Wednesday, August 18, 2010
King’s Cross
A couple of weeks ago, Renee Lynn Scott offered up Renee Ryan’s layering method in conversation. (You rock, thank you Renee.) I don’t think I’ve come across a more beneficial two pages of craft instruction in a long time. Maybe ever. This was exactly what I needed and, since reading it, I’ve been pondering how this is going to make my manuscript better.
In my pondering, I’ve realized my characters interact in a place like where Harry Potter goes when he dies in Deathly Hallows. He ends up in a great white space, wearing no clothes. He’s not uncomfortable, not cold or hot. He’s just himself in… nowhere. After he starts noticing this, a bench appears, then another chair, etc. Towards the end of the scene, as he’s leaving this blank space, he realizes it’s King’s Cross Station. That’s the sort of setting I give my characters, poor dears. A great basic, blank space. Props are included only if I’m forced to add them.
I also realize they don’t move. Not unless it’s necessary. So it’s as if they’re nearly paralyzed in Harry’s King’s Cross Station.
Good thing no one’s bought the movie rights to my story. That’d be a really dull motion picture.
In some ways, this realization has been liberating. I can see that the lack of movement and setting is probably taking away from my story’s overall appeal. Now I’ve pinpointed this problem and I can come back and fix it when I’m done with the first draft.
On the down side, I have to figure out how to “do” movement and setting better. Sigh.
I just picked up Elizabeth Hoyt’s Wicked Intentions. Already, I’m amazed at how good she is at this. Great movement, great setting, done in a way that enhances her great Deep POV. She’s my idol. I now have to figure out how to do what she does. (*eye roll* right, like that’s easy.)
So, any suggestions on how to enhance movement and setting? Something from Renee Ryan's layering handout you feel you do well or could improve? Why, how? Thoughts about layering in general?
**** This blog dedicated to Hellion. XOXO. Oh, wait, no smooches or hugs. Just blown kisses from afar. Like five states.
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83 comments:
OMG, another blog requiring thinking about how I write!
*panic setting in*
Wing it! Wing it!
How to enhance movement and setting... Think! Think!
*wipe sweat from face*
Uh, dancing! Yeah, the best example I can think of for this is waltzing with your characters. Dance begins one step at a time, someone leads...you have a dance floor, you have dancing, what they wear, the music...and eventually it all comes together. The music speeds up, other couples join the floor...element by element, think of it as a waltz.
Enhance? Did I enhance movement and setting the way she asked? Who asked anyway? I'm so confused! Well, I tried to offer a technique... Man, I need a tall ice cold mojito...
*walks toward the bar to look for some mint leaves*
I'm bad at this. I had a CP look at my manuscript recently and she pointed out several places where she needed more setting details to be able to envision the scene. I realized that I frequently skip setting information while reading—it detracts from my ability to envision a scene, LOL. But that's just me ;) . I recently read a book that had all of those kinds of setting details, and it was just such a rich experience, it's inspired me.
I tried to really think about this after I went through that CP's notes, and I ended up doing a short blog series on setting—but I definitely have more to go. Next revision pass: more setting and put some clothes on these people!
Wait -- Harry Potter DIES?! Well, guess I don't need to read the books now. LOL
Marn, I'm glad I'm not the only one who writes like this. I'm more interested in what the characters are saying to each other, so that's what I focus on when I'm drafting. Then I have to go back in and give the details -- but since it feels like I'm watching a movie as I write it, and when I re-read it, the picture is still there. The hard part is trying to use new ways to explain some of the same gestures or movements.
Welcome, Jordan! I often skip reading the setting details too, because my brain fills it in based on other info that's there. But when it's done well, I feel that same sense of envy/inspiration.
BEST. BLOG. EVER. Better than chicken salad. *starts singing "Harry's in theaters in 90 days!"*
Actually I write like this. *LOL* I'm always admiring of authors who describe rooms and outfits and people in action...but I stink at it. I always think I might be better off with screen writing. *LOL* I can write dialogue that mostly takes place in one room and the action is somewhat minimal, the kind of action I do remember to put in. *LOL* It is a lot like Harry Potter's "limbo"/King's Cross.
And I love another opportunity to rhapsodize about Wicked Intentions! *LOL* I loved that book!! I can't wait to read the rest of the series. Great characterization, vivid description. *sighs*
Do we ALL write like this? LOL.
