Thursday, April 7, 2011
Differences in Genre
There's a character in my book who's got a gambling problem. He's not a particularly lucky gambler. Sort of your run of the mill gambler. Sometimes he wins, sometimes he loses. He borrows money against his pay--for a steep price--just to be able to go back to the tables. He knows that he's got a problem, but every time he finds himself in a hard spot in his life, he finds himself back at it. Dice, cards, anything.Gambling makes Jack feel like he's got control over his life. He is the one who chooses how much he spends or doesn't. In his mind, the risks he takes are his risks, not the unpredictable consequences of other people.
When I think of Jack, I don't think of weakness. But my story is a Regency, a genre I equate with gambling, drinking, parties and general debauchery.
If my story were set in contemporary times, and this character was going to the casinos at every opportunity, I'm not sure what I would think of him.
The same thing about drinking. In historical novels, I feel like every hero is running around with a snifter of brandy and a cheroot. Or some other libation. But if the average hero in a contemporary or a romantic suspense was turning to liquor all the time, I wonder if I'd find him as heroic.
In historicals right now, there's a glut of courtesans and mistresses. Lightskirts practically trickle from their pages. I have one in my MS. But I rarely see a prostitute as a heroine in contemporary novels.
Why do you think it's okay--from a reader acceptance standpoint--for some things to be in one genre but not in another? Sometimes, I think that it might be because we attribute historical settings with very clear patriarchal constructs. Perhaps, to readers, it's okay for men to turn to gambling or drink. Maybe, if a woman turns to prostitution, it seems more understandable because she has less control over her situation.
There are authors who buck these trends, of course. JR Ward had a contemporary prostitute heroine, for example. But these are exceptions, not norms.
Does this bother you? Are there other differences in genre that you notice? Some you like, some you think are necessary or unnecessary?
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Sorry this is a bit late girls and guys. I got back from Florida yesterday. I thought I'd have plenty of time last night but it didn't work out that way. :(
How was Florida, Marn? Thank goodness it's finally warming up, or I might have been forced to head in that direction myself.
It's funny, I don't think of the Regency period as gambling, drinking, parties and general debauchery. That's the Georgian period to me. I think of the Regency as very proper, though the rogues did still have their fun.
As soon as you mentioned the prostitute heroine in a contemp I thought of the movie Pretty Woman which was a hit, but I'm still not a fan of that kind of story. To make it work in a book, she'd probably have to be a high class call girl with only the richest clientele? Takes a bit of the ICK! out when it comes to what she might have caught. (Too early to get that graphic?)
Gambling was a big part of the Regency period. They bet on EVERYTHING. LOL And the timeframe is actually a bridge between the wilder Georgians and the more repressive Victorians, so there's still plenty of shenanigans. I think that happens whenever you have people with lots of money and too much time on their hands.
I think this is an interesting topic, Marn, and I'm going to come back in a minute when my brain has been fortified with caffeine. :)
Ohh, great questions, Marn! I think Donna hit on something about Regency characters usually having way too much money, and way too much spare time.
But you're right - I would expect a modern character who drank as much or gambled as much as a Regency character to be having some real frank discussions about addiction. And as much as I loved Pretty Woman, the modern-day hooker-turned-Cinderella storyline isn't one I could read very often. Yet I read it in Regencies all the time.
Ter - Florida was awesome. We went to the beach, we went to the zoo. We hung out. It was pretty relaxing--even with the kids. :) And the weather was much nicer than it is here right now.
As to the prostitute thing and the ick factor, I think that's one of the things that gets glossed over in all romance, honestly. Those rakes would have been carrying all kinds of stuff, I'd imagine. But I think most people find syphilis to be unromantic. Who knew?
And you're not a fan of the rags to riches story. Or just not a fan of the prostitute aspect/courtesan aspect in romance right now?
Donna - I think that happens whenever you have people with lots of money and too much time on their hands. So true. :)
I think gambling takes different forms too. I grew up with a very entrepreneurial father. Part of the reason he was successful was because of his love of gambling, the thrill of "what happens if I do this?"
I'm not sure I'm making sense today. I need coffee too.
But I think most people find syphilis to be unromantic. Who knew?
Best quote of the day so far. This is going to get fun.
Hal - I think that's a good point. Today, we see this stuff as addiction and as something that requires rehab and counseling.
