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Jenny Penn Blogs About What Makes More, the Merrier!
The wild, exotic call of the unseen birds penetrated deep into the lush foliage where she crouched, straining to hear some small tell tale noise that she knew was hidden beneath the sounds of the jungles. They were out there, circling her, getting closer.
Her palms sweated, her breath shorted, her heart raced to catch up with her mind as she desperately tried to think herself out of this situation. She might be able to outmaneuver one, out think the other, but they were operating as a team. She’d never stood a chance. Not against both of them, not against the dark forbidden desires they inspired in her. Escape had never really been an option.
She glanced up, stilling as everything around her had. Deep, thick, heavy, the silence was the only warning she had…
Mmm, ménages, the feeling of being surrounded and hunted down by two powerful, virile men totally focused on capturing you and taking you to the pinnacle of sexual madness. To know that you could defend yourself against one, but against two…there will be no escaping the extreme ecstasy they intend on filling your nights, days and every degree of light in between with.
This is what a good ménage inspires in its readers. Fear, exhilaration, a taste of the exotic fruit and it’s all made safe because it’s only a book. I’m Jenny Penn, an avid reader of ménages and an erotic romance writer who specializes in writing ménages.
I get asked a lot of questions about ménages and I’ve been invited here to shine a little light on how to write one. What are the basics of a good ménage and how do they differ from a regular romance?
Strangely enough there really isn’t that much of a difference.
Yes, the sex can be a daunting task for a writer not accustomed to keeping track of so many bodies. With the way readers are beginning to gravitate toward ménage, it may seem like the sex is the most important element.
It’s not. We’re not writing Debby Does the Dallas Cowboys here. This is still a romance novel and at its heart the most important element is still the development of the romantic relationship between all the key players.
What makes a romance novel good? When the characters are so well written a reader can’t put it down and dreams that she is the heroine, that she is lucky enough to have a hero like that fall for her. With a ménage, the reader just gets more of that.
That means a good ménage requires an author to excel at characters and relationship development. It’s like juggling and you have to make sure that you keep everything in the air and moving in perfect harmony or you’ll end up with a character that’s not really included in the story and makes the reader wonder why she’s even there in the first place.
So how does a writer keep all three people involved? Personality.
We all know in real life that the way a person interacts with one individual is not the same that they relate to another. We show different sides of our personality based on the personality of the person we are dealing with.
Let me give you an example. Guy A is a charge forward, man of action kind of guy, who gets a little obnoxious when forced to slow down. Guy B is more thoughtful, sensible, slow, steady Eddie kind of guy.
Now when the heroine confronts Guy A, its all heat and passion, they might fight and have sarcastic verbal duels that always end with Guy A’s physical dominance taking control once she’s pushed him too far.
Guy B on the other hand is her confidant. He’s easy to talk to and she might find herself quickly confiding in him and seeking comfort in him, but he’s also easily outmaneuvered in a physical sense. Not to say that he’s a wimp, but he’d never push her up against a wall and force her to confront her desires.
And never forget that now you have Guy A and Guy B’s interaction. Guy A can goad Guy B into showing more of his Alpha side. Guy B can penetrate Guy A’s rough exterior to show is inner vulnerabilities.
Let me not understate the importance of this ingredient in a ménage. Scenes involving the two men are liking peeking into the men’s locker room. The reader gets an “in” to the heroes that they’d never get in a regular romance. Men do interact differently with each other than they do with women. Since both men are focused on the heroine, readers get to see that focus in its most pure, primal, masculine form and they love it.
Now the board is set. The reader can relate and develop a much deeper connection to all the characters because they are getting a full 360 view of their nature. The last thing we have to do as an author is bring all three together and let the sparks fly.
The beauty of this set up is that now as authors we don’t have to struggle to have our characters “develop” through the story or even grow. We don’t have to force them to be everything in one package, but can just allow them to be themselves. In a way, they’re more realistic despite the fact that the story is more fantastical.
This is what feeds the ménage market. A deeper association with the characters that allow the readers to be sucked even further into the fantasy the author is weaving. Of course, there is still the sex, but that, my friends, is a totally different conversation.
Okay, ‘lubbers and crew, what do you think? What questions do you have for Jenny, who so graciously braved writing about this topic? (I wouldn’t have dared!) If you do enjoy reading about a good ménage (and I have on occasion, the more, the merrier), do you agree with Jenny that a really effectively written one is more about personality than body parts? What do you think makes for an effective love scene? And what else that used to be taboo to find in romances are now becoming more and more acceptable? And I think we should give Jenny a round of applause for handling this topic so effectively!