I almost always start out with dialogue and/or action. Often the dialogue comes out in the wrong order, so I rearrange it so the beats proceed nicely. Then -- sigh -- try to picture exactly what the characters are doing as they flirt or argue or whatever. If at all possible, have them do something that makes the characterization more vivid. It's so tempting just to make them pace or some such thing, but one can't have every character pacing or clenching his/her fists, right? Add facial expressions, disheveled appearance, etc., but again, only if they serve to make the scene more vivid. Then, once the scene seems more or less right, squeeze out some description and make sure the characters are reacting appropriately to the physical environment... heat, cold, sun, rain, mosquitoes... uh, no. I steadfastly ignore mosquitoes. In my universe, they don't exist unless I want them to.
This is theory, though. Often all these bits and pieces come out higgledy-piggledy and have to be shuffled into place. Sigh again.
Elizabeth Hoyt, yeah. She's amazing.
Chance - LOL! I like your dancing analogy!! A little at a time, that's your suggestion. It works for everything else. Start small, work a little at a time.
Sip that mojito, chica.
Jordan - I think this is why I don't add description either. I skim a lot of that stuff too. I think that's why I love Elizabeth Hoyt and JR Ward. They add description in a way that is organic, that adds to the POV, that isn't just a basic run down on what the place looks like.
I still have your MS to read. Maybe I can point out places you can add? Though I'm not great at this yet, but I'll see if I can help. Especially because your MS is getting so squeaky clean I'm not going to be much help otherwise. LOL!!
Donna - girl you have to read to find out. Harry doesn't die, not exactly. It's really complicated. And to avoid digressing into a conversation about Rowlings amazing plotting skills (a conversation that would primarily be Hellie and I rhapsodizing about our obsessive love of these books) I'll just say please please read. They are AWESOME.
The hard part is trying to use new ways to explain some of the same gestures or movements.
This is exactly what I do. And I worry about too many adjectives and too much flowery prose. I don't want anyone rolling their eyes while they read, thing "Jeez, shut UP already!" like I confess I've done in my reading adventures. :(
Hellie - I knew you'd dig this. :) And I write dialogue better too, I think. Like a movie too. But I wonder if my dialogue would even have more punch if I layered in more movement and setting at first draft. Maybe it'd make the scene more vivid, even to me, if I forced myself to be more visual about it.
Problem is, I'm NOT a visual person. I "see" things best when I read them. When I was taking my teaching classes, they always said that most students are visual learners and that you'd reach the most of them if you include movie clips or pictures, etc. I had the HARDEST time doing that. I don't think like that. I could spend my whole life not watching TV at all. But if someone took books from me, I'd probably wither up.
Hi Barbara! Welcome!
It’s so tempting just to make them pace or some such thing, but one can’t have every character pacing or clenching his/her fists, right?
This is exactly my problem with my first drafts! (ok, ok, you caught me. it's a problem with all my drafts. LOL!!) I don't push myself out of my comfort zone on descriptions. I need to be fresher with this stuff. Really try to make the descriptions something that adds to the characters, not something any character would do.
...put some clothes on these people!
LOL! I get that. No, I don't have naked characters--at least about 90 percent or more of the time anyway, but realize I need to add in some small description of what they're wearing here and there. I think I was more aware of it in a historical, but with my contemporary setting it seems odd to fit in. Especially for the beginning. Later, I have my hero as a ghost wearing the same thing all the time so that's one solution. LOL
I think I try (not to say I'm successful) to include setting details purposefully for the characterization. The setting reflects their moods and what only they would notice, or not notice, in a particular POV; a loose brick in the walkway that the hero always trips over intending to fix, the birds sounding "scolding" because it seems that way to the heroine when she isn't where she thinks she should be, or the white and black checked foyer floor where a butler with OCD can only step on the black squares. Or it may have been the white - I can't remember now. LOL
I guess I like props actually, except clothing and how to sneak in physical descriptions of the character I'm in the POV of. I hope I have a picture of them on the cover. LOL
Btw, I am curious. What percentage would all of you put on how much of the time your hero and heroine actually are naked in the book? LOL
Hellie, I loved Wicked Intentions, too!
Scene-setting doesn't bother me so much. (Now, if only I could get that whole plot thing under control...) I just always try to give my reader enough detail that they can picture the scene that they want to, without dating my characters too much (I've read WAY too many older novels involving heroines in puffy sleeves admiring someone's 80s decor.)
Hmm. I don't know if I'm visual or not. In movies, I'm not so much noticing the details behind the actors as I'm watching the people themselves. I want to see their facial expressions, their actions, the things they do to cover other stuff. As always for me, people are the most important, not the background.
