Wednesday, September 29, 2010
Feels Like the First Time With Miranda Neville
Greetings, pirate lasses. I’m thrilled to be on board The Revenge today to talk about that topic close to every pirate’s heart: virgins. I’m talking about sweet, young, innocent man flesh a girl can tie to the mast and have her wicked way with …Maybe not. I’m not here to pimp a reverse bodice ripper. (Though that is an idea: how about shirt rippers for a new genre?). But the hero of THE DANGEROUS VISCOUNT is inexperienced. Totally. If you read THE WILD MARQUIS you’ve already met Sebastian Iverley, a book collector with glasses who has no time for women. But unlike many a misogynistic romance hero who shows his scorn for the female sex by boinking every woman in sight, Sebastian takes the logical course: he leaves them alone. Until he sets eyes on Diana (or rather Diana’s silk clad leg). At which point, for the next 400 pages, he thinks about sex pretty much all the time. In other words he turns into a normal guy.
Here’s the set up. Diana, a rich widow, wants to marry Lord Blakeney, a hot ducal heir and Sebastian’s cousin. Trying to demonstrate her own hotness to Blake, Diana bets him she can get Sebastian to kiss her. What she doesn’t know is that (a) Sebastian has fallen for her hard and (b) he and Blake have hated each other all their lives. So when Sebastian finds out about the bet he’s devastated. He swears to seduce her in revenge and gets an extreme makeover. And Sebastian cleans up really well. I must say, I just adore him.
We are very familiar with virgin heroines, especially in historicals. It’s not so long ago that they were almost required, to the extent of having virgin widows. And if a heroine was experienced, she never enjoyed it until the hero came along (OK, I admit, I’ve written that one). These days heroines who have had and enjoyed sex are the norm (and Diana is one of those: she’s dying to marry again so she can get some). But inexperienced heroes are still relatively unusual and deciding how to portray Sebastian’s developing sexuality was an interesting – and enjoyable challenge.
I’m not going to give things away by telling you how it works out when he finally gets Diana into bed. In real life sex for the first time isn’t usually that great, especially with one or more virgins involved. But the romance writer has to decide just how realistic she wants to be. I will say that Sebastian likes to Be Prepared (and no, he wasn’t a boy scout) so he asks his buddy Tarquin for some advice.
“Don’t worry. When it comes down to it you’ll know what to do. Men have an instinct for it.”
Of that Sebastian had no doubt. His “instinct” had been lately speaking to him with great urgency. “I’d like to do better than muddling through,” he said, remembering his first attempt at a kiss. If he ever got Diana Fanshawe into bed—and he still couldn’t believe it would ever happen--Sebastian wanted to do much better.
“It’s true, the first time tends to be fast,” Tarquin said. “I was so excited I lasted exactly half a minute. Of course I was only sixteen.”
….
“Do women enjoy it?” Sebastian asked.
“They certainly can.”
“Even ladies?”
“The sexual tastes of ladies are outside my area of expertise, but I don’t see why not. They are just women after all. I can give you a few suggestions, I suppose.”
Sebastian wasn’t sure he was up to such frankness in conversation, even with Tarquin. “Can I learn about it from a book? All those erotic rarities you buy must hold some useful information.”
“You are welcome to make use of my library. Just let me know if you need any help with French vocabulary of a specialized nature.”
If you want to read a longer excerpt go to my website, or the HarperCollins site for the first 60 pages.
Do you like to read about virgin heroes and if so, which are your favorites? Do you have a preference for or against inexperienced heroines? If you are a writer, how have you approached writing sex scenes for virgins of either gender? One commenter picked at random or by whim will win a copy of THE DANGEROUS VISCOUNT.
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114 comments:
Hi, Miranda! Love the name!
Viginal anythin' really be off me radar, sorry. Never wrote a virgin...wrote women who been without fer a goodly length of time. Most a' me men are pirates so they don't know the meanin' a' doin' without...for any length a' time.
Read it now and again. I tend ta like readin', and writin', 'bout the heroine who be technically experienced but not terribly talented. Or known those who be talented....until they met the hero!
WEEEEEE!
I love that today's winner could be picked "by whim". That's how we do pretty much everything around here.
I can finally get my hands on this book!!! And have I made it to the bookstore in the last 48 hours? Nooooooo. Gah! But I will. As soon as I build this ark. (Seriously, can't even go to work for two more hours because all the streets around it are flooded.)
I've been reading romance for *cough* years so I've read it all. I usually prefer my heroes experienced, but if done well, I'm content with the one who still has things to learn. As long as the fact is addressed, which it obviously is in this book.
I like that heroines aren't quite so pure these days, but I realize the idea that a sexual revolution has hit the Regency is kind of funny when you think about how far from the truth that is. I mean, it's fiction and I get it, but the number of enlightened Regency men on the subject of making sex all it can be for women is serious literary license. :)
I am so looking forward to reading The Dangerous Viscount!
