as they have better marketing for US & UK sales.
I think no matter what you write, you have to be aware of your market/audience, and your marketing possibilities. I took a class last month with Stephanie Bond, who isn't hugely known, but makes a solid living writing romance, and she wasn't teaching writing craft, she was teaching business plans and marketing strategies - really amazing stuff that I think we often overlook while we learn the craft. But what better time to come up with a business plan than now, before we (or I) am getting published.
Annie - thanks for dropping by! I can see how continuing to work would keep the blow of rejections muted. That way the focus isn't just on the old story but on the upcoming one too. A sort of, well, they didn't like that one but it isn't half as good as this new one, kind of thing.
And I think that perseverance is 9/10s of the battle in this game.
Mags - I loved all your thoughts. "Evil sexiness" has to be the best thing I've heard in a while. That is evocative. LOL!
I think that you're right about the specific comments. I think if they give feedback that is invaluable. I also agree that we only improve and get closer to publishing by writing. I just read something I wrote 2 years ago (a start and stallout) and I cringed right through. Holy Tell! Very distant POV. Not concise at all. Horrible. LOL! And it made me laugh and feel good because I know I'm much better than that now. That's always a good feeling.
Tiff says: "Not to take it personally. To move on and continue working hard. To let go when the time is right (hence the two and a half books tucked under the bed)." These are great lessons. I agree completely with all of this and couldn't have said it better. (See long rambling post above).
And I think I'll probably wait for the movie channel too. :)
Q - I think that finding the right audience is very important. Marketing is definitely something I want to look into more. (hint hint Hal. nudge nudge. LOL!!) There are a lot of options out there for authors to get their work out. And thank you for the sweet compliment. :)
Hal - I think it's awesome you sent your first query out. It's a big step. :) I think NWTR is a really strong book. You're going to do great out there, I know it. And I'm not just saying that cause I'm your CP.
I like rejection. At least it means that they attempted to look it over. Even if they didn't, someone still took the time to let you know it wasn't for them.
I've not fully written anything, so I have nothing to submit.
I've not seen the movie or read the book.
Basically I have nothing to contribute today. LOL
I love how specific Maggie's "rejections" were--you can tell just how close she was to getting an agent, et al. :)
Me. I get the "It's not you, it's me, but we both know it's really you" mail merge form rejections. No one is particularly infatuated with any of my characters. *LOL* I'm apparently bland. I can't even inspire blind hatred.
I did read through the book at Barnes & Noble (because I did not want to bring it into my house. It just seemed like bad juju.) The "Nicole" person who kept coming in with wild scenerios where the reader was tempted to start screaming at the book: "Back away from this guy! He's awful! AWFUL!" were hilarious. And the guy's responses to these scenerios were hilarious--but BRUTAL. I loved how the female writer would follow after the guy and basically "offer tea and cookies" after the BRUTAL response, as a sort of trauma accident EMT.
By the way, the guy I'm dating, he's done at one time or another all of the things listed. And when I went to see the movie (which is nothing like the book; the slim connection is in title only), I even told my honey, "Yeah, I read the book. You know you've done all those things, right?"
"WHAT? I have not!"
"Yeah. You have. You're just not that into me."
"That is ridiculous. You know I love you, right?"
"Yes, baby, I do. Really, it's okay. I'm just saying as far as the book goes, you've done all the things that indicate you're not that into me."
"Well, that's just wrong."
"Don't worry, the movie isn't going to be like the book. The movie is for people who want the happy ending, so it won't be brutal like the book...."
Jordan, I wouldn't joke about excommunication as the worse scenario.
In the UK Salman Rushdie was in hiding in fear of his life for several years after publishing 'Satanic Verses'.
Writing can be a dangerous business! :LOL:
Helli Your guy sounds like he should be treasured.
Love conquers all!
Sin You stimulate me with your presence! No need to contribute anything else. :LOL:
Haleigh Hi, Are you involved in helping academics publish their work? I was a co-author on a Springer book once but the editor invited us to write the (technical) book in that case. I know that many Universities have their own publishing business and can be even more selective than the big publishing houses.
Maggie Can't believe that you wrote an 'evily sexy dark twisted tale' and then had a heroine with 'morality forcing her hand' and spoiling the fun! I think she really needs destiny to force her hand more. :LOL:
Sorry I'm late. Dentist appt this morning. I cannot feel the entire left side of my face. It's not pretty folks.