However, that said, in some shots of movies, they don't show a person. They're showing the background only--and then I have to pay attention. I remember when they showed Dumbledore's office after he died--and you saw the lemondrops on this desk. Granted it wasn't nearly the type of detail Rowling provided--the woman is brilliant with that sort of detail--but it was a nice touch.
I don't know what I'd do without books. Probably the same as you. Unless we were together, then we could tell each other stories--and that might work. *LOL*
Welcome aboard, Kate! :)
Puffy sleeves. Wow, good thing that fashion trend hasn't made a comeback, huh? Though I just saw that some store was selling modified MC Hammer pants. If that trend can return (when it should have remained in the third ring of fashion hell where it belongs) then any trend can return. I still can't figure out why anyone would want pants that make their butt look BIGGER.
Anywho....
I think that too much setting in contemporaries runs a different risk than it does in historicals. I just read Judith McNaught's Perfect recently. That was written in the 80s. So, all the contemporary references were, well, a bit amusing.
But in historicals, there's the problem of people reading them and questioning authenticity. (ie, "This hero wouldn't have had clean, straight teeth! Aren't you aware of the poor oral hygiene during this time period?!!" Ok, I joke. Sort of.)
Melissa - The setting reflects their moods and what only they would notice, or not notice, in a particular POV; a loose brick in the walkway that the hero always trips over intending to fix, the birds sounding “scolding” because it seems that way to the heroine when she isn’t where she thinks she should be, or the white and black checked foyer floor where a butler with OCD can only step on the black squares.
See, this is what I mean by it enhancing POV. The setting through the character's eyes, not as I might see it or someone else might see it. Hoyt does this SOOO well. Her first scene in Wicked Intentions is the heroine wandering through St. Giles, a very very sketchy part of town. And everything takes on a nefarious gleam through the heroine's eyes. But would it have looked like that through the eyes of a pickpocket? Or a murderer? No, probably not.
I wanna be able to paint that kind of picture when I grow up. :)
Hells - As always for me, people are the most important, not the background.
This makes perfect sense. I think movies are a great place to find character movement inspirations. Maybe I should rewatch some movies I found good at this. I have been watching Avatar, because there's something in that movie that is hitting a chord with me and I'm not exactly sure what it is yet. I've got to put my finger on it but it feels important.
I don’t know what I’d do without books. Probably the same as you. Unless we were together, then we could tell each other stories–and that might work. *LOL*
That might be the only thing that would save my sanity. :)
I'm with the skimming group. I tend to skim any description, especially paragraphs of description, so I don't tend to add it to my writing.
My thesis adviser at school went so far as to quantify the problem, saying I needed to add 50% more description/setting in my final draft.
However, with that said, I did notice something interesting. When reading my last MS to start revisions, I could tell a startling difference between random description I threw in to add more, and good description that somehow enhanced the mood or characterization. The description lines that did nothing more but...well...describe something really stood out, almost to the point of being out-of-place. The description that felt more organic, that painted a better picture, accomplished some other purpose besides *just* describing things, if that makes sense
Hal - I bet I fall into the same kind of group. Need 50% more description. And probably 50% of my current description is essentially useless. :(
The description that felt more organic, that painted a better picture, accomplished some other purpose besides *just* describing things, if that makes sense. that makes perfect sense. That's what I mean about it coming from a place of deep POV and good characterization. I've noticed the places where it's a description and setting from the character, it works sooo much better.
But in historicals, there’s the problem of people reading them and questioning authenticity.
I think that's my #1 writing inhibition. Not just for historicals, but for real places in contemporaries. I probably rely on less is more in those situations because I figure the more I talk the more chance I'm going to get myself in trouble. Hmm, that applies to real life too. LOL
the places where it’s a description and setting from the character, it works sooo much better.
Yes! I kept finding these places where I'd thrown in some sentence describing a chandelier. Or the carpet. Or the staircase. They really stood out in the re-read six months later :)
I think Hal makes an excellent point--description for sake of description isn't going to work. You'll probably end up cutting it again. Everything you write needs to add to the scene, to the characters, to the overall book. You can't use it to fluff; it must have some purpose.
(Of course, everytime I focus on the fact that everything in my scene must be necessary to carry to the book, to carry to the next scene, et al, I break out in hives. But at the same time, I know it's true. But I also know it's true that some dialogue, some characters and some description is more important than others. It's not all life and death--but whatever you put in your book better be pulling its own weight.)
Woke up not feeling well, went back to sleep. Now on my way out the door but I love this blog and I can SOOOOO relate. LOL! I'll catch up and chiime in more when I get to work!