Books by the Crew
37 comments:
Ah, dang it! I'm gonna be gone most all day and such a juicy topic!
I appreciate what you're saying Jenny, I'm working on a menage... Is it any different when writing that both men aren't soley interested in the woman, the find themselves attracted to each other also?
I would think when love is involved, who is who or what is what...doesn't matter...?
And yes, big round of drinks for Jenny, to brave the topic...
I'll be in much later to check the discussion out! Now, I restocked the bar...save me one, at least!
Adding rum to my tea in Jenny's honor...
I actually tried to write one of these. Shut your mouths, pirates. I may finish it someday just to say I could!
I have not attempted. I don't know if I ever will but I would never rule anything out.
I do agree that sex has to have a purpose in the plot. I don't want people to be able to skip my sex scenes without missing something important in the plot.
Very brave to attempt this topic, Jenny.
And welcome aboard!! *passes her some rum*
I agree, when love is involved, who is who, et al. In abstract. I'm not sure I'd be too game to read about it.
Although that's pretty much why I've not attempted one of these scenes. I do read them; and I do marvel at the author's ability to draw me into the character's feelings and make it something not "squicky" (I'm not sure that's a word, but I think you know what I mean.) Though, those I've read haven't had 2nd Chance's theory in play. (I'm thinking Anita Blake series here. Anita usually has two guys--well, nowadays, it seems that way--and usually they're very much more into Anita rather than the possiblity of each other. Then again, there's that theory that EVERYONE wants Anita--that's the running joke. BUT I think that's how that fantasy best plays, too. As the reader, you want to put yourself in the role/world of the heroine who is so desirable EVERYONE wants to sleep with her. And they're all willing to take a number.)
I don't know if I could read menages where this unspoken 'guideline' wasn't there. It breaks the fantasy of being overtaken by two alpha sorts. Being powerless, torn, and forbidden. I think there is room for all sorts of authored menages though...there are more readers than me. *LOL* And not all of them have the fear that if she had two really hot men in bed, they'd be far more interested in each other than her--and it showed. *LOL*
This is the most fanstatical blog ever! Jenny, I need to read more of this. You are a tease in the worst way!
I'm all for more the merrier. But for me, the personality and temperment have to be there between the characters for me to enjoy the rest of the story. I need my Alpha to be strong and be willing to pitch the heroine against the wall and make her say exact how she feels. I need the confident that the heroine doesn't see looking at her with a fire that could consume her if she'd only give him a spark of hope. I need all that to enjoy the sex. I can't just read sex for sex. I mean I could, but it's not as satisfying in the end.
Ugh, Anita Blake. The most glittery hooha of them all.
Maggie! Really? I've always wanted to attempt to write one but I can barely keep track of one man in bed, I don't want to see how bad it will be with two from my imagination. Someone will end up smelling someone's feet on accident or something.
Hi Jenny, welcome aboard.
I'm surprised the sparks haven't been igniting the sails yet!
Afraid I haven't read much erotic fiction but the idea of a menage a trois (do you also go up to 4?....guess it might need a big bed!) does sound naughtily intriguing. I'm trying to visualise the love aspect but have difficulty imagining two guys in love with one woman and sharing the same bed....wouldn't there be extreme jealousy with possible fisticuffs?
Perhaps you could recommend a starter book. Something gentle with a HEA that a sensitive romantic guy like me could cope with. Do you also consider two women and one guy by the way...now that sounds a little more realistic. Ladies never fight in bed.
Or am I getting confused with Harem stories. :?
If the sex scenes were removed, would one still have a viable romance? I have seen such cases in real life where the deserving person is bitterly disappointed and the rogue wins the gal.
I have enough problems writing two characters. I can't imagine what it takes to add another.
Kudos on the blog. It was like drinking Red Bull, I think I got my wings.
Renee
I am so thrilled the glittery hooha made it for the fourth day running! Yeah!
And I'm totally laughing at Renee! *LOL* Who totally got her wings...
Q, darling, I read about a skilled author who wrote a...I'm not sure the term but it was four men and one very masterful girl, apparently. Personally I thought it sounded more like a drawing and quartering, but being I didn't read the story, that's pure speculation. I'm sure it worked, actually. But I bet she needed a very long nap afterwards.
*cocking eyebrow* Ladies never fight in bed? You're one of those blokes who think we have pillow fights when we do sleepovers and practice french kissing on each other, don't you? Poor man. Think carefully. Two women, one Johnny Depp (or Gerard Butler) in bed--you telling me they're not FIGHTING? You must be kidding.