Simeon Jermyn, the Duke of Cosway, hero of Eloisa James's When the Duke Returns and Lord Francis Middlethorp, hero of Jo Beverley's Forbidden are certainly among my favorite virginal heroes. I don't have a preference about the experience level of the heroine so long as the author makes her experience or lack thereof credible. I am bothered by historical heroines who seem unaware of the possible consequences of their choices, and I find contemporary heroines who would be more at home in the 1950s just as irritating. And I much prefer widows whose marriages were sexually fulfilling.
In the final analysis, a gifted writer can persuade me to accept almost anything. Robyn Carr has a virginal hero in Shelter Mountain, and he's one of my favorite characters in the series. She also has a credible twenty-five-year-old virgin as the heroine of Temptation Ridge, but part of that character's credibility is that she is inexperienced, not ignorant of her sexuality.
I write contemporaries, and I think it's difficult to have a virginal adult character in a 21st-century setting unless one is writing inspirattionals. One of my heroines is celibate by choice, but she's not virginal. And she has very good reasons for choosing celibacy.
I agree with you, Janga. I'm not a fan of virgins in contemporaries and I doubt I could write one. Nor do I want to. But that doesn't mean a contemporary character can't have a sexual awakening, which is an all together different story. And very fun to write.
I love the "by whim" part because in person, Miranda has a lovely lovely British accent and I could just hear her saying that. :)
Hi Miranda! I met you a couple of years ago at the NJ RWA conference during dinner with Eloisa James. It's wonderful to see you here on the boat again!
I've written a couple of virgins. Both were women, though, not men. Though I do have a male secondary character in my WIP who's a virgin. I think one of my biggest pet peeves with virgin women is the whole "Will it fit?" debacle as soon as she sees the "throbbing manhood." I mean, really, even in historical times, has anyone ever heard of even the most throbbing of manhoods not fitting? Wouldn't that be a legendary story? I just don't get it.
but the number of enlightened Regency men on the subject of making sex all it can be for women is serious literary license.
*ROTFLMAO* I totally agree--and I base this on the fact that even 200 years later, there seem to be a lot of men still hanging about, not bringing their best A game to the bedroom to make it the best it can be for the woman.
I don’t have a preference about the experience level of the heroine so long as the author makes her experience or lack thereof credible. I am bothered by historical heroines who seem unaware of the possible consequences of their choices, and I find contemporary heroines who would be more at home in the 1950s just as irritating. And I much prefer widows whose marriages were sexually fulfilling.
I totally agree with this. Though now I wonder if I'm writing contemporary heroines who would be more at home in the '50s. Being sometimes I feel that's how I am and I tend to write heroines who are like me, only way cooler.
I mean, really, even in historical times, has anyone ever heard of even the most throbbing of manhoods not fitting? Wouldn’t that be a legendary story? I just don’t get it.
And I think we have our RWR Wordbite of the Week.
Good morning pirates.
@Chance. The great thing about writing virgins is that (thank God) you only have to deal with the virginity once! I agree with you it's nice to see/show characters *improve*.
@Bo'sun. If a pirate can't get to a bookstore (don't bother going to work) in a flood, no one can. I wouldn't want to make a habit of writing virgin heroes but once was fun - and I didn't set out to write a virgin. It's a nerd book and I decided it fit Sebastian's character never to have "done it."
As for all our sexually experienced Regency gals, it's an issue. I've done two widows in a row now so the book I finished is back to an unmarried young woman. You have to be very careful how you motivate a single girl into bed when she has so much to lose and it goes so much against her upbringing. The other thing that IMO needs to be addressed is the guy. In 19th c. England, sleeping with an unmarried virgin is not a nice thing to do if you don't intend to marry her.
OTOH. I do believe then - as now - people's "natural urges" were very strong and they ended up doing things against their better judgment.
@Janga Forbidden is one of the great virgin hero stories, particularly as Francis was basically raped (though by mistake - if you've read the book you know what I mean and yes it is possible). Actually of Eloisa's virgins I prefer Sebastian (another one) from the Duchess in Love series. He never got his own book but he was so adorable. Loved it when he went to work as Esme's gardener (sigh)
I have to agree, that would truly be legendary. LOL!
And if all the men were so well endowed, the make love not war idea would be ruled.
Welcome, Miranda -- this sounds like a great story, and I'm looking forward to reading it. I loved the excerpt above with the men trying to figure out women. :)
I started out writing historicals when heroines were required to be virgins, and I've been trying to revamp one of those early ones to get the heroine in bed sooner. LOL However, since I am not a fan of the current trend for historical heroines to have sex "to see what it's like", it's tricky.
It's funny how an author can get slapped for being "historically inaccurate" on clothing or carriages, but a heroine who jumps onto the mattress for a new experience. . .LOL
And Marn, I think that "will it fit?" has to be dealt with when you have an innocent heroine. Oh, you weren't talking about breeches, were you? LOL Never mind!
I can very much see how the virgin thing fits Sebastian. And I adored Eloisa's storyline with Esme and Sebastian. It was almost better that it crossed the entire series instead of being in just one book.