Melissa - I probably rely on less is more in those situations because I figure the more I talk the more chance I’m going to get myself in trouble.
LOL! I completely understand. But just talking in historicals is perilous, especially when I use words that haven't been invented in 1812.
Hal - You described just a random carpet? Or a carpet with significance?
Hells - Everything you write needs to add to the scene, to the characters, to the overall book. You can’t use it to fluff; it must have some purpose.
When I realize how far I've got to go in my own MS for this, I want to crawl back in bed.
LOL. They're in an ancient castle, so for some reason, I felt compelled to describe the carpet in detail. No idea why now...at the time it seemed a nice fit. lol. Clearly it got axed in revisions
Marn, I'm not a fan of Avatar, but I was a fan of Titanic, which is basically Avatar without blue people. Cameron is good with GMC and archetypes/characterization. I think he tends to concentrate on characters first, then allows for story/plot to develop out of that. I also think he's a big Joseph Campbell fan, not apologetic about following the sort of storytelling that we all love hearing: the underdog, the hero who triumphs, the love that conquers everything, the villains who get theirs. He gets picked on for not being "original"--he clearly has a core story and uses it in all his movies--but it's the story he likes to tell and it works for him because everyone keeps going to see his stuff.
Bo'sun - feel better hon. We'll be here when you get to us. :)
Hells - I never thought of that, but you're right. Titanic was Avatar without the blue people. LOL! I'm with you though - his stories are core stories we all love, so he shouldn't be ashamed of that.
Hells - I think you're exactly right about Cameron. I love his kind of stories. Exact opposites who fall in love (sigh). I liked Titanic too. And he is good with GMC.
Hal - LOL! I thought maybe the carpet when someone was bleeding on it or something. That's a fun image. I need to start thinking of that kind of description. There's one description of mine that I read last night that I liked. Where she describes the big gaudy ruby the guy who just beat her gave her as compensation. I thought maybe I can do setting/description. I just have been too lazy. LOL!
But just talking in historicals is perilous, especially when I use words that haven’t been invented in 1812.
Xtina Dodd uses the word "clone" on the first page of her historical about a fictional country, but it's set in the 1800s. It jarred me. I googled "clone"--and the dictionary said it was first recorded as a verb in 1959. I put the book down and didn't continue with it.
My friend Susan assured me the story was good. All I could think was "Why didn't she use a different word? Copy, duplicate, reproduction, replication, replica, "sad imitation"--any of these words would not have gotten my attention as out of context."
I'm a purist though, as has been pointed out numerous times.
Hells - see, that's why I lose sleep at night.
she describes the big gaudy ruby the guy who just beat her gave her as compensation.
Nice! It's description, but it gives major insight into *both* characters. See, it's doable!
Hells – see, that’s why I lose sleep at night.
I assure you, Cameron doesn't and I doubt he worries about historical accuracy. Remember the brouhaha in Titanic when nitpickers pointed out that the DIME she pays him with has FDR's face on it? (I didn't notice, just so we're clear.)
Those people are going to exist. They're like 3% of your readers; 1% will say something because they can't resist. The other 97% won't notice if you have your Regency people watching Star Trek episodes in their living room if you make the story and characters compelling enough. Just tell your core story and stick to your characters.
Eloisa put pjs on her first hero and still hasn't lived it down even though she's published many more books and went back and changed the reprint edition. She's doing fine. You're going to do fine too.
For me, in historical accuracy, the thing that annoys me most is not the words or the historical details themselves ("My God, they're riding a train! A train isn't invented for another year!"), it's if the characters are acting too contemporary to the period. Heroines who don't think about their ruined reputations, the consequences of having sex without being married, who do things to buck the system of society--when society really could set you down several pegs. (I mean, this was a society that hanged CHILDREN until they passed that act in 1908--so the mentality and social consciousness is so much different than ours. It drives me crazy to read modern conventionality in a historical setting. I'm in the 1%--and there are always exceptions for me if the characters are compelling enough. Characters are always the most important.)
I think it can be tricky to "set the scene" and focus on the details that character would notice. (Well, I find it tricky. LOL)
I mean, you try to describe things so the reader has a sense of what the place looks like. BUT, not every person would focus on the same things. So if I were to describe the room I'm in, I may not give a great sense of the entirety of it, because I'll say "the carpet is this color" or "there's a table over there". Whereas someone else would say "the carpet is worn" or "there's way too much shit on that table".
So it's tough. I need a cookie. LOL
Cookie time sounds good.
Well, I just got caught up and there's not really anything I can add that hasn't already been said. And said well.
