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Monday, August 23, 2010
Who Is That Heroine In The Mirror?
There’s an author I love who shall remain nameless, but I recently realized her heroines all seem to be the same woman. Well, I haven’t read all her books, but I’ve read five of them and four of the heroines could be interchangeable. They each come across as how I imagine the author to be. Smart, self-deprecating, funny, and occasionally cranky.
Not long ago, we took tests to see what kind of “girl” we all were, and if I remember correctly, the results for our heroines usually matched the results for ourselves. At least I know that was the result in my case. I don’t consider this a problem, but it does make me wonder. Am I writing me over and over again?
My heroines show up in my mind. They appear out of nowhere, usually bringing their hero along for the official introductions, then set up camp in my brain as if waiting for the blow out sale at Kleinfeld’s. Because of this, I rarely think of them as my creations, but rather characters already fully formed who just happen to live in my brain. Who I’ve only just met.
If this were the case, you’d think they would all be different, and in some ways they are. But in many ways they are not. Other than all being brunette and slender, my heroines are not the trusting sort, they often don’t think very highly of themselves, and to say they are skeptical of men is an understatement.
But, while Emma is a control freak, Melissa is a push over looking for her spine. Bridgit is a hard ass hiding her mushy, vulnerable center behind a wall of attitude and rebellion, and Anna is enjoying finding her hidden sex kitten. They are different yet similar. And still, at the risk of revealing too much, they are all versions of me.
Just as we all have a core story, do you have a core heroine? How do your heroines come to be? Do they just show up or do you build them like haute couture on a dress form? Is there an author you’ve read where it seemed her heroines could blend together? (No names necessary…karma and all that.) And do you ever worry that your characters are not different enough to stand apart?
Not long ago, we took tests to see what kind of “girl” we all were, and if I remember correctly, the results for our heroines usually matched the results for ourselves. At least I know that was the result in my case. I don’t consider this a problem, but it does make me wonder. Am I writing me over and over again?
My heroines show up in my mind. They appear out of nowhere, usually bringing their hero along for the official introductions, then set up camp in my brain as if waiting for the blow out sale at Kleinfeld’s. Because of this, I rarely think of them as my creations, but rather characters already fully formed who just happen to live in my brain. Who I’ve only just met.
If this were the case, you’d think they would all be different, and in some ways they are. But in many ways they are not. Other than all being brunette and slender, my heroines are not the trusting sort, they often don’t think very highly of themselves, and to say they are skeptical of men is an understatement.
But, while Emma is a control freak, Melissa is a push over looking for her spine. Bridgit is a hard ass hiding her mushy, vulnerable center behind a wall of attitude and rebellion, and Anna is enjoying finding her hidden sex kitten. They are different yet similar. And still, at the risk of revealing too much, they are all versions of me.
Just as we all have a core story, do you have a core heroine? How do your heroines come to be? Do they just show up or do you build them like haute couture on a dress form? Is there an author you’ve read where it seemed her heroines could blend together? (No names necessary…karma and all that.) And do you ever worry that your characters are not different enough to stand apart?
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Bo'sun's Babblings (Terri)
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120 comments:
Oooooo! Great question! My core heroine...hee, hee. Well, she needs a second chance.
Wow, that was easy! ;-)
Ok, seriously, my heroines, to my mind, aren't all me. But they are women who I would like to think carry parts of me. The ideal me, if faced with circumstancs I throw at them. They are all in denial...a place I've been. They all have a way of stating the obvious, unaware of the bombshells they drop...is that me? Maybe...
I'm looking forward to seeing how everyone answers this and maybe I'll find more insight into this after a good night's sleep...
I do tend to write dark haired heroines who are curvy, who think they are fat...who are short. OK, ya got me on that one!
I love this, Ter. I think I too, have a core heroine. All long, dark hair and slender, all unsure of who they are and what their place in the world is. All a bit cranky because of it :)
I'm in agreement that each heroine is a part of me. Or perhaps (since half my heroines are super-spies and I'm a total push-over) they are who I want to be, or who I would want to be in that particular situation, at least.
And for me, as well, they show up fully formed. It takes me a while to understand that form, but it's there from the get-go, and isn't changing. (except for Josephine, my lone blond, who showed up in a photograph. Go figure)
Hal - She showed up in a picture? I must hear details on that. How did that happen? I had two heroines talking to me last night and one is for two books from now, trying to write her damn opening scene. I can't do that right now!
I'm glad you like it, Chance. I know we love to talk about the heroes, but the heroines need love too.
I know your heroines also tend to fall on the slightly older side. How old are Miranda and Ivy? They're relatively young, aren't they?