And the Cinderella story line is one of my favorites in historicals too. But I flirted briefly with an idea about a contemporary call girl heroine. I tried to think of how I'd do it and then shied away from the plot entirely. It seemed so tricky.
I wonder if it's because we see historical women as having only a few options to support themselves. Yet contemp women are seen in almost every field. So when we as a culture look at prostitutes, we assume they had other choices and disapprove (as a general) of them choosing prostitution if they had other choices.
Just thinking. Not sure if I'm even coherent.
Best quote of the day so far. This is going to get fun.
hahaha!!! :)
My problem with Pretty Woman was probably more that they glossed over the real point, as you say. By the end it seemed more like he'd found her being a check out girl at the local IGA than on the corner wearing thigh-high boots.
She was a good-hearted prostitute, but still a prostitute. And not exactly a high-class one at that. How that HEA will actually work is never really addressed in the movie.
For me, I can totally accept and believe the courtesans and mistresses in historicals because I feel like it was a time when women had very few choices in certain situtations, unlike today. That's also why it wouldn't work for me in contemps.
The drinking/gambling thing is something I will have to think on more. But I do think it the drinking doesn't bother me as much in contemps as I thought it would. I mean I buy my hubby spirits that he drinks 1 a night and I wouldn't think it a bad thing in a character. Now, if it was 8am and he was drunk, that might be a different story.
DRD get me some caffeine too.
And I've been trying to comment for 45 minutes, at least. I've totally forgot where I was going to take my comment. It was something about rampant STDs and usage of prostitutes and courtesans back in the day.
I don't see anything wrong with contemp characters having a beer after work or kicking some back on a Saturday night. I've written trashed heroines and I have a future heroine who is actually an alcoholic. I'd actually be more surprised to find an alcoholic heroine in an historical, though I know it's been done.
Characters are people and people in all time periods often looked for an escape. Or maybe an easy fix to a tough situation. You make the motivation clear and the character credible, and I'm with you.
Slightly off topic, but I have to yell this somewhere.
I put my pitch in a blog comment yesterday for a Carina Press editor and IT GOT A FULL REQUEST!!!
Holy shit, I can't believe it.
Yay!! Bo'sun that's f*cking AWESOME!
Sometimes writing makes me feel like I need to be an alcoholic.
I've written characters with drug addictions and trying to rehab and relapsing. There were opium dens and gambling hells and mass amounts of alcohol being consumed back in the day. I've seen more of the alcoholic/drug addiction thing explored in mysteries than romances. I think that would be the biggest difference to me now. It's romanticized in historical novels. Gritty and gruesome detailed in mysteries. I love historicals (courtesans and prostitute stories, mistresses, addictions (Love, love, love Charlotte Featherstone's stories)). Being human is dirty. Life is dirty.
WAHOO Bo'sun! Was that the one pitching to Gina? There were a ton of pitches on there and I must have missed seeing yours! AWESOME!
Terri, congrats! That is so exciting!
Scape - That's it! I literally made it in just under the wire!
Thanks, Ladies!
The deadline to post your pitch was midnight last night and I think I got it in around 11:50. LOL! I'm in total shock. Heh.
You're right, Sin, life is dirty. I appreciate the stuff that gets glossed over in Romance (periods, bowel movements, flatulence LOL!) but some of the grittier stuff can make the story better.
Yes, to a degree it bothers me. *LOL* Though I'm way more accepting of a hero who drinks and smokes and has a courtesan than I would if it were a contemporary.
I think the reasons for me accepting it are:
1.) If I was reading about a hero who didn't drink, didn't smoke, didn't fool around, I would immediately think he was a Prig--and I don't find that heroic either. I would consider that sort of character a blowhard, and I would rather have a Bad Boy (the sinning, drinking, smoking rogue) than a Puritan. I think the fantasy works more that a Bad Boy will reform for the right girl, but a Prig will ALWAYS be a Prig. And the sex will suck.
2.) Similar to the first (connected to the Fantasy aspect), we're so far removed from the Regency period, we don't know what it would really be like to live there. Therefore the less tempting parts (i.e. syphilis, dental care, childbirth, lack of indoor plumbing, quack doctors and lack of antibiotics), don't enter our mind much since we really couldn't imagine a world without these things. I mean, I have a father who lived without a lot of this stuff--but I didn't--and because I didn't, I don't have to think about it much. However, I do live in the modern world. I know what works and what doesn't; I know and experience societal mores and expectations--and if any contemporary novel flies in the face of that, it's much easier to abandon the book, be jerked out of the fantasy. We know too much about this world, about our world. The only thing most of us know about the Regency period are a few key historical tidbits we look up and Colin Firth from Pride & Prejudice. We focus on the romantic and not the reality. We live too much in this world to focus only on the romantic aspects.