I will take one of those cookies though. I feel the hives from yesterday still lingering...
*passes a barrel of cookies around*
I took all the fat and calories out of them ahead of time. Oh, and they make all your writing worries disappear too. :)
Donna, I think you'll make more money selling those cookies than you would writing books. *LOL*
LOL -- you're RIGHT! Well, except I can't really cook, so they taste like sh*t. LOL
*spits out cookie*
See? LOL
I'm off to go do some writing and seeing what the rest of the world is up to. I'll check back later!
OK, I'm back and a little late again. Sigh. Well, woke up the husband talking to a person about a job, so it was a nice way to wake up...!!!
Anyway! Details like setting, clothing etc. So much depends on the POV and whether those things are important to the character. I love authors who create characters that are observant. And that will often focus on...for example...the color and texture of a particular carpet. There's a reason they focus on this.
Buying time for the brain to catch up with everything that is going on. Looking for some clues reg. who they are with or where they are. Reacting with envy because it's a blahblahblah carpet and their great aunt had one it's worth a forture and these people are treating it like it's nothing more than a dishrag and...
The details tell you about the character. What is important to them. When I wrote the waltz scene, Emily was feeling like Cinderella. The setting, the music, her partner, her clothing...it was about forgetting all her insecurities and fears and losing herself in the dream of where she was and the arms that held her.
There was no dialoge in that scene, but it's one of my favorites.
I think it can be tricky to “set the scene” and focus on the details that character would notice.
Settings very familiar to the character, like their home, I think are the most difficult. It's like if someone asked you to describe your own house, where would you start?
What would I notice first? I need some point of reference. Like if I were bringing someone to my house, I'd notice the mess first and excuse it. I guess that would be a form of description! Or if I'd been away for some time, I'd see things differently, maybe nostalgic. Or, even returning from short trips, I'd notice what was out of place first, like the grass needing to be cut or the door handle falling off the door (need to fix that).
I think I have a couple places where it's because of a 'cold' start (no point of reference) I don't describe well. I think I prefer to switch it to a POV of whoever is 'new' to the scene.
Melissa - I'm with you on what the character would notice in their own place. My heroine is not going to think "I'm sitting in my blue recliner while he settles onto my cream colored couch." In an effort to reveal an abundance of book covered shelves in my heroine's living room, I had the hero ask if she had stock in a bookshelf company somewhere. Since I'm in her POV and the books would not stand out to her, I have to figure out how to bring them up.
The problem I have is using descriptions to show things about the characters. Be it how a person looks or the first time in a new room, what I choose to describe tells the reader a ton of information about the characters. Or it should. What my heroine notices says a lot about her. How I describe the hero's living room says a lot about him.
In other words, nothing is ever simple, is it?
As usual, my problem is the opposite of the one most of you have. A good part of my revision time is spent cutting details, but even then my books, if they are ever published, will definitely fall into the group most of you won't read or will skip sections.
I think some of these differences are matters of style rather than merit. Romancelandia has its equivalent of both Hemmingway(simple prose, lots of dialogue, almost no description) and Faulkner (rich prose, internal monologues, lots of description) as well as many who fall between the two extremes. I love the luxurious language of Judith Ivory's books, for example, but not everyone does. Your disliking Ivory doesn't make her a bad writer, it just means you prefer a different style.
I'm never going to write spare, unadorned prose. Some of you may never write lush, embellished prose. I think there's an audience for both styles.
Janga reminded me of something. I never skim. I'm that little kid afraid she'll miss something if she blinks. This is why it was impossible to get me to bed as a child. So everytime y'all mention skimming, I think "How do they do that?!"
I love Janga! Thank you for reassuring us there is an audience for both, whichever we're more naturally disposed to.
And I would never skim your work. Remember: Marsha Moyer. You'll be just as delicious to read, I know.
Bo'sun, I don't understand how anyone skims the sex scenes consistently.
I mean, I've skipped one or two in my time, but only because they were that poorly written--not due to the sex, but because the characters seemed more like siblings than lovers. But to skip all the time? I never understood this when I was a teenager and people told me, "Oh, I skip those scenes", always in a pious tone, and all I could think was, "Well, I ain't gonna."
I often skim. But it's not really the description I'm skimming over. Like yesterday, I picked up a book that I kept having the question in my mind, "is this a sequel?" I'm quite sure it wasn't, but the first few chapters were all relating the exciting prior events of the hero and heroine falling in love while he had amnesia, then she got pregnant, had the baby, got kidnapped, he thought she and the baby were dead, and he discovered he was a prince, finds out the baby is alive and she's in the hospital. And the story STARTED with him going to the hospital. All I can say is a big reminder to myself...don't do that. LOL I skimmed to the end.