Personally I don't think I could ever be in bed with another *lady* and a guy. It would have to be two guys. I don't share well.
I was so going to make the glittery hooha comment. Damn Sin beat me to it!
I haven't read a manage but that's only because I have a MILLION books waiting on my TBR. I think there are a couple in there with the threesome thing going one. I did read a Lacey Alexander where the girl is taking care of her guy (orally) in a limo while taking care of two other guys (handily) at the same time. Seems like a lot of focus would be needed.
I can't imagine writing one, but only because of the skill clearly required. This is a great description of how important the characterization is to make it work. I applaud anyone who can pull this off and do it well. Clearly I need to pick up one of Jenny's books and move it to the top of the TBR pile.
Last year an editor from Samhain said they were looking for stories with as many as five men and one woman in a love scene. As I can't figure out how to keep all those people busy (though I guess having the men into each other opens all kinds of doors... ;) ) I don't think I'll be attempting that either.
Hellion!
Of course I don't think that you have pillow fights!
But no guy is going to lie still while two women fight over him.
He would discourse and urge them to be rational and take equal turns.
See, I didn't get a PhD for nothing *g*
Sin, you disappoint me. I was starting to imagine Hellion and all the crew with a poor lonely man waiting expectantly. I hadn't thought that you would be drawing lots!
I found Emma Holly does a fabulous job at two men, one women...with everyone wanting everyone. I'm thinking "Strange Attractors" "Attractions" ... ? I think that's the title...something like that.
I always won the pillow fights, had a mondo heavy pillow. Oh, knocking out the other girl isn't the idea???
Sorry to say, I got lost in the Anita stories about the time she broke up with Richard. More sex than plot...good sex, but still!
Q? I believe with you, there would be logical discourse. Or at least the attempt at logical discourse. I sail another course... :) Logic has nothing to do with it!
I have written the four or more in bed stuff, more about the love and touch than the heave and ho...or heave and how.
Glittery Hooha! There, I got to say it! (Write it...whatever...) Off to my DDS...groan.
Q- don't despair, honey. I can make exceptions. ;) I wouldn't want to ruin that image you have of me and all my debauchery.
Hey Chance,
The only real difference, besides the sex, when writing a menage where the men have a intimate relationship with each other is that you have even more "relationship" to explore. You can be called out by readers and reviewers if the mens' relationship doesn't read true and it just sounds like you added it in for "kink" factor.
There has to be a firm connection among the men, something that shows the depth of their emotion beyond a "just friends" level.
I will say that Shayla Black has a book out through EC, Dangerous Boys and Their Toy, which I think is excellently written. It takes two alpha males, one who has former experience in a m/m sexual experiment, and one who you would never think would go that way. Shayla really does a great job of developing the emotional aspect of their connection that ultimately flows into a sexual relationship you'd never think would occur when you first start to read the book.
Jenny
Hey Maggie,
Thanks for the welcome.
Jenny
Q, my man, women are very logical...but it's woman logic as opposed to male logic, which doesn't make a lot of sense to us at times. There are certain logic absolutes that are the same regardless, but I'm thinking in the bedroom, the absolutes are not the primary logic discussions.
So therefore, you, a lone man, are using your male logic to bring two women, both in possession of woman logic, to a sort of agreement... Boy, you ARE an optimist! Oh, wait, I think I did see Owen Wilson do this in a movie once...okay, it might be able to be done...
Hey Marnee,
I have to say that a lot of authors I know who are trying to catch the menage trend are having problems. Not so much with writing the books, but fear of what their family, friends, or co-workers will say when they find out. They also get hung up on their own preconceived notions about menage.
One of the first things an author who is going to try a menage has to do is get over themselves. If you don't love what you are writing or you have "concerns" about its nature, it come through in the book. It will break the spell you are weaving over the reader and make them as uncomfortable as the writer was while writing it.
I don't ever suggest that any author write something they don't "feel" just to follow a trend.
Jenny
PS a lot of times when I re-read a romance, I skip the sex. I love the before sex scenes, the power and intensite in the build up of emotion.
Speaking of skipping sex scenes, I know several women who claim to skip them, that they just read the book for, well the story. Isn't that kind of the same as buying Playboy for the articles? I'd love to run a poll to see how many actually read the sex scenes and claim not to.
Renee
Hey Hellion,
When reading your comment I had a flash back to a Sex and the City episode where Samantha agrees to have sex with two gay guys. It doesn't go well because they are more into each other than her.