Shout it, Bo'sun! Shout it! That's great news!!!
Congrats Ter!!!! How awesome!
Scape - I think what you said about the having options thing is what I think about prostitutes in contemp versus historical. The one I read from JR Ward, the prostitute was running from a mafia husband, I think. So, she was underground and didn't have the choice of having a legitimate job.
And the alcohol thing is the same, too. Drunk at 8Am in a novel would need some really strong motivation.
Ter - By the end it seemed more like he’d found her being a check out girl at the local IGA than on the corner wearing thigh-high boots.
hahaha! So true! And you're right. She had a heart of gold, almost like she wasn't touched by what happened to her. It is probably good the movie stopped there.
CONGRATS on the full request too! That's awesome. :) Hooray! Rum all around!
Be back in a sec to continue. I need to go pick up the eldest DS.
Interesting idea...what is acceptable and what isn't in any genre. Friend here at RT was ranting last night about how young adults can be pitted against each other in gladiator contests, ie, Hunger Games, but they can't have sex. Even if they love each other and it's 'true love.'
As with all things, it shifts. What is tabboo this season may be all the rage in another. Strong courtesans? Check! Five years later? Nope, has to be troulbed and downtrodden.
Acceptance and norm is a fickle friend!
Yeah, Terri! And I had an awesome time yesterday and my panel with Cherry and Katharine was a blast. I lost my voice... About 60 people attended! Whoohoo!
Wish I could have been there to see it, Chance! How did they like their perch pirate hats??
Katharine loved hers but it kept slipping off, very fine hair. Cherry loved it and then tried to give it away and I wouldn't let her. Said I wanted to see her wearing it during the conference... She laughed, thought I was nuts... She was really funny. No one could get her trivia questions from her books and she was offended, or playing offended...it was funny!
And I told her Leslie has an orange kia... Her eyes lit with avarice.
She tried to give it away?? LOL! After you went through all that trouble to make it for her? She is silly. And I can just imagine her playing offended, though it would be hard to tell if she was playing or not.
Pause for another Squee for Terri!!
Squeee!!!
Sin - that's what I love about your writing. You don't hesitate to get right in on the dirty stuff. I love stories like that. It's not all light out there. :)
Hells - I think the fantasy works more that a Bad Boy will reform for the right girl, but a Prig will ALWAYS be a Prig. And the sex will suck. hahaha!! A prig will always be a prig. LOL!
But you're right. I think the thrill of "a guy will change for the right gal" is part of the fantasy of romance. I hadn't thought of that. :)
We focus on the romantic and not the reality. We live too much in this world to focus only on the romantic aspects.
I wouldn't be able to read a contemporary that was completely glossy. The historicals do lend more toward fairy tales than contemporaries, don't they? I know I wrote into my current MS about a couple in a gin house who had their child with them. I know stuff like that happened because the poor loved gin back then and would they have had child care to go drink at the bar? Nope, probably not. In fact, there are accounts of parents giving their kids gin to keep them quiet. Sort of like in the Middle East how families give their children opium to keep them quiet while the family works. So the entire family is addicted. It's ugly stuff. But I wonder if the average Regency reader will scoff at a detail like that? Dunno.
Chance - I hope you're having a ball at RT! And I hope you're taking notes so you can share all of it when you get back. :)
Friend here at RT was ranting last night about how young adults can be pitted against each other in gladiator contests, ie, Hunger Games, but they can’t have sex. Even if they love each other and it’s ‘true love.’
Ugh, this is an annoying one. When I taught HS, the seniors read and analyzed a book a semester. One semester it was Samurai's Garden, a Japanese love story. (If you haven't read, look it up. I liked the book a lot). There were references to sex in the book, but nothing overly explicit. Another semester we read All's Quiet on the Western Front. Talk about gore and gruesome war novel.
Guess which story got parents riled up? We had calls about the sexual references but nothing about how All's Quiet was so violent. I think as a culture we're more tolerant of killing and violence than we are to love and sex, even though one is natural and the other, I'd argue, isn't.
So glad your panel went well, Chance! I saw your email but I've been running around, trying to put my life back together after vacation. I need a vacation from recovering from my vacation.