Nothing to do with setting. Bo'Sun started it. LOL
Haven't been able to read through all the comments, but can't resist chiming in on this topic. "Scene setting" is something I harp on with my CPs all the time.
I LOATHE 'talking heads' mostly because few writers (except Janet Evanovich) can pull it off successfully. Either that, or I'm suffering PTSD from over exposure to Hemingway in college...
I try to make the setting another character in the story. In my books, the setting is an essential ingredient so I like to give it 'equal time,' filtered through the perceptions of my hero and heroine, of course. It does help to have one main character (usually the heroine in my books) who is unfamiliar with the surroundings and therefore 'seeing' things with fresh eyes.
Hope that makes a bit of sense.
Must run but hope to return to this interesting discussion later.
AC
Well, if you have a character who keeps a sloppy home (me) then all I can say is...trust me, lots of observation goes on, by me. I feel sad because I can't seem to get it together and I notice how cluttered it is. My eyes dance from a gathering of books on the piano, no....three gatherings of books. Two on the covered keyboard, one on the bench... The collection of assorted sunscreens, bought for numerous trips and then promptly forgotten that perch at the top of the same piano. (It's an upright.) The numerous hats that lay helter skelter atop the same piano, their adornments covered with a thin layer of dust. Cameras, knick knacks, nail polish...
All these details are part of my normal scene. My normal living room. But I do notice them, I do inwardly lament on my lack of drive to straighten, clean, dust, put away, donate, throw away...and sometimes I feel anger, and sometimes it's about depression and sometimes it's just boredom, or shame. Panic at the thought of a visitor... Tons a' emotions in that room. My room, my emotions.
I lay odd that you all notice more than you realize about your surroundings. Your everyday surroundings. If you keep a clean and neat house, you take pride in that fact. You may almost absent-mindedly wipe up spills, straighten books, but it all says something about you. And you notice, it brings a satisfaction that the house is ready for company at a moment's notice. Pride, peace, contentment...
I do think that is the key, to connect the description to what it says about the person living there. Or visiting.
Maybe the hardest thing is to accept that the ordinary, the nothing-special about a place, reveals more than the special or extrordinary.
Hellie - As for historical accuracy... I have no problem with the more modern sensibility being in a historical. I see historicals as being their own "paranormal" universe, to be honest. I mean, the characters bath a lot and usually smell good. We want the men to care about women, to be opposed to violence against them. We want them to have happy marriages, built on equal respect. But most of the society marriages then would have been strictly for monetary gain or for title. So to have a girl who's feisty and thinks for herself, a guy who cares for what she thinks and listens to her opinions.... well, it all kind of seems fantasy to me.
That's not to say I don't like it.
Now, if you mean that people disregard the social strictures, that's where I get upset. I think the most important part of the "world" we've created for the historical is the social confines they lived in. The forced marriage, the role of society in a relationship, the importance of reputation.
*Rant over*
I didn't start the skimming stuff! *elbows Melissa*
I do notice when my house is cluttered, though I seem to tolerate it much longer than I should. Last week I got rid of five garbage bags of old clothes and toys. The bags had been lurking in my dining room for lack of a better holding area. Once they disappeared, I felt a huge weight lift. Now I can look in my dining room and smile.
Until I notice the stacks of paper and mail on the little table. Then I leave the room quickly.
Did someone say cookies?
They're not what you think, Marn. Step away from the tray.
Until I notice the stacks of paper and mail on the little table. Then I leave the room quickly.
I agree with this strategy. For company, I make sure they have a place to sit their ass, set their drink, and that the floor is vacuumed. They can just ignore the rest of the clutter like I do. I'm a writer, of course I have papers everywhere.
Marn, I don't mean the women shouldn't be fiesty. I'm pretty sure Mary Wollstonecraft was not a quiet woman. Just a guess. And right now I'm in the midst of reading The Pillars of the Earth, the author seems to have a better grasp on the violence and lack of sensitivity where women are concerned--in fact, one of the main characters, Tom, is so realistic that I could club him with a shovel. But in its own perverse way, I do enjoy the "realism".
But I can't stand the lack of chaperones, debutantes sneaking into bedrooms to practice their wiles, things like that. BUT I also know it's because I don't identify with those kinds of characters and don't want to read about them. I prefer a heroine who has more character growth, someone who learns to take control of her power. Heroines who are fiesty and confident don't typically have much of a character arc that I can see.