I'm also a supporter of the "natural urges" theory. Even today that happens. I can't count the number of cousins I have who have gone to the alter with a giant baby bump. It's not like we don't know how to prevent this in the 21st century!
I think one of my biggest pet peeves with virgin women is the whole “Will it fit?” debacle as soon as she sees the “throbbing manhood.”
I so agree! Before I get back to other comments I had to weigh in on this one :) @RRRJes made an excellent joke on the subject yesterday. She was talking about a problem with a new appliance being installed in her kitchen: "Of course, I read romance, so I know it is NEVER too big for the hole."
The other thing I find dubious is how many virgins seem to know all about it because they live in the country. If you watch animals mate you don't actually get a good look at Tab A and Slot B. Also, you would expect them to all jump onto the mattress and get right down on hands and knees.
If I'm going to go the virginal route, I'd rather have the girl virgin than the man one. Mainly because I don't find it too believable (for myself) to have a young man with those sorts of hormones who WOULDN'T have sex at the nearest opportunity unless: 1) he was extremely religious, 2) socially awkward to the point of rude and weird, or 3) gay. I've been on dates with all these men and you can't make me repeat it. I'll go without. And if the guy can honestly get along without sex and could care less, that puts him in the asexual category in my book--and frankly for me, sex is not a take it or leave it sort of thing. I'd normally rather take it unless it's with the religious, socially awkward or gay. Or in other words, I don't want to be the one in the relationship who always wants sex more. I'm already desperate enough, folks.
I think history has shown us that men having sex as often as possible has almost always been encouraged. They are rarely, if ever, punished for sex--it's the woman (that devil creature who led him astray) who bears the brunt of the blame. Men get a wink and a nudge.
Women, being they are important for marriage for uniting land and stuff, must be kept pure. So there are all these rules and consequences to breaking rules that were REAL and HARSH. I think in a lot of novels nowadays, the punishment is glossed over, when people are pretty judgmental and have long memories. Oh, and love a good scandal.
Anyway where sex for men is encouraged, I think there was a lot of discouraging of sex for women EXCEPT if you were married. And if you enjoyed it, well you're a little weird, prone to vapors, but not the worst thing in the world perhaps.
So I tend to hold to the traditional route. If a girl had sex outside of marriage, she got married quickly...and hopefully he wasn't a stablehand; and if she didn't get married, she was put in the country forever (or Bedlam). Being I don't want that sort of negative stuff for my character, I'd prefer (if I wrote historicals) to keep her virginal until married. I don't mind widows. Those are a nice solution to the "I'm tired of writing about virgin women" problem.
As for contemporaries, I typically don't have virgins of either sex--though I do tend to give my heroine crappy lovers until her hero arrives. *shrugs*
I do believe then – as now – people’s “natural urges” were very strong and they ended up doing things against their better judgment.
This I believe! *LOL* But I think you also nailed on the head, you have to motivate your characters properly, make it believable they would go against their upbringing, against society's mores, et al, to go this course. It's not that it wasn't done; it's that did you draw the character fully enough to make it believable. And did you draw the society "character" to show how much they have to lose.
I think not drawing the "society character" is where a lot of writers are losing their audience. There really doesn't feel like there are real consequences for characters any more. Even the villains in a romance are PC and have a modern sensibility of free will and "do what feels good".
It’s funny how an author can get slapped for being “historically inaccurate” on clothing or carriages, but a heroine who jumps onto the mattress for a new experience. . .
So true!! *LOL*
@RRRJes made an excellent joke on the subject yesterday. She was talking about a problem with a new appliance being installed in her kitchen: “Of course, I read romance, so I know it is NEVER too big for the hole.”
*LOL*
And I agree: the virgin who knows everything about sex annoys me too. I've HAD sex and don't know everything, thanks, so stop making me feel stupid while I read.
Also, you would expect them to all jump onto the mattress and get right down on hands and knees. Exactly!! I've definitely read more than one historical where the girl is lying there--inevitably on her back--mentally pontificating about the size of the guy's package and reminding herself that she's seen the amorous attempts of cattle.
The hero should question any future union with said girl. Obviously she's no good at following direction.
Yes, she did. It was one of the funniest, sweetest scenes I'd read. *LOL* And the hero was a good sport about it.
Didn't Kleypas' recent heroine do the "hands and knees" thing because she knew how it worked for animals? LOL!
Ooh, Hellion, which Kleypas is that? (I am way behind on them) Sounds great!
I'm wondering if a virgin female in a contemporary might be like a virgin male in a historical, not something you want to read every day but interesting occasionally. One issue in contemps is heroines tend to be older. Even historical heroines are rarely 17 or 18 anymore (remember all those trad Regencies with 17 year olds marrying men in their 30s? Squicky). A 21yo heroine may be fine in an historical but seems impossibly young to be finding HEA in a contemp. So what's the poor girl been doing all these years not getting any? You could have her breaking away from a religious upbringing - I went to Catholic school and had to put up with endless joke about convent girls gone wild (not a grain of truth in them, I swear)
I think I'm the only one left who really doesn't mind virgins (male or female). I just think like Hellie said it just makes more sense for them especially in historicals. I mean there were BIG TIME consequences for not being one back then. I guess what it comes down to is that I'm of the belief that fear is stronger than desire. So, again like everyone else is saying you better make me believe the desire is monumental!