Not a book a semester; a book a marking period. Four a year. I need more coffee.
I know I wrote into my current MS about a couple in a gin house who had their child with them.
I'd believe that unless we found out that they had older children. It always amazes me how young parents would leave their babies with. Though I suppose the average 7 year old in this era was a hell of a lot older than the 7 year old nowadays. Thank God for the modern era.
And yes, I'd say 99% of what's published for a Regency is fairy tale esque. Then again, the argument could be made that percentage is also true for contemporaries too. Come on, a good looking rakish CEO falls in love with his plump, invisible secretary? When has that happened?
And I have squee-worth news. How cool! LOL!
Thanks, Marn!
That taking their kid to the gin house was still going on in the last century. LOL! My grandfather regularly took my mom to the bar with him in the 50s. Propped her right up on the bar.
We definitely want the fairy tale, whatever the genre or time period, though it's ironic that original fairy tales were often very dark and violent. Before they were Disney-fied and PC'd up.
Bo'sun~ Congrats!! So excited for you!
I think in historicals it is easier to accept a mistress or courtesan because often they didn't marry for love.
Di
Thanks, Di. And that's a good point. What is the difference between a courtesan and a woman who marries a weathly, titled man because of his money? At least one is being honest about things.
Speaking of PC'd up. At my sister's house, they had the Dr. Seuss book, The Better Butter Battle I'd never read it, but it was all about these people having a war over whether it was better to butter their bread on the upside or bottomside. It was quite disturbing, and there were all these weapons. Made me wonder if Dr. Seuss just woke up all cranky one day. A marked difference from Cat and the Hat, that's for sure.
What is the difference between a courtesan and a woman who marries a weathly, titled man because of his money? At least one is being honest about things.
Very well said.
What is the difference between a courtesan and a woman who marries a weathly, titled man because of his money?
A reputation.
But that's another thing we don't really get anymore. A lot of stigmas are being knocked down: single mothers/unwed mothers, homosexuality, interracial marriages--100 years ago, much of that would be punished, if not "legally" than by the society you were living in. Well, it's not unlike the Teen Bullying we have now...but I assume the bullying was age wide. :)
it was all about these people having a war over whether it was better to butter their bread on the upside or bottomside.
Disturbing, but as usual, spot on for Dr. Seuss to point out the ridiculousness of humans in general. If you break down what we fight most about, it's about as relevant as whether it is better to butter your bread upside or bottomside. (Or put your toilet paper to roll over or under.)
The paper must roll over. Just sayin'...
When I said what's the difference, I meant in the context of accepting these characters in a romance novel. We never bat an eye at a heroine (of the Ton) marrying for money and not love, yet some would have trouble with a courtesan heroine attempting to leave her old life behind for love.
I get that one is more plausible during the time period, but for the sake of strictly reading about these characters, there isn't much difference.
I wouldn’t be able to read a contemporary that was completely glossy.
And I wouldn't be able to read anything that was too dark or heavy. LOL I know the things you mentioned about the gin places is true, and I have a tendency to steer away from things that focus more on the darker side of life.
BUT THAT'S MY PREFERENCE.
It doesn't mean the book isn't right. In fact, I think we do ourselves more harm as writers when we worry too much about whether or not a story element will be palatable, or well-received. You can't shortchange your story.
Something will always bother somebody. LOL
I haven't read her, but would Macomber books be considered glossy? They are hugely popular, of course. All of this is a matter of preference. I used to read RS constantly, haven't read it in years. I was a fan of the Romances of the 80s, couldn't read one now I'm sure. As Chance mentioned, what's acceptible/popular today probably won't be in five years.
Something will always bother somebody. Amen *waves hanky*
The paper must roll over. Just sayin’…
AMEN! *another hanky wave*
A lot of stigmas are being knocked down
Unfortunately, a lot of legislation is being enacted to bring them back. :(
But that's all I will say of a political nature.
Glossy is in the eye of the beholder. LOL
Don't worry, Donna. The people in charge now will screw up soon enough and the legislation will overturn again. What's important is that we're not regressing at a pace of once again tossing women who get knocked up into insane asylums and giving up their bastard child for adoption--or publicly killing a gay man in the streets but no one saw anything. (Okay, I think the latter still happens too often for comfort, as does other insanely criminal things...but I still think we're better than we were 50 years ago and it will continue.)