I have read books by the same author where the heroine -- and the hero too -- seemed almost interchangable in their characteristics. I don't mind. A good story is a good story. I don't notice this in bad stories because I wouldn't be reading more of them by the same author. Get my logic? LOL
Hmm. It would be interesting to imagine my heroines meeting. (Or the hero and heroines all together at a dinner party.) I think they would get along splendidly because they do have a lot in common, even if they have totally different backgrounds. Maybe they'd be finishing eachother's sentences like long lost twins. LOL
Also, the secondary character(a best friend or relative) in the stories that I imagine as opposites and foils of the hero and heroine - even ecentric - probably aren't as different in their core personality. If I ever got around to their stories, eventually, once I got into their heads as a main character, they would probably wind up with a lot more "me" in them. I don't think I could avoid it, even if I were trying to preserve their individuality. They all have a core personality, but room for a lot of environment and physical differences, if that makes sense. I need more coffee. LOL
Yeah - the top picture on this site: http://www.headshot-photography.com/portfolio003.htm
I got to that picture, and it was like, "Oh, that's Josephine." And there's so much of her personality in that picture -- I can just see her, you know? Toward the bottom of the previous page, there's a couple shots of her smiling, where she doesn't look quite as mean :)
Smart, self-deprecating, funny, and occasionally cranky
What woman does this not describe? I think even super-models can be self-deprecating. In theory. I've never had to share an elevator with one to find out, but I imagine they are, so I don't have to hate them as badly.
I can see where heroines would show up "different" but they are being filtered through our brains; and as different as we'd try to make them, they would still be painted with our perceptions of the world. So yes, all your characters--not just your heroines--are versions of yourself.
Your heroes are like you too: capable, reliable, caring, and strong.
Tessa Dare's heroines don't "blend together" necessarily, but they're alike. They've all got something about them genuinely flawed: the one that is a bit of a glutton; the one who drinks too much; the one who lies all the time--and when I read her heroines, I do feel like I'm seeing a reflection of Tessa because all her heroines are pretty confident. No one has body-image issues or true feelings of rejection. (I think the glutton might have "minor" feelings along this line; however, her heroines is too confident in general to convince me she really feels this way.) Her heroines give the impression they enjoyed high school--if high school had existed in their time.
Julie Garwood's heroes literally blend together. I can't name them; I can't really tell them apart. They're all broody, stoic, silent, and cranky as hell. I love them--don't get me wrong. Her men ALWAYS cracked me up; but they were all alike.
Sorry, I've fallen behind. Mornings are the craziest time here.
Melissa - I have a hard time making sure my BFF/Sidekick characters don't steal every scene they're in. They are always funnier and more interesting than my heroines. LOL! But you're right, if I ever write their stories, they will become boring balls of anxiety. :)
I love the idea of your characters all getting together for a dinner party. That would be kind of fun just to play with sometime, even if it never went anywhere.
Hal - I know that actress! But I can't remember her name right now. It's eastern European, I believe. And I checked the two at the bottom of the previous page. I'm almost certain those aren't this same woman. LOL! What am I missing?!
Hellie - I never think of the heroes as being anything like me, but of course they are. Maybe less obviously though. Their perceptions anyway. There are things my characters, male or female, would simply never do. Because I would never do them.
But shouldn't that be a problem? Is it cheating to keep them in my comfort zone?
And I mean cheating them and the reader and probably making for a less interesting story over all.
Ter - Leelee Sobieski? That's who it looks like to me, but I can't tell for sure.
And yeah, I've spent half the morning trying to figure out if the girl on the previous page is the same one or not. lol.
I think I may be the only one who didn't have a heroine who matched what type of girl she was. Kiki got "girl next door" (surprising really... I didn't know there was such a type of girl next door) and I got "old hollywood sexy".
My characters just seem to come to me. They whisper in my ear. Tease me with a bit of their story and I have to go from there. I'm too curious to NOT know what's going to happen. It's just sometimes the story is TOO complicated for me to write down coherently.
But my core heroine seems to be "history issues". They can't seem to get away from their past lives, incidents, troubles.
That's her name, Hal! Just doesn't look the same to me, but they're makeup and eyes look quite a bit alike. It's hard to tell.
Sin - You realize YOU took the test for Kiki. LOL! Maybe you're a closet girl next door. Stranger things have happened. The girl next door could be a super secret ninja, right?
Issues. Something I'm quite familiar with.
I agree that my heroines have qualities of me in them. I wouldn't say any one of em are exactly me though. Just different pieces.
And I've definitely read some authors who's heroines and heroes blend together. I don't necessarily find it a bad thing, if I liked them in the first place.
I wonder if there's a way to avoid this though. I mean, we all prize similar things. Courage. Tenderness. Even stubbornness in its rightful place. Physical attractiveness. Etc. So, for them not to share traits would mean they'd have to have some negative traits. Am I making any sense?
There are things my characters, male or female, would simply never do. Because I would never do them.
But shouldn’t that be a problem? Is it cheating to keep them in my comfort zone?
I don't think so because I think you're talking about characteristics that would make them "anti-heroic" if they displayed them. We like the bad boy/girl, the anti-hero--but in the end, they have to become tamed to some extent. More "heroic". So if they did do something less integrity-based, they had other characteristics to make up for it and they'd have to atone for the other negatives in their personality. Character arc, grow from the experience.
But...it might be interesting to explore characters who do something you'd never do. I do wonder if it'd be a growth experience for the author to experience doing something through their character, to see it from the other side. *shrugs* I don't think it necessarily makes a better book or story though.
I think you could have characters who are more "questionable", but so long as you've made clear about their code of ethics (such as they are)--then you're fine. I doubt SEP is necessarily as obnoxious as Sugar Beth is--and in principle would not like such a person--but she found a code of ethics for Sugar Beth we could all root for.