I also loved Esme and Sebastian in EJ's earlier Duchess series. I wanted them to get their own book but now that I look back on it it is better that their story spanned all of the books.
That scene in Love in the Afternoon with Bea was hilarious and really fit her personality.
I guess what it comes down to is that I’m of the belief that fear is stronger than desire.
Ain't that the truth!
Fortunately Irish told me so I didn't have to google it: Love in the Afternoon. It was sweet and sad and funny and wonderful. Good stuff.
So what’s the poor girl been doing all these years not getting any?
I think that's exactly the problem. Though I did read an interesting premise to a contemporary virgin (female) in her mid-20s. She'd bee the sole caretaker of her ailing mother. Her mother died when she was 24 or 26 and she simply had not had time until then to date or have sex or anything. And I could totally see this because I have older parents; and taking care of older parents is very much a real issue to me.
No, definitely never said of our heroes. THOUGH Eloisa James does seem to make a pretty good running gag with all her books in that the first sex in her books is rarely anything it could be. *LOL*
Hi Donna: I agree it is hard to motivate the sex in very traditional historical stories. That's when you get those books where you could remove the sex scene(s) and it would make no difference to the plot. Actually, here's another question: why is it impossible to sell a book w/o sex? I happen to like sexy books, but I can enjoy books where the sex never happens during the story because it doesn't fit (oops, sorry). I really felt that about Julia Quinn's What Happened in London - a book I totally ADORED. But the sex just didn't belong in the book. The couple were adorable and going to get married and have great sex, but after the story ended.
Wild. That's how I felt about WHIL! I wouldn't have missed the sex at all; and it would have been better without it.
I don't know why sex is the be-all, but it seems very conflicting if you say the sex must propel the story forward (and not be there gratuitously) and yet they won't buy your book without the sex. (Well, unless you're writing inspirational. But why ONLY inspirational? And are you telling me inspirational people never give into their desires? Come on!)
@Irisheyes
I think I’m the only one left who really doesn’t mind virgins (male or female). I just think like Hellie said it just makes more sense for them especially in historicals. I mean there were BIG TIME consequences for not being one back then.
Yes, indeed. Birth control was both less common and less effective than we conveniently tend to show in our books. I believe male virgins were quite common up to marriage. Not so much among the rakish upper classes (our preferred subject matter) because they had money and access to loose women, but among ordinary folk, even gentry. First of all, they weren't all hypocritically ignoring their religious upbringing. Secondly, they might well be fastidious about sleeping with prostitutes and women of other classes were likely to be just as respectable and virtuous as the gentry (maybe more so).
BTW I make it clear that my Sebastian was not opposed to self-gratification. He's not sexless. He has made the decision to be celebate.
Birth control was both less common and less effective than we conveniently tend to show in our books.
Can I say that I laugh whenever a historical talks about a hero using a french letter with the heroine? I mean, they make it sound like they had them in a drawer and just slid them on. Didn't they have to soak the things first? Were those things even REMOTELY effective?
See, I prefer to keep my illusions about french letters. I don't know much about them and if I can pretend they work just like today, then I don't mind the not knowing. LOL!
These days authors seem to be all about bring the characters pleasure without "breaking that barrier" so to speak. That didn't used to be the norm. At least not that I remember.
I could believe a 22 yr old virgin heroine in a contemporary. 28 or 33? Not so much.
Before the invention of rubber and then latex, condoms were horrible. I would never torture my characters that way. (and when I read descriptions of them I frankly can't imagine how the whole thing worked. Where was the friction?) OK,, enough. We need to leave Bo'sun with her illusions.
*LOL* Yeah, I was wondering about the friction problem too. *LOL*
The comment about Sebastian not being sexless leads me to a question. I've read historical heroines lately who have also not been sexless. As in, been taking care of themselves for years. I have a hard time believing this could be accurate. Or at all likely.
I know some 28 year old virgins. But it's a religious decision more than anything. But those type of heroines rarely make it into a contemporary novel where sex is dominant. If she was the heroine of an inspirational...
If she was the heroine of an inspirational…
...then I wouldn't be reading it. But I do wish there was an inbetween genre, something between inspirational and must have sex. I guess that's what the Trads used to be. I do prefer there to be sex in the books I read, but not an abundance of it. In my contemporary, the H/H spend one active night together. That's all the reader gets. I recently read another contemporary with two short love scenes and that's it.
I still loved the book and I think it works in mine. Sometimes adding eight sex scenes just doesn't fit the story.
Sometimes adding eight sex scenes just doesn’t fit the story.
I do think it strains credulity. I mean how well can you really get to know a person--the real person, not the naked panting one--if you're too busy shagging him on every available surface. This is the sort of behavior that leads to rude awakenings after the fact like, "What do you MEAN you're a REPUBLICAN?" You can't take that sex back.