Chance - So much depends on the POV and whether those things are important to the character. I love authors who create characters that are observant.
I think something I'm taking away from today is that POV has a real place in setting and movement in a scene. Or it should anyway. That's something I really want to play with shortly.
Melissa - What would I notice first? I need some point of reference. Like if I were bringing someone to my house, I’d notice the mess first and excuse it. I guess that would be a form of description! Or if I’d been away for some time, I’d see things differently, maybe nostalgic. Or, even returning from short trips, I’d notice what was out of place first, like the grass needing to be cut or the door handle falling off the door (need to fix that).
Wow, that makes complete sense. Things would look different at different times. For example, my heroine is forced to have sex with her benefactor. It's rape, but she's not sure as he pays her for it and she's a prostitute. But she feels totally violated, like she's not a person afterward. And it's in her house, her bedroom. I would imagine her bedroom would look different to her after something like that. More like a crime scene than a place of refuge.
Janga - I love you for stuff like this. I’m never going to write spare, unadorned prose. Some of you may never write lush, embellished prose. I think there’s an audience for both styles.
I think we all appreciate different things. And we all appreciate when a write does the things we like in a fabulous way. I think what you've said a reminder that we've all got our own voices we need to be true to, even as we're trying to be the best voices we can be.
Bo'sun - The problem I have is using descriptions to show things about the characters. Be it how a person looks or the first time in a new room, what I choose to describe tells the reader a ton of information about the characters. Or it should. What my heroine notices says a lot about her. How I describe the hero’s living room says a lot about him.
In other words, nothing is ever simple, is it?
*** I know I'm using lots of italics today but, honestly, you guys are saying so much that's speaking to me about this. I can't help quoting your brilliance. ***
I think that the idea that it's our CHOICE about what we show that tells about our characters is a great revelation for me. I need to be in my characters head and really hone in on what it is that he/she is noticing and then express that to my reader in a way that is going to tell them about my character. That is a really complex thing.
And there are people in the world who think writing is easy.... *eye roll*
I admit to skimming. Any scene that isn't moving the plot forward, I skim. Sadly, a lot of times sex scenes don't move plot. Therefore, they get the skim.
*waves to Aunty Cindy* Hi!!!
I try to make the setting another character in the story. In my books, the setting is an essential ingredient so I like to give it ‘equal time,’ filtered through the perceptions of my hero and heroine, of course.
Another character, huh? What an interesting way to see it. I love that.
Marnee - I definately think the character would view her bedroom as different after something like that happened in it.
My feelings about my bedroom and my bed underwent a real shift after my sudden cardiac death. For months I had a hard time going to bed. I wasn't 'awake' for any of the trauma, but the awareness that paramedics had been there...that I'd been on the floor, right there, while they shocked my heart back to rhythm...all of that resonated in my awareness of my bedroom for a long time. (And it still weighs heavily on my husband's mind, since he was there, awake, aware and taking part.)
Events trigger all sorts of connections that we didn't think of before hand. I look at my front room now and calculate how EMTs would manuever through the stuff. I make sure there is a path now...
As you age, you become aware of all the sharp corners, the rugs that can slip, the potential places for mishaps...where the phone is, could you reach it if needed?
If you can shift to think about your character and her awareness after the event, you won't find it hard to incorporate details and layer in all sorts of necessary setting stuff into your MS. From refecting how she used to feel about her bedroom to how she feels afterward...
Chance - I do think that is the key, to connect the description to what it says about the person living there. Or visiting
I think the key to writing these characters is connecting the description to what it says about them.
I'm an obsessive tidier. It's a personality flaw. If I were a character, I'd probably tidy when I'm feeling out of sorts. I clean up when I'm feeling frustrated. I clean up when I need to burn off energy. I clean up when my kids are making me so stressed I need a break. (No one can hang on me when I'm moving around tidying.)
I clean up when I argue with my husband. Luckily, that's not the only time I clean up as we don't argue a lot and if I had to wait for an argument for a clean house, we'd be living in filth.
But I wonder, if someone was writing me, if they might add in my little tidying while I was uncomfortable. Maybe they'd see how that's how I control my environment when I feel out of control.
How very interesting, with so much potential for use in my MS....
I am so wordy today! ;-)
Hellie - But I can’t stand the lack of chaperones, debutantes sneaking into bedrooms to practice their wiles, things like that.
This stuff frustrates me too. And I prefer the character growth kind too. :)
Marn - This book is darker and edgier, isn't it? Wow. Yes, that is am amazing opportunity to show a shift in your heroine. There is a version of her before the incident and a different version after. Showing that through her room would be a great way to go about it.