Laurell K. Hamilton has her characters doing LOTS of things I think LKH would never do in real life, but she seems to manage it quite well. At least I believe it. *LOL*
Marn - I guess that's what I'm asking, should our characters sometimes have some negative traits? Don't they need something negative to overcome? To grow from?
Hellie - I went right to Sugar Beth too. Think that worked because the Sugar Beth in the present in that book is not the same Sugar Beth she was in the past?
I mean, I have a heroine (coming up) that is a recovering alcoholic. That's negative, but less of a character flaw. To me a character flaw would be meanness or selfishness or greed. Alcoholism is more the symptom of something else IMO.
*stumbles in*
Morning, Pirates. I just woke up, and I never sleep this late. Stayed up too late watching my current TV crush -- at least he inspired an upcoming blog post.
This is a very intriguing topic, Terri. I would say my heroes definitely share a core personality, but I hope they aren't interchangeable.
And I suppose my heroines share similar traits -- they're all definitely braver than I am though. LOL
This week I had a hard time trying to find the "right" heroine for my hero (he has a cameo in my book that is out on sub right now), so I kinda know his personality. I couldn't get hers right for anything and this rarely happens -- it finally clicked when I made her less serious. But since my books are always humorous ones, that should have occurred to me a lot sooner. LOL
Okay, who's got the industrial strength coffee ready for me?
Yes, but even the most virtuous person can be mean, selfish, and greedy in the right circumstance. It's more of "Is this a way of life" and WHEN you do it. Taking the last brownie is one thing; stealing someone's business to build a parking lot is another.
There is industrial strength coffee? Did Chance do something to the beans?
While I realize I took the test for Kiki, Kiki and I are nothing alike. (Well, save a few quirks here and there). I would never be caught dead outside without at least eye makeup on. Or be willing to crawl in a spider infested cellar (even to save my own life). lol
Donna - You're even keeping your new crush a secret?! Are you sure you're not the super secret spy around here?
See, I've never had to come up with the heroine that would fit a character. Not yet. And I almost dread the day I have to. Mine have all showed up together or introduced me to their counterpart. Isn't that nice of them? LOL!
So this sort of thing is really to what degree do they have these flaws. That makes sense.
Sin - Of course you two are nothing alike. It's not like you share a brain or anything...
Terri, this has only happened to me twice, and I just realized it's because the hero was already in existence from a previous book. Mmm. Wish I'd had that insight earlier. LOL
Because my characters generally show up together or around the same time, just like you said.
Oh, and I'm a Scorpio, so of course I keep things to myself. LOL And I shared my crush from yesterday on my blog! Good thing I'm so fickle with my "pretend boyfriends" since there's so many good ones to choose from.
You'll get to hear about this one next Wednesday. LOL
LOL, no. I have too many splits to share it with a character too...
I don't even have time to stalk pretend boyfriends. Or maybe it's a lack of energy. Either way, I'm even pretend sad. :(
Fine, I'll wait. *pouts quietly*
The heroine that started jabbering her opening scene last night is the sister of the heroine in the current MS. Sometime in the middle of writing the book, she just slid in, explained her story is next, and introduced me to her cop hero named Andrew. He never appears in this first book at all.
I need to send my characters flowers for being so generous with me.
Sin - It probably is best not to spread yourself too thin. LOL!
I should say this "heroines are alike" was not necessarily a complaint. In fact, I didn't even notice it until months after reading them all. It was more an in retrospect kind of thing.
I'd have to say this means there are heroines we'd likely never write. Who would you not want to write about? And I don't mean people with the qualities to be a villain.
Like, Hellie would probably never write about a high powered female CEO. And I'm not likely to write about CIA Operative. Sin is probably not going to write a PTA mom (unless she's also a CIA Operative) and my guess is Chance will never write about a Baptist minister finding love.
Okay, none of us would probably write that last one. LOL!
Terri, I just read a review of a book by TM that is releasing today, and the review starts out, "TM has written this book before. . ." LOL I cracked up because it wasn't meant as a compliment, and I think the reviewer expected a little more growth from the author.
Mmm, what kind of heroine would I never write? I might need more coffee to figure that out. And of course once I say "never" that'll be the next heroine that pops up demanding a story. LOL
HA! Yer right, I ain't about ta write about a Baptist minister finding love. Though I did take a villain in a story that was a minister and was trying to save the heroine...but she convinced him she didn't need saving, thanked him for the prayers and they became friends. Well, he was a minor villain. His sidekick became the real villain!
Anyway! Yes, my heroines are all over 30. Miranda is 45, Ivy looks like she's 20, but she's really in her 40s. (A genetic quirk, she doesn't physically age.) My librarian is in her late 30s, early 40s...
I don't know, that's the age where I felt myself most fully formed as an individual. And I've yet to write a virgin heroine.
I might write the Baptist minister one. I did read a Harlequin once that had a preacher in it who feel in love--and they had sex without marriage. I was totally agape the whole time I was reading it. *LOL* I wish I still had the book; it was amazing, I thought, for its time.