Don't I know it.
Hellie, is the contemporary you referred to Robyn Carr's Temptation Ridge? If not, there are two books that share that plot. That's the one I mentioned earlier. I found Carr's 21st-century 25-year-old virgin believable because she was taking care of her mother during the years she would have been dating AND she was not ignorant about sex. She knew exactly what she wanted.
Oh, and I read an inspy recently where the H/H are wildly attracted to each other and have hot sex--then she says that it was great but they're not doing it again until after the wedding because it's against her beliefs and besides it's a bad example for his younger siblings should they find out. He's not happy about her decision. LOL! I found all of this totally believable for these characters, given her religious upbringing and the history they share.
Janga, it might have been! I don't remember exactly, but I do remember BELIEVING this could very well happen, this character could exist. And you're right, I don't think she was ignorant or oblivious about sex; I just it was like that statement in Harry Potter 7, where Harry says, "I think dating opportunities are going to be quite thin on the ground to be honest." This character just didn't have time to date--and unlike a lot of heroines in books, not all of us walk out of our door and trip over Gerard Butler in your front yard. You have to be out and about; you have to be in a city larger than the size of a peanut usually.
And I like that inspy! See, I'd believe that too! And it's a great way to show passion, but also conflict. And that "good" people are human too.
I’ve read historical heroines lately who have also not been sexless. As in, been taking care of themselves for years. I have a hard time believing this could be accurate. Or at all likely.
I don't find this impossible. There's no one going to stop a girl doing a little experimentation. Depends on the individual character. On the practical side, a lot of girls shared a bed with a sister so privacy might be an issue. (which makes me think of Lisa Valdez' family of girls all practicing together with cucumbers)
Cucumbers? Really? Huh, never read that one.
Chance, you got a drink that goes with cucumbers?
A problem I have if the couple is having lots of fabulous sex is maintaining the conflict. I mean, how mad can you be at a guy who's taking care of your needs so admirably?
Finding the reason to keep them apart after sex is always interesting. "Go away and come back when you've discovered the clitoris" is not a popular break up line in romance novels.
I mean, how mad can you be at a guy who’s taking care of your needs so admirably?
No kidding. *LOL*
Sadly, that line could still be used today.
I'm with you on that one. I couldn't figure out anyway to get my H/H together like that and still keep them apart. I mean, right after they finally give in something happens that makes the herione thing she totally messed up and the hero is a jerk, but I couldn't have pulled that off four times!
Wow, that took a while to catch up...and I bet a handful of more comments came in while I was reading...wait, I better refresh before commenting...
Hey, a break! So...Catholic girls gone wild!?
Uh, Miranda...in California...yeah. I knew quite a few! Guess it all depends on where the school was?
Drinks with cucumbers...well, they'd be very clean that way...
Reg. historical accuracy and virginal H/H...it is fiction... But it has to be done well and made believable... But the historical fanatics...
*ducking Hellie's thrown rum bottle
...will always find something to complain about. Why I stick with making it all up! I'm a total coward when it comes to facing down the fanatics...
*grabs flying rum bottle from midair and tosses it into the recycling bin
I'm a purist, not a fanatic. I prefer a writer who I feel at least TOOK a history class before starting their novel. And passed it.
But yes, there will always be writers who find something to complain about. So you have to ignore the minority. If the minority ever become the majority though, you might see what the problem is and if you can fix it.
I'm with Chance on the topic of Catholic school girls. I was one for 12 yrs and though *I* never did the wild child thing, I knew plenty of girls who did.
I'm not as worried about cravats and curricles as I am characters behaving logically for the time.
I don't notice cravats so much as the PC behavior of characters that don't seem logical with the period. Unless they're working directly with William Wilberforce, it's not likely they were very PC.
I do notice the anachronistic dialogue...
Purist/Fanatic... Potato/Potatah
*grabs fresh rum bottle out of the air
Best first awkward kiss ever... "The Jerk" ... I'm home nursing the remnants of a sinus headache with the TV on...
The thing with anachronistic dialogue is that you'd be surprised what really was being said back then that you'd think is wrong. But then the author has to choose. Do I use the language I know is correct, or do I use the language I think the reader will believe they used?
I don’t notice cravats so much as the PC behavior of characters that don’t seem logical with the period. Unless they’re working directly with William Wilberforce, it’s not likely they were very PC.
I had an interesting moment with this book where I was trying to show Sebastian being a nice liberal coal mine owner. Which meant, at this period, voluntarily agreeing not to employ children under the age of nine because the Factory Act applied to cotton mills but not to mines. Also, not making older children work longer than 12 hours days. For 1820 this really did count as an enlightened attitude. I could have made him go all PC on me and refuse to employ children at all and put them in school and knit them warm woolly socks with his own hands. But I decided to stick with historical accuracy.
Only so much rebellion, eh, Miranda? ;-)
A virgin hero who also knitted warm wooly socks might have been a stretch.