Like Sin, I don't have much to contribute today. I haven't read the book or seen the movie and though it looks cute, I don't want to see it. WAAAAAY too close to my reality. But thanks anyway.
I have received one rejection and it was for a short story into a specific anthology. The rejection was more "Your story was good but it just didn't make the cut." I did get a little round about feedback directly from the editor and she actually said it was "very well written." So that pretty much made my year. LOL!
I'm about to start submitting shorts to magazines so we'll see what happens. Fingers crossed!
Hal - Am I right? Isn't Ben's line at the end of the movie just perfect?
Sin says "I like rejection." I have no response for that. LOL! Anarchist, that's all I can say. :)
Hellsie - It's only a matter of time before an agent falls in love with you and your voice. I'm sure of it. And that's hilarious about your honey. Did you get him to the movie?
Don't worry, Q, I treasure my honey. I just like picking on him. *LOL* I love him--he says the right things (usually without coaching)--so he's a gem. Of couse, the one time he compared hearing my voice to that of angels singing, I nearly drove my car into the curb I was laughing too hard. I'm not the only person to have this reaction, all my friends have laughed maniacally that he actually said that.
But I do love that he actually said it. *LOL*
Marn: no, honey lives in another state (and I don't mean "Denial" or "Deer season" though he's lived in those two places as well.) I only get to see him occasionally. On the upside, our honeymoon phase gets to be further extended because we're not underfoot with each other, really irking the other one with our mood swings...or leaving dishes around. I mean, it's hard to miss someone if they won't go away, you know? Therefore when he's in town, he gets quite a reception. *LOL*
Also I would never drag him to a chick flick unless he actually told me "can I come too?" I mean, I just wouldn't bother asking, on principle. Why torture them? I hate dragging people to movies they hate--then listening to them later. I have my friend Holly, who when it comes to chick flicks, is like taking a guy along. She snorts at cheesy lines the whole time. She whines before the movie and after. She says, "I went to that awful chick flick, now you have to do this favor for me." It really is like taking a male to the movie with me.
P.S. thank you for the positive vibes about finding an agent who'll love my voice. *crossing fingers* I hope so too. Also means, I need to write and submit more to find this rare gem.
Jordan - I think that you'll know when you're ready to dive in there. And when you are, you'll definitely take your niche by storm. :)
And honestly, I think you've got the right of it. I don't think there are many published authors out there who haven't received at least one rejection. When I think of it like that, that a rejection gets me one step closer to publication, it doesn't hurt so bad. LOL!!
Ter - that's awesome about the good feedback and even cooler about sending out stories. If you'd like someone to read through the story, lemme know. :)
And Hellion - he actually said that? That's adorable. :) LOL!! And I think I'm like your friend Holly. I snort if lines get to cheesy. I admit, I did chuckle at a few of the lines in the TWilight movie. (ducking, running away from Sin's ninja stars).
Oh, dude, Holly and I BOTH snorted at some of the lines in Twilight, and unfortunately they were the lines that the author insisted on leaving in.
You know there is a reason why romance novels are rarely brought to the big screen with the literal dialogue from the book. I love the lush dialogue in my books, but hearing it out loud? My cynical heart bursts into laughter every time.
Reading the "lion and the lamb" line in Twilight is great; hearing it?--not so much.
Yeah, I think I snorted there. I think I outright chuckled when the tweenies in the audience sighed.
Cheesy is wasted on me, I suppose.
I'm more of a laugh-at-read and groan-at-spoken cheesy lines girl, myself. Unless, of course, the book warrants it. Then I'll probably cry. (I might cry at a movie, too, but I'll resent them for emotionally manipulating me into crying.)
@Q—I'm not too worried about Catholics issuing a fatwa against me ;) .
Laugh at read and groan at spoken. Perfect way to say it! :)
Marn - This first one is only 800 words so I figure to make everyone read it. LOL! The more feedback the better! And of course, yesterday when I wanted to work on it was the first day in a long time that I had work all day. Go figure.
I'm starting to get feeling back which is good as I'm not dribbling my tea down my chin. But that also means it's going to start hurting soon. Must get some Tylenol from the purse...
Oh, and I forgot my favorite refrain at cheesy lines: "NO GUY WOULD EVER SAY THAT!" (and then I look to DH for verification).
I like when they throw in one of those cheesy lines but then kind of acknowledge the cheesiness. Like in Music & Lyrics after he's said something really sweet, it's followed by these lines...
Sophie: That's wonderfully sensitive... especially from a man who wears such tight pants.