And I concur: hell no to the high power CEO type. Hero or heroine. Probably no to the Wall Streeters, et al. I prefer blue collar characters. The only white collars I like are teachers--and with as much work as they do, they might as well be blue collar. (I'm trying to think of other white collars I wouldn't despise. Maybe an accountant.)
But CEO types are work-driven to the point of excluding everything else from their life: family, friends, a life...and that baffles me. They also seem to scorn "knowledge for knowledge's sake"--they would never know something just for the sake of knowing; if it wasn't something that moved them up the corporate ladder, then it was a waste to know it. You know, like art or the poetry of Lord Byron. I could not get along with a character like that. I can't get along with real life people who are like that--so I would be unwilling to do the emotional investment to write their story.
The only CEO I've ever liked in fiction is the heroine of Baby Boom, and only because she ended up living in the country at the end.
I do think it's possible to write a heroine who has character flaws we find disturbing. It's all about the redemption. I enjoy watching "Drop Dead Diva" even though the heroine can be phenomenally annoying. Her shallow former life rises up and sometimes is so blech...but it's all about reforming her... I don't think it would be an easy role for me to write, but I can really admire what I see being portrayed on that screen every week.
And the actress! To be a plus size woman, who portrays and carries herself as if she were still the size 2 she was before she died... It's an amazing thing to watch... She is one dynamite actress.
But I digress...
Hey, one of my favorite books is by Leslie Langtry and it's her first book- the assassin who is a PTA mom. Love that book. Love Leslie. She's a riot.
But, me, myself? Hell no. Not that being a PTA mom is boring by any means, it's just not my cup of tea.
Hellie - The problem is, not all CEOs are as you describe them. The owner of my company has a degree in Graphic Arts. I worked for another big time executive who had artwork on loan to museums. (That's the one where I was receptionist and Deion Sanders called. Very odd.) It does take a high level of ambition to get to that position, but that's the fun of creating the character the way you want.
I think all those Harlequin Presents CEOs have created a bad stereotype. LOL!
Chance - So you aren't interested in writing about female characters who aren't totally sure of themselves and who they are? If I'd have guessed about Miranda's age based on what I know of her, I'd have put her in her early 30s.
I don't think I'd want to write a heroine under 25. I'd spend the entire book lecturing her about how she knows nothing and I doubt that would get me anywhere. LOL!
Donna - I almost missed you! Yes, I don't see that as a compliment. LOL! And I think you've already answered the question. You would much enjoy writing an overly serious character. My heroines are always uptight (wonder why?) and it sounds like yours are foot loose and fancy free. (That's a compliment, btw.)
Chance - Maybe that's why I never watch that show. Characters who are phenominally annoying are, well, annoying to me. LOL! That's why I can't stand a lot of the reality shows about non-celebs. You'll never catch me watching the Real Housewives, Mommy Swap, the Kardashians, or that Jersey Shore shit (which I think is the worst thing EVER.)
I don't think all CEOs are like Donald Trump...but there is something about the authority and prestige of that position that would be interesting to play with as a character.
The CEO of the company my husband worked for...which went bankrupt eventually...but. In the flush times, he was still very approachable, very alert and aware and as things went bad, he cut his own salary to $1 a year...trying to keep things together.
Steph said he'd go back to work for him if an opportunity arose, because he proved himself a man with character. Not his fault things didn't work out.
And some CEOs? Totally their crap that sinks a company... So, they are just like all the rest!
I don’t think I’d want to write a heroine under 25. I’d spend the entire book lecturing her about how she knows nothing and I doubt that would get me anywhere
LMAO! I read a comtemp where the heroine was only 21 or 22, and people kept excusing her (really, really idiotic)choices based on her age, and the whole book I just wanted to lecture the girl. Not the way to keep readers invested *g*
Sin - I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the PTA mom. Or any of these types of characters. But it seems like if it's "not your cup of tea" as you say, then we wouldn't enjoy writing it. I wouldn't enjoy writing about sheiks or yacht racers or even doctors.
I think all those Harlequin Presents CEOs have created a bad stereotype.
Probably. Like secret babies. But stereotypes exist for a reason like cliches. There is some truth in them, deep down. I'm not saying you shouldn't avoid them or twist them--I just saying your CEOS strike me more as an exception than a rule. CEOs are work driven to the point of almost all else or they wouldn't be CEOs. I can't imagine you'd own big prospering companies if you weren't working all the time. For them, I suppose it's fun, but we don't have the same sense of fun. But go ahead, defend your business majors. Someone on this ship has to.
Exactly, Hal! LOL! I was 24 when I got married and I still wish someone would have sat me down and told me I was being an idiot. :)
Hellie - I'm not necessarily defending business majors. My VP is a total workaholic who got where she is because she was willing to work nearly 24/7. She's hinted that I could reach that level in this company and my brain started screaming "I DON'T WANT TO WORK THAT MUCH!" lol!
But hoodwinking any kind of character across the board hits a button for me. Though you're totally right, logically those stereotypes come to exist for a reason.
Yup! Hal, you got it. If I wrote a book with a heroine that young, I'd keep shaking me head at her and pontificating...I'd give her an aunt or co-worker that would keep trying to impart wisdom... So, I don't!