And gay.
A virgin hero who also knitted warm wooly socks might have been a stretch.
Next time. I'm always up for a challenge. And knitting books are hot.
Notice I'm not even touching the question of anachronistic dialog. That is such a tough subject and an extremely subjective one. You'll have to invite me back sometime and we'll spend a whole day on it. Better still, we could discuss in person in NYC over a bottle of rum. You pirates are all coming to New York, right?
I'm more against anachronistic dialogue if they're saying, "Dude! Where's my carriage?" As Bo'sun says, there are a lot of words being used you wouldn't have thought: screw, knocked up, fuck, rocket, etc...
Although I did stop reading a historical after the first page because the word "CLONE" was used. (Not a term in use until 1957 I googled.) Granted, there were a few other things against it too: a duke a country no one's ever heard of and was fictional in her popular contemporary paranormal series too, and well, there was the clone thing. But I bet they had sex pretty quickly too...
Other people enjoyed it much though I did not. My loss. Whatever.
For 1820 this really did count as an enlightened attitude.
VERY enlightened. Children didn't really have the childhood we so prize and idealize until much later. I think they put kids to work so young to keep them gainfully employed and off the street--and oh, so they could have very cheap and expendable labor.
I can handle moderately enlightened heroes, but not uber-enlightened ones.
Chance and I will be in NYC. And I think Donna, Marn and Hal will all make it too. The best Pirate showing yet!
Now, if only the Captain would splurge and let go of her NYC bias for one week. LOL! I'm afraid what Sin would do in a group that large...
I believe 2nd and Bo'sun are going to NYC. I would have to win the lottery...and I'd have to have a lobotomy because NYC is not my kind of town. Been there and bought the "I hate NYC" t-shirt.
And gay.
Where the hell did that come from? LOL!
See?! Bias.
I think the "and gay" has to do with the virgin hero who knits. Clearly 2nd doesn't find that very masculine. *LOL*
And biased is when you judge something without having experienced it. I have experienced NYC personally. I just don't think it's all that and a box of ho-hos like other people do.
Okay, I'll rephrase.
If only the Captain would reconsider that a second trip might be better than the first considering said second trip would involve talking romance with her favorite pirate mates IN PERSON. And drinking lots of rum.
Look at that: revision in action! Amazing!
LOL! I didn't even think of that.
I'm counting that in my production for the week!
I keep forgetting to ask, could we hear more about Tarquin's book?
Hi. Real life intervened for a bit but I'm back.
Tarquin! If you read The Wild Marquis - and you'll meet him more in The Dangerous Viscount - you'll know that Tarquin is the consummate dandy. He's the best dressed man in London and all the fashionable ladies crave his opinion about their outfits. (You can see I like to make things difficult for myself when it comes to a hero!) I decided the only thing to do with a dandy is to undress him, so Tarquin finds himself almost naked, lost on the Yorkshire moors, suffering from amnesia, and in company with a ruined governess who holds a grudge against him. I had sooo much fun with him, poor baby. (And harkening back to an earlier conversation, we had a bit of "natural urges" action here)
And I'm serious. Rum's on me in NYC. Isn't that enough to lure you in, Cap'n H?
Wow. I read that as the "natural urges" was the real life that intervened. Must get my mind out of the gutter. Sheesh.
Undressing a dandy. That sounds like a lovely time. Not until next year for this one, heh? Damn it. Though this current book sounded really far off when you were last here, and look, now it's on the shelves. Maybe the time will fly again.
Would be a spoiler to tell us why she holds a grudge against him?
Wow. I read that as the “natural urges” was the real life that intervened. Must get my mind out of the gutter. Sheesh.
LOL. Now you mention it, does sound like that. Nothing so interesting, alas.
The governess (my heroine) has fallen on hard times, but for a while she was a London debutante. She thinks Tarquin ruined her prospects of marriage when he made a devastatingly snotty remark about her.
If he is the dandy everyone listens to, then I can see where that could happen. These stories are all so different. I know it's a total cliche question, but where do you get these ideas? And what is next?
Rum on Miranda! I'll be there with pirate knickers on!
Love those tossed away nasty comments that ruin people's lives. I suppose the modern equivalent is the Tweet.
And yes, I figured a man that enlightened who knitted socks might, just possible, be gay. Or at least appear gay. Not that any of the gay men I know knit...
you’ll know that Tarquin is the consummate dandy.
I love dandies. I don't know why I prefer men who are prettier than me and better dressers--but I love reading about them. Sounds like an awesome book--and the ruined governess is another archetype I adore reading about.
Miranda, it's tempting, but you may regret it if I showed. My snotty commentary about NYC does get old quickly. "You call this a park?"
Not that any of the gay men I know knit…
I bet Jon could figure it out, but he's more into quilting (no lie). Mikey, definitely not, he'd end up strangling himself with the yarn first and no one would ever know if it was on purpose or by accident...or by Jon.
Well, my BIL isn't the textile type... But for all I know, knitting is the new drug of choice in San Francisco, so who am I to say?