So true. LOL!
Hellie - I think you've taken over the Pollyanna role for the day. Even I'm not THAT optimistic about this current situation.
How can you not be optimistic? You don't even watch the news! *LOL* And I can be optimistic because I'm thinking long term historically. I take comfort that Cotton Mather is spinning in his grave at the condition of morals in America now. *LOL*
Hellie – I think you’ve taken over the Pollyanna role for the day. Even I’m not THAT optimistic about this current situation.
LOL -- I *want* to agree with you, Hellie, but I really can't. Not when I see so much new legislation trying to put women back fifty years or more. I can't even comment on the latest one I saw redefining "rape".
I do watch the news! National news, read online, listen to NPR. And I get lots from Charlie Rose and The Daily Show. A nice balance.
We can't get all politicky on here because that never ends well, but I'm with ya, Donna. LOL!
And I'm actually encouraged that Hellie is optimistic. Someone should be!
I don't want to get all politicky, that's for sure. It's a minefield. Heck, we all feel differently about BOOKS. LOL But I like that optimistic side of Hellie. Makes me all warm and fuzzy. :)
Giant minefield. And this ship isn't equipped to defuse those things.
LOL -- now I'm thinking of those cannonballs hitting the water in the POTC ride at Disneyland.
Okay, I'm off to write again. I got 3 hours of longhand writing yesterday--gonna see if I can do the same today.
Reputation was everything back then. In some ways, I'm glad that's not the case now. But, sometimes, I wish people did care more about what they throw out for the world to see. Maybe it would stop some of the general nastiness I see towards strangers these days. Or the nastiness on the internet. But I'm glad that I haven't been judged too harshly when I made a mistake. Reputation is a double edged sword, isn't it?
As to politics.... Back back, ladies. Let's leave that alone. :)
I think according to the implied definition of "glossy" that Charlotte Bronte and George Eliot would have applied the adjective to the novels of Jane Austen. I think it's a reader's term. The writer is free to make her/his own choices.
I agree that casting a prostitute as the heroine in a contemporary romance is far more difficult for a writer of contemporaries because women--even poor women--have more choices now. I can think of several contemporaries that have female characters who have been prostitutes, exotic dancers, or nude models in their pasts. In each case the character's choices have been severely limited--teenage runaways on the street, a single mother with little education and no support system, and in all cases the character has moved past that period in her life.
Sqeeeeee! Yay, Ter! That's wonderful news!
Janga - I think that the choices thing does make things difficult in contemporaries. As always, I believe there are things that could make it work--the heroine has a child, for instance, as I think a mom is pretty much allowed to do anything to protect a child--but I think it's a tough one.
Had to share this! Check out our lovely Chance at RT! Her pic is making the twitter rounds :)
http://twitpic.com/4i177o
I love that coat! And the hat. She's going to make me one of those, so we'll be sporting them in Atlanta later this year.
Good thing she's driving and not flying. I have a feeling she's going home with a TON of shit.
That is a fine coat. You ladies will look awesome at the next conference!! :) Will yours be red?
I put my pitch in a blog comment yesterday for a Carina Press editor and IT GOT A FULL REQUEST!!!
Holy shit, I can’t believe it.
Bo'sun: Chiming in late, but...Congratulations! That's awesome.
As for gambling...I reckon it's already been mentioned but it wasn't like there were a lot of entertainment choices back in the day, were there? (I dunno. No good w/the history.)
I know of a lot of modern men who all their free time with their asses glued to the couch, drinkin' beer, and watching sports. Frankly, I don't see it as any more an admirable hobby than gambling. (Not necessarily cheaper when you factor in Pay-per-view and other costs.)
Anyway, here in the Land of Enchantment, drive in any direction for a few minutes and you've got yourself a casino. The few I've been in are always busy. The majority of gamblers are grannies and granpas merrily spending their kids' inheritances.
Thanks, P. And I've done a night or two in a casino for fun. (Tupelo and Helena.) Provided you go in just for the entertainment and without any debit or credit cards, it can be a great time.
Hellie - My hat is going to be navy blue. With gold trim, I think. And a big feather I think will be white. Not sure, but Chance will correct me if she's not passed out in the bar by now. LOL!
P - The majority of gamblers are grannies and granpas merrily spending their kids’ inheritances.
I loved this image. LOL!
And I do know the couch surfers you speak of. In light of that image, gambling doesn't look so bad, does it? :)
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