Terri - There is still something about Deb/Jane that is intriguing to watch. And the growth arc of the character, from her basic well-meaning but totally boobish Deb to the intelligent and practical Jane... The mix of the two realities makes a fascinating character.
And she's usually the boobish Deb in her dreams. last week, where Jane kept haunting her with the idea that no one every mourned for Jane because Deb stepped in and took over her body...and that isn't fair...that was really fascinating! To see Deb come to see that point...that was a growth arc I enjoyed watching.
And now anyone who doesn't watch the show is going... "What?" ;-)
One of the great things about writing is taking those stereotypes and turning them on their heads. Which also includes not taking the easy way out. IE, CEO realizes she's missed out on life and decides to sell the company, get married and raise kids, join the PTA...and is totally blissful now.
That's also a stereotype I wouldn't buy. People change, but books where characters switch gears into total reverse just don't ring true to me. They can veer onto a different course, but the drive and ambition that would carve a CEO wouldn't just settle into soccar Mom bliss... Unless that drive and ambition was never really there...
Or they'd be the soccar Mom from hell...which negates the bliss part. But I would buy!
Chance - I'm still not tuning in. LOL! But more because I'm trying to break the TV addiction, remember? I don't need yet another show to watch.
And that is a good point. How far can you change a character before you change who they are entirely? I'm writing a lawyer heroine who never really wanted to be a lawyer, and that's clear from the get go. So by the end of the book when she gives up the fancy firm and big city, I hope it'll be believable.
I was 24 when I got married and I still wish someone would have sat me down and told me I was being an idiot.
Me too! I still can't figure out what I was thinking. I heard on the radio recently that if you marry before 25, you have an 85% chance of divorcing. Can you believe that? Now, in our 30's, we've learned how to make it work well for both of us, but boy were there some bad years in there. Waaaaaaay too young.
Hal - The irony is that my parents married at 21 and 43 years later are still together. Heck, when my mom was 24, she was pregnant with her second child - ME! LOL! But as Hellie says, that's an exception to the rule these days. My ex's parents married at 15 and 19, still together 42 years later.
No idea how you make that work.
Chance, I think your last post made my eyes cross. LOL
Terri, my heroines tend to be a little more footloose I suppose -- but only because they're in a STORY. LOL So they can cut loose and have fun. Of course, they also are a bit neurotic, but I have no idea where they get that. :)
Hellie, having been involved with workaholic men, I totally get what you're saying about the CEO heroes. I like their Alpha-ness, but hey, if you don't have TIME to spend all that money, I'm not all that interested.
CEO is just the job. The archetype that goes with the CEO--since I don't see "free spirits" as working as CEOs (though I'm sure 2nd will mention one)--is the type of hero I don't really want to write about. Unless it's to bring him down a peg and chill him out. I don't think I could love a "Chief" or "Boss" archetype just as they are. (And I'm referencing the writer's archetype book that references chiefs and bosses--I like it but everyone else is free to invent their own archetypes. I prefer to think they already exist and we make our hero/ines from the types.) Pretty much every other archetype I could identify with in some way, that I figured I could write about a character that had that archetype, but not the Chief or Boss. I would be too tempted to make them a villain because through my perception filter, that's what they are to me.
But perhaps it would depend on the spin. The chief archetype is supposed to be like the nobleman as well as the CEO. Perhaps this is where using a historical platform offers a sort of filter where you could write about characters you wouldn't normally like.
Terri, regarding your lawyer heroine -- it will be TOTALLY believable. :) Almost every lawyer I know (myself included) do not want to be lawyers. The majority of them want to be writers actually.
So yeah, your story will work fine. :)
No idea how you make that work.
Be too poor to afford the divorce. *LOL* I also think a lot of women stay in marriages because they lack the education to better their circumstances effectively--and feel they are too old to start over again. Better the devil you know than the devil you don't.
I can buy something like a lawyer who became one due to expectations and eventually decides to leave. I mean, the character isn't based around being a lawyer, but on fulfilling the expectations of others... That, I buy!
So, the CEO who stepped into Daddy's shoes because she's a Daddy's girl...because she has to prove to Daddy she can do it because Daddy always wanted a boy... Her switching gears I buy.
You know, it all gets down to the CORE of the character! Not the role they play, but why they play that role...
Drop Dead Diva ain't for everyone... But there are scenes that just pop with such cleverness and coolness... I may end up buying it on DVD so I can watch and see if I can figure out what works so brilliantly for me.
You know, it all gets down to the CORE of the character! Not the role they play, but why they play that role…
That I can get behind. Mr. Thornton (Richard Armitage for the rest of us) in North & South is a CEO; and I like him (even though he's very unlikable.) But you understand WHY he's so driven--and I can accept that he fears being poor/broke again and being destitute, not able to provide for his family. He fears not being able to provide for his workers who also have families--and I think by extension Thornton feels responsible for. To me, he's trying to protect them, which I enjoy.