Miranda, I need to catch up on your books... Must scurry off to the e-store and pick them up...
Given the craze for M/M AND knitting I can't believe a gay knitting book can be far behind. Especially if one of the protags is a vampire and it's set in a small town.
Given the craze for M/M AND knitting I can’t believe a gay knitting book can be far behind. Especially if one of the protags is a vampire and it’s set in a small town.
You seriously need to leap on that wagon, Miranda! *LOL*
They could knit sweaters that sparkle in the sunlight. LOL!
My bro couldn't knit, I don't think. I'm not even sure he could sew on a button. And he's quite gay. He does love his dragon figurines. I'd avoid any guy with a dragon figurine collection. And definitely don't give one of those to any of your heroes.
Damn, I need a new shamwow. Just sprayed my monitor... Yes, set in a small town, with glttery fog?
Well, darn it! Now, I need to go back and revise that dragon ceramic gift I'd planned Jez would give Mick... ;-)
OMG! Do you think I should remove Tarquin's dragon figurine collection during copy edits?
I'm glad Hellion likes dandies. 1820 dandies aren't as much fun as Georgian ones. I wasn't able to put Tarquin in pink satin and gold lace.
Bo'sun: You ask me where I get my ideas? I don't know. They kind of brew in my subconscious. I do like to do different things each time, but I wonder if that will last if I manage to keep selling books. Next, incidentally, is Minerva, Diana's younger sister from TDV and one of my favorite secondary characters ever. She's only 17 in this book so I'm going to have to let some time pass till she's old enough to be trusted with her natural urges. I have managed to give her a bit of sex ed. in Tarquin's book (title still under discussion)
Clocking in at post 87
Some of us have to work ya know!
Amazing how sex invigorates a blog. :lol:
I guess I'm the odd one out here by actually possessing one of those 'throbbing manhood' things. Miranda, you can 'tie me to the mast' any time, ... as long as I'm well chaperoned. :wink:
I don't really have a favorite virgin heroine, though one that comes readily to mind is Rebeca in Catherine Anderson's 'Cherish'
It's set in America and when Race rides (on a white stallion?) to rescue Rebeca from outlaws, it stirred all of my chivalrous male instincts and was in the best traditions of a Wild West hero. Of course he fell in love with the girl that he had saved.
Rebecca's religious upbringing however had made her very wary of men near her sleeping bag and when she finally allows Race to be intimate, she screams when he touches her bosom.
Race then discovers some of the things that
she has been taught by her early religious mentors, including "everything above the waist is untouchable and everything below the waist is man's work!". Race and Rebeca are well matched, both being quick to learn, and both taking advantage of their new knowledge.
I think that love scene may have been one of the most moving and amusing that I have read!
I have to say that I prefer my heroines pure and virginal. I like that feel of vulnerable sweet beauty, possibly disguised by a quirky 'tom boy' facade which has to be penetrated. All the better if the heroine competes effectively for recognition in a man's world.
But then I have one of those 'things'
May I ask if the Oxford history degree helps a lot with writing romance and would you advise prospective romance authors to follow in your tracks?
Great to have you aboard Miranda. :D
I just love hearing from a man with one of those 'things' ...
I always wonder if men prefer the virgins, overall. My heroine asks her hero about that in the book I just contracted and he replies, "Too much trouble."
Hee, hee.
Though, Q, the scene you describe sounds wonderful. I may have to search this book out.
*scribbling on my to-look for list
I needed to shamwow my screen when Q said he preferred virgins who needed to PENETRATED. I mean there was stuff between, but that's what it boiled down to...
Hi Quantum. I didn't know there was an actual guy on board. Not sure whether to quiver with spinsterish shock that a MAN has been overhearing our feminine confidences or tie you to the mast and get your opinion on my latest love scene.
In the olden days (about 15 years ago) the hero always loved finding out the heroine is a virgin - he discovers the supreme pleasure of having sex with a woman who is pig ignorant and lies on her back without moving until she erupts into a shower of glittering ecstasy. Now it's more fashionable to have him appreciate her experience. I guess one can play it either way. There are tons of older historicals where the hero thinks the heroine is a slut because she isn't a virgin (he can always tell!), never mind that she was raped by her uncle of something.
I learned all sorts of useful things at Oxford, not all of them in class :)
2nd - what's this about a contract? Spill.
s
I've changed my mind. This is the RWR Wordbite of the Week.
In the olden days (about 15 years ago) the hero always loved finding out the heroine is a virgin – he discovers the supreme pleasure of having sex with a woman who is pig ignorant and lies on her back without moving until she erupts into a shower of glittering ecstasy.
It was the term "pig ignorant that clearly clinched it for me.
Geez, I wade out into the great flood (water half way up my car...errr....dingy doors!) and y'all are tying Q and his...nope, can't even type it...to the mast.
This is the best blog ever.
Chance,
My heroine asks her hero about that in the book I just contracted and he replies, “Too much trouble.”
I don't remember Miranda the time traveling witch saying that! How many books have you sold now!?