That can't happen in a romance novel, so our males are always bi-sexual in nature. I would say that one thing that makes m/m/f work is that the sex scenes are about pleasure, to be take from all sources.
I don't mean to be crude, but having too men who are not uncomfortable with touching does allow for more imaginitive play in the "bedroom". When I write menages where there are brothers involved with one woman, you always have to make sure there is not "inappropriate" touching by the men which can be kind of limiting.
In a way, having the two men involved makes the story go easier. For instance, why would two men share a woman? Now this is a question that I normally skip in my books with a simple, that's just the way they are, but it might linger in the readers mind on occassion.
The question doesn't factor to any great degree if the men are involved and simply want to expand their relationship to include a third.
In writing any romance novel, m/f, m/f/m, m/m/f or even m/m/m or m/m, the author has to pick a main character over all the other leads to be the focus, the one they want the reader to identify with as themselves. Despite all the other parts and pieces to the story, this is the character the story revolves around, which makes the reader think the story is revolving around them. That makes for a happy reader.
I think that could be a golden rule of writing.
Jenny
Hey Sin,
Thanks for the welcome.
I have to say that your comments are an echo of my own when I try to explain to people that menage isn't totaly about kinky sex. If it were, then we'd be talking pure erotica.
The nice thing about menage is that you can temper your alpha characters so they don't fall off the edge into jerkville. While both men can be alpha, one can be prone to more rash reactions and the other more of a plotter.
When rash does what rash does and bends the heroine over her desk at the office for a quick spank and a frantic screwing to get out all the pent-up emotions the heroine has evoked in him, its the plotter who will point out that wasn't a wise thing to do and rash should have dragged her off the privacy of a bedroom where they could have tied her to the bed and punished her properly.
Laugh if you want, but this a perfectly normal situation in a good menage. This gives the reader not only the thrill of dating a strong man who might do just about anything, anywhere, at anytime, but also of the most dangerous beast in the forest, the calculating alpha.
It also gives the reader a chance to watch two alphas clashing over how to tame or control their woman. It's a sort of twist on the two men fighting over you thrill, because once the battle settles, the heroine isn't going to have to choose.
Jenny
Ah, yes, the Golden Rule of "Who does the story belong to?" since though the hero and heroine will probably both grow in the novel, there is always one who does it, well, a bit more...and therefore, it's more their story.
Okay, I'm told that's just me. My Bo'sun does not agree with this theory in any way.
Sin, that is what editors are for. I have been called out before by an editor that said, 'that's not physically possible'. Though I've never had a character ending up smelling another feet, I would point out that toe sucking seemed to be a "thing" I heard about a while back.
Seriously though, one way that I handle sex with so many bodies to remain true to POV. With good sex (in a book) the characters are not so aware of positions. Taken from the heroines point of view she might oly be aware of having a mouth at her breast driving her insane while another is burried between her legs. A hero will be focused more on how soft her skin is and how sweet she tastes.
The more you try to describe the scene as a three deminsional act, her leg bent like this, his arm over here, a there, the more you'll pull the reader out of the emotion of the scene.
The best way that I know how to write a sex scene, and I've been complimented on mine, is to go deep into a characters POV.
Set the scene up in your mind, what is going to happen. The scene: a heroines first anal penetration. Don't think you can write a menage and avoid this ladies, I know some who have and the story will disappoint - the double stack is expected in a menage.
Okay so she's going to have a guy behind her and pushing into her in a way that's not particularly comfortable. We're going to mediate that with having the second guy using his mouth on her...glittering hooha (interesting term, ladies) to keep her happy.
Now you know the fundamentals of the scene you are about to write. Close your eyes and imagine what it feels like to the heroine. That is what you actually write.
Deep POV is a skill any writer should strive to attain. It enhances the entire book, even the most mundane scenes, but in a sex scene deep POV can caterpualt the intensity straight through the roof and the reader will never wonder, worry or question the litle details, like technical positioning.
No more need to worry about smelling somebody's foot.
Jenny
Don't be speakin' fer me up there! I do agree. Now. LOL! Hey, I can grow just as much as the characters we write.
I'm going to have to sit down and process that double stack thing. Not that I have a problem with *that*, I've just never heard it called that.
And our guest has officially used the term "glittery hooha". The day is complete.
BTW - it worked in that description beautifully. I love the way you describe that. No wonder you're so good at writing these scenes. Thanks for bringing this topic to the ship!
Hey Quantum,
Let's see. Yes, I'm working on a story that has four men and a woman. Normally menages are just two men, but I have one out already that is three.