Your comment about tidying reminds me of how Lisa Kleypas gave the heroine of Mine Til Midnight (forgot her name!) this habit of tapping her foot when she's stressed or trying to work out a problem. And the hero always notices and manages to make her stop tapping. Usually by taking the worry off her hands, or working with her to solve the problem.
In one of my early scenes where the H/H are facing off, he walks in circles around her. His goal is to throw her off balance, and it works. But I've no idea if I wrote it in a way that made sense. Not long ago I was trying to write the description of a character wringing her hands. I couldn't come up with any original way to describe it.
Chance - it's cool; I'm wordy today too. :) Something in the stars?
I think you're right about all the bedroom stuff. And the rugs, potential mishap stuff. You're definitely better at this description stuff than I am. :)
Wringing the hands is a tough one! So is the idea of people sitting kitty corner at a table. I want two characters to not be sitting next to each other, or across from each other. But know no other way than to say kitty corner! And where the hell did that phrase come from!?
Now, my character Emily has the habit of out of conrol cursing when she's having good sex. Total foul and vulgar and loud... Her way of distancing from her partner and being in her body, accepting the passion in herself. He eventually figures out the way to bring her back is to take his time. Until she finally cries out his name...
But I like the hero walking circles around his heroine to keep her from tapping her toes. If she wanted to keep him in her sights, she has to keep moving which stops the toe tapping...nicely done!
Sorry, the toe tapping was Kleypas. The walking in circles was me. LOL! And she tells him to stop walking in circles because he's making it harder to kick him in the shin. My heroine has a bit of a temper issue.
See, where I come from, we call that "catty corner." And I have no idea where either term comes from. Could they be sitting at opposite corners?
Bo'sun - yep, this book is a little edgy. I liked the idea of it, though. Lots of books right now are about heroines who are courtesans or mistresses and then end up as the hero's mistress. But my heroine is the villain's mistress. It's taken all kinds of dark turns, especially because my villain is a real SOB. :)
I like the walking circles too. :) That would throw a person off balance.
Chance - We say catty corner too, but I don't know where that came from either. LOL! And foul language during sex as a character trait... that's an interesting one. :)
So, catty corner/kitty corner...how else would one describe it?
Maybe I should stick to round tables? ;-)
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-kit1.htm
Maybe on an angle?
Man, and it's not even catty. LOL!! Stinkin' Western PA vocab....
Hel! That was hilarious. She sat catawampus from him! I love it! The nuances of language is fascinating. But it gave me an idea. She sat diagonally from him. Still not elegant but it's something to work with!
Synonyms: askew, aslant, cater-corner, catty-corner, cornerwise, crosswise, kitty-corner, obliquely, on a slant, on the bias, slantingways, slantways, slantwise, slaunchways
cater-corner, catty-corner, cornerwise, diagonally, kitty-corner, sidelong
(I think I'd just go with kitty corner or catty corner. What's your problem with that word?)
Not really a problem, I just wish is sounded a bit more...appropriate to the time and place. I'm no purist, lord love a duck, but I'd love to find a word more slanted toward pirateese.
Diagonally sounds good. Slantwise is kind of fun too....
Jeezy creezy -- I wrote a nice long comment and Capt Cha kicked me in the ass. Grr.
Anyway, to recap. . .really great discussion about emotions and POV and how it impacts the details a character focuses on.
And Marn, I love your description of historical romance being a type of paranormal world. I start to foam at the mouth when the heroines don't follow the rules -- not necessarily of Society -- but of the historical romance world.
And I said a whole bunch of other brilliant stuff that I can't remember. LOL
Hmm, maybe a pirate would use the word "catercornered"--since it's more "french like", or find the french word for diagonally. Pirates would speak more than one language, wouldn't they?
Yeah, pirates speak lots o' languages. Kitty corner just sounds so country-western to me! I have no idea why! I like slantwise... Maybe I could use a compass point variation... He sat to the north, she sat northwest of him...
Don't really matter, just one of those things that seems to me...there should be an elegant way to state this position without bringing cats into it! LOL!
PS, great conversation guys. :) I appreciate all your thoughts. I hope it helped you guys as much as it helped me.
Donna - I think that's just how "I" view historical romance fiction. I wish I were more involved with the historical details--that I knew as much about it as Hellie. I'm just hoping she's going to be good enough to read my MS when the time comes and help me out without thinking I'm a giant moron. :)
LOL about the compass. And you're right; nothing sounds elegant when you reference an animal that sh!ts in a box.
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