I read a category once where the heroine was a CEO. She was the classic heroine, late 20's, sweet and a bit unsure of herself, generally friendly and self-deprecating. And now and then reference would be made to her running a huge PR firm in New York and it totally threw me for a loop each time. This was the classic girl-next-door. There was *now way* this girl was running a Manhattan PR firm off-screen
Hey, I married at 21! And 30 years later am still happily married! ;-)
I'm still trying to get what you wrote Hellie... Donna isn't the only one with crossed-eyes this morning. Let me read it again and see if I can figure it out...
*LOL* Hal, that cracks me up. I'd think the same thing if I was reading it...and also how can you BE a CEO and run things OFF SCREEN? I don't think that's possible. At least you can't run it off screen and be successful at it.
I could live with most of those qualities for the CEO--sweet, friendly, self-deprecating--I think you could find a CEO who is like that, but I don't think a CEO could be unsure of herself/himself. That's the hallmark quality of a CEO.
Hellie - I'm with you on not liking that "type" of hero, regardless of his job title. And I like how you can twist that in the historical. Would you consider a Duke who is in parliament, like Elijah, to be that type? In historicals, it works better for me. But I've read the driven CEO and liked him too.
Not every character type can work for every reader. Which is why it's so nice that we have such a wide range to choose from. LOL!
I did like Thornton, but I hated the heroine of that story. Really did not like her one bit.
Hellie - that's my new pretend boyfriend! Only he's a little different in the Robin Hood series I'm watching. (A moment of silence while I remember the scene where he took off his shirt. . .)
Okay, I'm getting out of order.
Donna - That makes me feel so much better. And don't think I won't be hitting you up as a source of research. LOL! (All classified, of course.)
Chance - We always have to figure out why a character is the way he/she is. And if we don't convey that to the reader, we're screwed. (To put it in clinical terms...)
Hellie - My parents have been quite poor for a long time. LOL! Or like Emma Bombeck said, too tired to bother divorcing. My mom is the most passive person I've ever met, I'm sure that helps. Unfortunately, I don't have a passive bone in my body. Forever singlehood, here I come!
Chance - You're another exception, dear. On so many levels...
I love Richard as the "bad boy" in Robin Hood. *swoons* With or without his shirt!
Donna - Kiddo and I were ADDICTED to that show. Though the third season got even cheesier than the first two. LOL! I fondly remember when he took off his shirt...
Kiddo would sigh everytime he appeared on screen. LOL! She has good taste, I have to give her that.
I'd say Elijah is definitely that type. And I enjoyed their love story, but as a man, he's never one I'd go for. He was quintessential Chief.
A lot of time in the archetypes, they talk about how you can have more than one--or be primarily one, but have aspects of one or two others. So I see a lot of chiefs who are also warriors (protectors) or professors (intellectuals) or best friends (sweet beta boy next door)--technically if they're the duke, they're the chief, but they demonstrate other qualities more.
But Elijah is very much just a CEO stuck in the 1700s. And if I'd read his story without the others leading up to it and had more background on him, I probably wouldn't have liked his story as well as I did.
Eloisa is just an example of how there are exceptions to every rule. And how voice and great characterization beyond archetype can keep a reader enthralled.
Totally with you, Hal. You could maybe run a little company off screen. Less than ten employees. And that's still a maybe. But you can't run a large firm, especially not in NYC and not be fully hands on and there. Not unless you have some really talented VPs on your staff. And you'd still need to be there more often than not.
Not unless you have some really talented VPs on your staff.
And most of them would be gunning for your job so you still wouldn't have it for long.
Chance – You’re another exception, dear. On so many levels…
Hmmmm...so many ways that can be read... ;-)
I like that idea, BTW, a CEO on the side. Like...you want fries with that?
So, if we establish the why with enough foundation, we could all write the Baptist preacher convincingly...
I don't think I'm that good a writer... ;-) Because I think, maybe...just maybe...this is where the CORE of who we are dances back into the picture. Can we write a character that is so far from our CORE and sell it?
More importantly, would we want to?
Passive helps. Being inclined to pick every battle is not a personality trait that inclines you to long-term relationships.
You don't both have to have it, clearly, but one of you better.
Can we write a character that is so far from our CORE and sell it?
More importantly, would we want to?
Don't know if I could. I'd feel like I was selling out.
I've been watching Robin Hood on the Netflix "Watch Instantly" thing, so I can watch several episodes at a time, and I noticed a slight difference in tone between Season 1 and Season 2. I've got to slow down though or I'll be into Season 3 and won't have any more to watch.
Of course, by then I'll be on to a different crush. LOL
Wonder if I can still use my blog post for next week. . .Yeah, I can. LOL
I like Elijah. LOL! Whereas Villier I could take or leave. But I know he became the fav of that series. Of course, Damon was my favorite. (No shocker there, I'm sure.)
Chance - I mean it with total affection, of course. And a wink. ;)
I think I'd like to try writing a character outside of my usual type. But I'd see it as more a challenge than selling out. If I were to do it simply because that "type" of character was hot right now and I thought I'd write to the trend, then it would definitely be selling out.
Clearly, I'd never write a vampire. LOL!
Donna - The way we are around here, we'll all forget this conversation entirely long before next Wednesday. :)
What conversation?
I love my memory...makes life always bright and new!
Time to head out with doggums and breath some sea air...