I always laugh when people ask me about the jealousy aspect of menages. It's there if the author puts it there. As authors we all know we are attempting to suspend reality for our readers and take them into our world, the rules set by us.
So while in real life jealousy would be a very big hurdle, in a book it gets swept asside. I actually had a paranormal romance writer once tell me she didn't do menages because they were so unrealistic. LOL
As for f/f/m, honestly I don't touch it. F/f books are not that big in the erotic romance market. Not to say there isn't a market for them. Authors like Beth Wylde (I think it's her) specialize in them. Still, the mainstead of the romance readership is hetrosexual females who are much more likely to respond negatively to having to share a man with another woman - that's not really a strong trend in female fantasies.
Even authors such as Lora Leigh with her Men of August series, tend to run into attitude when they have a female sharing "her" man. I never read past the first book in the series, but I saw an interview with the great LL and she explained that she had to write a fourth book for the series just to bring an end to the "sharing" because of so many letters/emails from her fans.
As for removing the sex scenes from a menage and still having a viable romance novel - yes, if the book is well written. It would just be a much shorter book. I wouldn't lie and say that sex doesn't sell erotic romance novels and menage is firmly held in the embrace of this sub-genere.
Truthfully readers buy erotic romances because they want a high degree of sex in their book, but if that was all they were looking for, they'd buy true erotica which leaves out the HEA and committed relationships between primary characters.
Jenny
I have to agree with Hellion. I'm not a violent person, but if you want to see psycho let me find you in bed with my man - not that it has ever happened, but I still know how I would respond.
Actually, I did something really mean to a past boyfriend. I worked on a military base in a retail shop that was all female. My boyfriend at the time would come in and the other women would be too nice to him, so I told them all he was a like a monkey - had hair all the way down his back and over his ass. I told them that he was cheap and his idea of taking me out to dinner was a run through the drive thru at Micky D's.
Yeah, I trahsed him pretty bad and put all those b's back on the leash. Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do to protect what is yours.
Strangely he thought it was pretty funny - and he was very hairy.
Jenny
Hey Renee,
I have to confess that one of my favorite authors is Jayne Anne Kernz. I know, but I love her books and truthfully I don't know how many times I've thought to write her and beg for her to actually write a sex scene that stems past her customary three paragraphs. She is the queen of "Wham-Bam-Thank-You-Mam'". Despite that, I still love her books. So I guess sex isn't why I read all romances.
Jenny
Jenny is now my new best friend.
I'm frantically scribbling notes at my desk and glancing over my shoulder to make sure no one is watching.
I love the way you differeniated between the two alphas (the rash and the plotter). I never thought to think of it that way. I'm a definite alpha fan and will usually take my alpha anyway I can get him *g* but a lot of writers seem to write them and wuss them out at the end. *sigh* I guess I just see my alpha character in a book to be a man who gives in but doesn't lose himself in the process and at the end of most romance novels, the glittery hooha has whooped the alpha into a beta who worships at the alter that is the glittery hooha.
I didn't make that term up. I swear it. I go on a quick va-ca and I come back to all sorts of terminology chaos.
Hey, guys, I'm going to put this up in the blog too...but I wanted to put it here too. Jenny has a book coming out Monday, from BookStrand (which brought us the fabulous Burning Bridges by Anne Krist): Taming Samantha.
http://www.jennypenn.com/
Jenny definitely practices what she preaches! Menage...alpha males...I mean, can they get more alpha than being werewolves? Holy cow!
*fanning self* Holy smokes!
*blinking*
I think my face is hot.
Hey Sin,
I hate that too. When a strong man falls, that's not really the fantasy I have of a man. I think its actually easier in menage to avoid this pitfall.
As real people we know that there are many aspects to our personalities, but often characters in a book are played out as two deminsional. You find a lot of writers who "bend" their characters on the disquise of "growing" them to make them more "rounded" and bring a resolution to the story.
In a way with menages you can avoid that pitfall, the third member in the group does allow the reader a more three deminisional veiw of the other characters.
After all what creates a character is their actions, words/thoughts and what other characters think of them. With a third character involved in the relationship, you get twice as much exposure, allowing the author to temper the more exagerated stereotype of an alpha while not reducing him to a beta.
Jenny
Yeah, Taming Samantha is mine. I hope it does well, but I always keep my expectations really low - that way I'm happy no matter what.
Silly, huh?
Jenny
It's going to do great!
Thanks Sin. It's getting late and I thought I would just check one more time to make sure I hadn't rudely ignored anybody who had posted.
I wanted to thank you guys for inviting me on board today. IT's been fun, but now it's time to sleep.
Jenny
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