Alex: It forces all the blood to my heart.
Awh, Ter. I hope your mouth feels better soon. :( And I loved Music & Lyrics. Very cute movie.
chance - oh yeah, perfect line. I loved Ben in that movie. The scene where he's washing the dishes - I totally burst into tears (much to the shock of the poor guy sitting next to me *g*)
Q - I'm not in publishing - I do academic research for a university. My job's weird to explain - I teach, write, research and publish, but because I don't have a PhD, I'm not a professor. But that works for me, as I have no real desire to get the PhD *g*
I haven't read this book, but I've been freaking lately at hearing legendary "woman phrases" come out of my young daughter's mouth. Maybe this book should be required reading for all young girls. Anyone else think so?
Don't worry, Hal, all women burst into tears at the sight of a man washing dishes.
Ter - yay on good feedback!
I was worried about the movie too - I went with a bunch of girlfriends, one of whom is also married, and on our way there, we looked at each other and said, "I hope neither of us walk out of this realizing we need to immediately file for divorce" lol! But I thought it really turned into an uplifting movie (though it definitely had its cheesy moments!)
hells - LMAO! It was the sweetest gesture EVER!
Ah, but it was when he said, "And I started a load of laundry" that I was all, "This one is such a keeper."
yep - that cinched it. I cried even harder then :)
woohoo... fixed by commenting... ignore me now please.lol.
Okay, I see comments going up
(43 now) yet I can't view them. Why is that? I see up to 16. Weirdness... hmmmm...wonder if this will even go through.
That is weird, Tiff. I've never seen it do that. LOL! Glad you got through!
Haven't submitted so I haven't been rejected. I Haven't seen the movie or read the book! It looks like a rental to me. The only thing I remember about the book is the author being on Oprah a year or two ago - am I thinking about the right guy, here? He was pretty brutal on some women in the audience who were definitely looking through rose colored glasses when looking at their significant others.
I really, really love what Annie said about the difference between published and unpublished is giving up or not giving up. I really think that's so true. I can tell just by reading what everyone writes on this board that there is tremendous talent here. Now everyone just has to find that one person who is willing to give you a go... and unfortunately that takes perseverence.
Hellion - I had a long distance relationship for 6 years (my current DH)! The "hellos" and "goodbyes" were always very emotional and we joke all the time that we do vacations better than any other couple out there - that's pretty much when we spent all of our quality time together!
Irish - You give hope and inspiration for anyone trying to make the long-distance thing work. I'm betting that man was just smart enough to know he needed to do whatever it took to hold onto you.
Talk of rejection always makes me think of incredibly talented writers whose books I love, writers like Anna Campbell and Deanna Raybourn who persevered for years in the face of rejections. Just think what we as readers would have lost had they given up.
I have had poems and articles rejected. For me, the rejection always leaves a bruise, but a bruise is not a critical injury. In preparation for the bruises to come when I start querying, I have a line from Julia Ann Long taped to my computer screen: "Don't be too attached to outcomes and release expectations" ("The Tao of Publishing").
Terri - you are a sweetie! :) I have a whole theory on the long distance thing. I wouldn't have said so at the time but it was the best thing for our relationship. It gave me time to grow up, distance to make the heart grow fonder and perspective on what was really important.
Me and my sweetie spent a year apart. From high school he went into the Navy, Rhode Island. Hoped to get into Annopolis but did a year at the Naval Academy Perpatory School. This was nearly thiry years ago, so no internet. We wrote a lot of letters, once a week phone calls. And one in person visit.
We got to know each other really well in that year. then he resigned, came back and a year later we married.
Distance really can open opportunities for closeness.
Very true, 2nd! I feel as if I got to know my sweetie better long distance than I would have in person. I would have let superficial things get in my way. We became best friends way before we became anything more serious - and I think that's what saves us when the waters get real choppy! LOL
Irish - I think that perseverance is the key, honestly. Especially because the longer we write, the better we get. Before we know it, they won't be able to turn us down! :)
I did a long distance relationship for a few years. It was really difficult, especially as my then BF was at West Point and I was in college four hours away. It didn't help that I was a typical insecure girl and he was stressed and not the most consoling of sig others. We broke up in the long run, but I think it was a really difficult and trying time for both of us.
Janga - I love that quote from the Tao of Publishing. And you're right, it would have been horrible if Anna or Deanna had given up. I'm sure we all hope someone says the same for us someday.
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