Fascinating convo...glad my headache got me up early enough to partake!
LOL, Terri -- you're right. Probably because there's so many threads to keep track of! LOL
And see how easy it was to get me to spill my secrets? :)
I'm clearly not the mind-ninja that Hellie is.
Memory loss does have it's uses, Chance. Though right now it's just annoying for me.
I'm not sure I had a favorite hero from that series. I loved the heroines--but the men...none of them live up to the sheer appeal of Mayne for me. I loved the stories and I thought the heroes and heroines were a fit for each other--but at the close of the book, I was very content to let them have their HEA. I wouldn't fight the heroine for the hero. *LOL* Every hero had just enough flaws that I was like, "Yeah, I wouldn't put up with your ass. You aren't that cute."
But I love how Eloisa does that...she makes her heroes feel more realistic. They're aren't always noble or good or great. They're men. Delicious as they are, great for a snack...but for forever? No thanks.
I’m clearly not the mind-ninja that Hellie is.
Sorry. My ex-boyfriend is the mind-ninja, not me.
Hellie, I like the idea of "delicious hero snacks". Kind of like having appetizers or canapes for your meal, instead of an entree. No wonder my fictional crushes change so often. LOL
They're men. Delicious as they are, great for a snack...but for forever? No thanks.
Funny, this is how I feel about men in general.
And I'd say there's a difference between a mind-fuck and a mind-ninja. The ninja being on the side of good.
Boy, when y'all go to lunch, you really go to lunch.
Wow, the bluff, the Pacific...sigh. I live in paradise and don't mind crowing about it!
Men as snacks...hmmm... This is why we're so curvy. We think of men as snacks instead of a work out!
I have a theory that each and every one of us has buried within, every human character trait known to man and a few that have yet to be discovered.
Which of these traits is observable and which are suppressed, effectively define the individual.
So when writing your fictional characters, I believe that you can simply dig deep within your self to find the greedy or the saintly or the sexy or the sinful facet, and bring it to the surface.
The effect can be dramatically observed at a martial arts contest by observing the audience. The most genteel and well behaved people may suddenly become enthralled in the action and start screaming for blood or even worse. I speak from personal experience at all-in wrestling bouts, not that I personally have lost control but I have felt the impulse!
Fascinating blog bosun!
I sense a strong spirit of inquiry from your writing .... I reckon you might make a fine scholar if you changed your profession. :D
Yes, 2nd, I suspect that's exactly why we're curvy. *LOL*
*Throws Chance over the side*
Q - I have enough trouble finding answers in my regular job. Though I could be a scholar, provided I could focus on one or two things. I loved my sociology classes, so I'd love to study people and cultures. Maybe some day (she says wistfully...)
I can't believe I totally forgot to share the good news. I finally got my check for the Woman's World story. I have officially been PAID for my writing!!!
WHOOT! I'm going to make a copy and print it out. Sort of like framing that first dollar. That's not so goofy, right?
*fishes Chance out of the water and hands her a towel*
So are you going to set up a Hottie buffet? With all kinds of appetizers and tapas and things of that nature? :) (Don't even tell me I gave you another idea for Sunday's Hotties post. LOL)
Today is getting away from me. Usually rain makes me write more. But I'm a lizard today. Maybe I should just go watch my "boyfriend" in his leather outfit. . .for research, you know. (Even if I don't write that time period. Shhh!)
Wooooooooooo hooooooooooo, Terri! Congrats!
Making a copy is SO not goofy! I think it makes perfect sense! Do it. :)
Did they pay you enough to buy the mag as a souvenir? *grin*
Why is it necessary to be curvy to think of men as snacks? It seems to me that your looking through the wrong end of the telescope ... if I may say so! LOL
And thanks for the towel, Dead Reckoning...
Yes! The Bo'sun is the first official made-money-with-her-writing pirate, right?
And Q - I have no doubt you're right to a certain extent...the possibilities of core identity are endless. It's the probabilities that are limited. To my mind.
I think Bo'sun has a lock on that, Chance.
I won some $$ on my contest entry (the check hasn't arrived yet), but it's not PUBLISHED. Terri's is for PUBLISHING her writing. :)
No, that's cool. I think you should frame it! I like those plaques of "earn your first dollar" bits--so that's cool.
I love Q's theory by the way. I agree with it, though I'm disturbed that somewhere in me is a trait that would be predisposed to being a CEO! Ugh, disgusting!
Q - She got paid enough to buy lots of this magazine! Lots and lots... ;-)
It's not that we have to be curvy, Q, it's that seeing them that way makes us curvy. But now I think the joke is lost.
Yes, there will be framing. And yes, Q, they paid me enough to buy the mag. In fact, I could by hundreds of them. :)
Good idea, Terri -- then they'll have to print a second run! LOL
Yeah, Q...it's about being focused on snacks in general and less on work-outs... ;-)
OMG, I had to share this because it's so true. On Jenny Crusie's blog she wrote: "And I kept writing because writers are like sharks: if they stop writing, the book dies."
Hellie - I saw that today and thought it would make an awesome blog topic over here.
And I think we've missed Q's point that women obsess far too much about their weight. Far more than any man would.