Helli!
virgins who needed to PENETRATED.
There's no pulling the wool over your eyes. *grin*
Miranda, I think the pirates are all used to my presence now, and I'm married so I'm almost kosher 8)
I actually hate it when a hero despises 'fallen women'. A hero worth his salt looks beyond those conventions in the books that I like. Its just a big plus, not an essential, for the man to have his bride untouched by others.
OK. I know I'm really old fashioned! :oops:
How come you never hear the term "fallen men"? It's a double standard I tell ya!
Did someone say fallen men?
RWR Wordbite of the Week = Better than a RITA
LOL! We'll give you a statue in NYC. I can't promise it'll be appropriate for public viewing.
Don't be silly. There's nothing better than a RITA.
Though we should come up with some piratey trophy to handout for the RWR WBOTW. Bo'sun, get on that!
And I think it's cute Q wants an untouched bride. Of course, everyone on this ship is disqualified, but I don't know if Q was thinking through the ramifications very clearly. Maybe he just wanted us for the stag party.
You have to wonder what Mrs. Q is going to think about his hunt for the untouched unicorn of purity.
*snicker
Pig ignorant... Fallen men... So many wondrous button ideas out there!
I'm willing to make up a button for the RWR-WBoTW...
Q - No contract on A Caribbean Spell Miranda's story! But I sold The Kraken's Mirror to Decadent Publishing. (Or would that be my agent sold it?) Been eyeballing their cover ideas all this week, think I have a winner! Now, if they'd just assign an editor so I can work on revisions!
Miranda - That's the sale!
The Fallen Man really must be a drink... Or the Untouched Unicorn of Purity... Both sound superb!
Ooops.
2nd; Congrats on your sale. Look forward to reading it!
Next time I give a party I'm going to serve Untouched Unicorns of Purity. Absolut, Grand Marnier and (of course) a cherry.
/i> You know, I am trying...
It's kinda purty...
Yeah, Miranda, that sounds great! Cherries...must give some thoughts to the Fallen Man...
Oh, that's a great recipe for the new drink. Though we need a horn in there somewhere.
I fixed the italics. You need to be careful with that HTML!
Hey, I'm late to the party and you're all seven seas over! Wake up, Buccaneers! I wanna drink!
Miranda, I'm dying for your viscount to land on my doorstep. I think this book sounds absolutely delicious. And you keep tormenting me by giving me hints about how wonderful it is, you wicked woman!
I actually really like virgin heroes. Yeah, I'd have to say that - I wrote one in UNTOUCHED. And poor Matthew, things don't go well first time around, snicker! Let's just say he's a fast learner, though!
Good luck with the book and congratulations on its release!
Anna's here! And we're all too drunk to come to the phone (name the movie!).
UNTOUCHED was fabulous - I adored it. We never really got around to discussing virgin heroes because we seemed to get into heroines. Not sure why.
Hellie is the movie buff. She's going to have to name the movie.
Sorry, we're the worst tangeanters. (New word?)
Anna! Welcome aboard, dahlink. *slides a Saucy Aussie down the bar* I can't believe I forgot about Matthew. *sigh* He was so awesome. And we finally found a writer who can get all those eight sex scenes in and make them work!
Ha ha, Bo'sun! For some reason, I'm thinking of the post about the heroine wondering about all that throbbing manhood fitting! It has led to tea all over my keyboard so my insurance company will be in touch with you, my piratical friend! Actually the book I just handed in (phew!) that's out next May doesn't have nearly as many sex scenes as usual. Sometimes the story just doesn't justify all that nooky, does it?
Hey, thanks, Miranda! Seriously, I think there's something really intriguing about a virgin hero. I've read a few in my time and nearly always enjoy the stories! So you kinda had me at hello when you told me about this story!
Since it's late, I've decided to award the prize. First let me thank the pirates for a great day - I always have the best time with you all. Look forward to rum in New York with as many of you as possible.
My whim wasn't working so I used random.org instead and the winner of the The Dangerous Viscount ... drumroll...is Hellion! And she has to pick yp her prize in person in New York City! (OK I'll take pity and save NY: Hellie please send me your snail mail address).
I love all. Good night and can't wait for next time.
Wow, you even do your own heavy lifting. You're going into the Pirate Guest Hall of Fame. Add that to your WBoTW and you are sweeping the awards this year.
Thanks for being here and you know the plank is always open! Provided the water receeds, I'm going to strap on my water wings and wade to the bookstore tomorrow. (Since those telepathic whims I was sending you didn't work.)
I honestly don't know the movie. I even googled the quote and Google is going, "I've got nothing." It did bring up Animal House, but when I pawed through the quotes (on IMDB) I couldn't find it and it just made me really glad I've never seen that movie. It also brought up Talladega Nights, which I could have possibly attributed it to, except I know that movie pretty well, and the quote google associated with TN was "I'm too drunk to taste this chicken" which isn't quite the same thing.
So what IS the movie?
Wait, *I* won? YES!! *pirate dance* I got the booty! I got the booty!
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