I'd write the blog, but right now, I'm a dead shark. *LOL*
LOL, Hellie -- I like that. Does the book come back if we clap our hands and REALLY believe?
*hoping my Tinkerbell reference doesn't flop*
How come I'm not reading Crusie's blog? I must go add it to my list. . .
I'm willing to do some clapping and "really believing" to bring back my book. I'd try just about anything. I was having a "writing meeting" with Sin on Saturday and I told her the things I was doing--things I'd *NEVER* do--and she was, "Who are you and what have you done with Hellie?"
I'm reminding myself of a character in a book who doesn't believe in mumbo-jumbo superstition nonsense who finally reaches a point where he's so freaked out, he's wearing garlic, carrying crosses, and all the other absurd things people do to protect themselves from bad luck.
Maybe you need to rent Jaws. Find inspiration.
And I really need to get back to revising this damn book. 48 hrs and this house thing will be settled one way or another.
OK, I have a TinkerBell I tore off a toy I bought in Orlando. I'm so going to get her and perch her near my laptop!
Oh, and I bought kiddo a Tinkerbell shirt at Disney. I could squeeze into it and wear it to write. I mean, no one sees me in my house alone. I don't think Bumbles would be too scarred.
I just read her blog and loved the part about the problem with great ideas is they're IDEAS, not plots. D'oh! That has happened a time or two. LOL
Okay, I didn't get the clapping hands thing, but I do get the "really believing" thing. I just keep thinking "I thought a bell had to ring" but that's a totally different movie.
Terri, it was when Tinkerbell had a near-death experience and we all had to clap to bring her back to life, because we believed in magic or something. LOL
It's been a while. That's the only portion that is still stuck in my brain at the moment!
Donna - I totally believe you. LOL! See memory issues mentioned above.
And I'm having a little freak out right this second. Don't mind me.
Why are you freaking out now? House back on? *LOL*
I no longer want the condo, for various good reasons, but just found out backing out now will get me sued. And no, I have no idea why this wasn't mentioned to nor occured to me before.
The contract as it stands expires in 48 hours. If the appraisal is approved tomorrow, which I fear it will be, I'll be obligated to buy a condo I absolutely do not want. If it is denied, I'm off the hook. So my life is once again in limbo and at the whims of third parties I don't even know.
If there was ever a case of "careful what you wish for" this would be it.
Terri, have you had a home inspection? Because if there are "issues" in there, that is usually good cause for not going through with a sale.
Sorry you're going through this. It sounds like such an ordeal.
Donna - We've had everything, this has been going on since the end of June. It's cleared on every front, except one. And that one could go in my favor or it could not.
This is the epitomy of irony when I actually want something NOT to get approved instead of the opposite way around. LOL!
There is a funny quotation--and I can't think of the author or I could find the direct quote--that goes along the lines:
Whatever you want most in life you cannot have, so if you want something really bad, try to want it a little less.
I never know what to say when I get here late. I always have many thoughts moving in different directions. Ter's post today was so thought-provoking that my thoughts are moving in more directions than usual.
My heroines have bits of me in them, but I don't think they are reflections of me. I think they are very different from one another. Certainly in looks, life experiences, and profession, they are different. Each of them makes choices that I can't imagine myself making, but I think at the most essential level they share fundamental values with me and with one another. I'm not sure I could create a pov character that didn't. Maybe that's why my books don't have clear-cut villains. I'm still thinking about the comfort zone issue.
I love the Tink allusion, Donna. I still have a very clear memory of being seven and clapping with all my might when my teacher read that scene to the class.
Tink has a lot in common with my muse, come to think of it. This description applies to both: "Tink was not all bad: or, rather, she was all bad just now, but, on the other hand, sometimes she was all good. Fairies have to be one thing or the other, because being so small they unfortunately have room for only one feeling at a time. They are, however, allowed to change, only it must be a complete change."
Ah, Janga! That was sweet. I don't remember that bit about fairies! I love it!
Happy to report, I have consulted an attorney and feeling much better about the situation now!
Janga - I'm still not clear cut on the comfort zone thing either. I've been thinking, what do I do if this Erotic Romance sells? Do I write another and try to get more....erotic? That would be way out of my comfort zone.
It's those fundamental values I don't think we can shake. The big stuff, like having integrity, respecting others (who earn/deserve it), and the value of life I wouldn't be able to compromise on.
That is a sweet bit about fairies.
Terri, that's great news -- I'm glad you're feeling better about everything.
Janga, I love that your muse and Tink share that "all or nothing" aspect. :)
Good to know. We'd wondered where you'd disappeared--but figured we'd know for sure when the mysterious arson story came across the news.
Oh, well, technically I was driving home from work. But I talked to him while I was driving (don't tell Oprah) and he had some very important information I needed to know. Information that makes a huge difference to the situation.
No worries about impending arson. Now, I can't rule out the ice picks...
Here we go with ice picks again! You know, I don't keep any of those in the bar...just plain old too tempting!
Ladies, ladies. No details! You have to preserve your innocence! LOL
I'm chipping ice, that's all.
*tries to look innocent*
I'm not sure innocent and ice pick go in the same sentence...
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