Sunday, August 2, 2009
And the winner is...
Or in other words, to contest, or not to cotest. 
Contests can be awesome ways to get feedback, encouragement, or get your writing in front of agents and editors. At the same time, they can be horricially discouraging. When you get contest feedack, you have to figure out a way to sort out the helpful comments from the snarky ones.
Unfortunately, it's the snarky comments that stay with us, aren't they?
In the most recent contest I entered, I had two judges who offered constructive, encouraging feedback, and one judge who clearly, obviously couldn't stand my writing. Couldn't come up with a nice word to stay, but found plenty of things to gripe about. Yeah, thanks bitch. That helped.
So what's the best way to play the contest game? Last week were talking some about Golden Heart, and the fact that while it's prestigious, it's really just a crap shoot. There's no feedback, and more specifically, there's no criteria.
What do the judges base their opinion on? What are they looking for? What are they ranking or comparing? I think knowing what the judges are looking for, and what they're ranking, makes a huge difference in deciding which contests to enter, and more imporantly, what to enter.
I've been studying at score sheets recently -- looking at which scoring systems in which my entry is best going to shine....and which give me the best chance of hitting that coveted final round and landing in front of the agent or editor final round judge.
One of the interesting things I've been seeing is separate score sheets for the different categories. Score sheets with an extra section for the inspirational aspects, or the suspense aspects, or the paranormal aspects, etc. Another cool trend is score sheets that ask for specific comments, rather than general ones at the end. The Space Coast RWA contest, for instance, not only asks for a 1-5 rating on whether or not the hook drew you in, but then asks for comments on why or why not.
The really fun part of that score sheet? The last question is, If you were judging this for Golden Heart, what score would you give it, 1-9? Awesome, as the results come back on November 1st and the Golden Heart deadline is Nov. 15th.
The San Francisco RWA contest's score sheets asks about research. Is it interesting, necessary, and inserted non-intrusively. Great question. The Rose City RWA contest score sheets asks if each character has their own distinctive voice.
All this to say, each contest is looking for different things, and judges are bound by the ranking they have to give to these specific things. If we can choose contests with score sheets we best match up to, and pimp our entry a bit to really match up (check out that link on pimping your contest entry - great info and tips!), we have the best opportunity to get in front of that final round judge.
And of coure, if you haven't seen it, Stephie Smith has a phenomonal chart with entry, link, and judge info for every upcoming romance contest.
So which contests are you looking at? Like the contest circuit or hate it? Any ridiculous comments from judges you want to share? What do you look for in score sheets when picking contests? Any other tips for putting your best manuscript foot forward?
Contests can be awesome ways to get feedback, encouragement, or get your writing in front of agents and editors. At the same time, they can be horricially discouraging. When you get contest feedack, you have to figure out a way to sort out the helpful comments from the snarky ones.
Unfortunately, it's the snarky comments that stay with us, aren't they?
In the most recent contest I entered, I had two judges who offered constructive, encouraging feedback, and one judge who clearly, obviously couldn't stand my writing. Couldn't come up with a nice word to stay, but found plenty of things to gripe about. Yeah, thanks bitch. That helped.
So what's the best way to play the contest game? Last week were talking some about Golden Heart, and the fact that while it's prestigious, it's really just a crap shoot. There's no feedback, and more specifically, there's no criteria.
What do the judges base their opinion on? What are they looking for? What are they ranking or comparing? I think knowing what the judges are looking for, and what they're ranking, makes a huge difference in deciding which contests to enter, and more imporantly, what to enter.
I've been studying at score sheets recently -- looking at which scoring systems in which my entry is best going to shine....and which give me the best chance of hitting that coveted final round and landing in front of the agent or editor final round judge.
One of the interesting things I've been seeing is separate score sheets for the different categories. Score sheets with an extra section for the inspirational aspects, or the suspense aspects, or the paranormal aspects, etc. Another cool trend is score sheets that ask for specific comments, rather than general ones at the end. The Space Coast RWA contest, for instance, not only asks for a 1-5 rating on whether or not the hook drew you in, but then asks for comments on why or why not.
The really fun part of that score sheet? The last question is, If you were judging this for Golden Heart, what score would you give it, 1-9? Awesome, as the results come back on November 1st and the Golden Heart deadline is Nov. 15th.
The San Francisco RWA contest's score sheets asks about research. Is it interesting, necessary, and inserted non-intrusively. Great question. The Rose City RWA contest score sheets asks if each character has their own distinctive voice.
All this to say, each contest is looking for different things, and judges are bound by the ranking they have to give to these specific things. If we can choose contests with score sheets we best match up to, and pimp our entry a bit to really match up (check out that link on pimping your contest entry - great info and tips!), we have the best opportunity to get in front of that final round judge.
And of coure, if you haven't seen it, Stephie Smith has a phenomonal chart with entry, link, and judge info for every upcoming romance contest.
So which contests are you looking at? Like the contest circuit or hate it? Any ridiculous comments from judges you want to share? What do you look for in score sheets when picking contests? Any other tips for putting your best manuscript foot forward?
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42 comments:
Food for thought, Hal! I've had some really sucky experiences wit' contests. I know some a' the stuff I entered 'ad ta do wit' not bein' ready. But after a number a' snarky comments, I come ta the conclusion that me difficulty comes from not 'aving clear genre entrees.
Time and time a'gin, I get comments 'bout me entries that lead me ta believe the judges jus' don't know what ta do wit' me stuff. It be discouragin'...ta say the least.
But I like the links ya put up. I want ta check 'em out... But I gots ta 'ave a book that be easy ta' peg in one a' the entry genres afore I enter another contest. That be what I come ta as a conclusion.
Ta be honest, I never thought a' lookin' at score sheets afore time.
Take the snarky comments for what they are worth.
Nothing.
If a contest judge can't have cooth, then they really don't need to be judging.
I've only entered a few. My very first contest was the Golden Claddagh in 2007. I didn't do well at all, but my ms was far from ready. I'd only been writing for few months too. But the feedback was tremendous and encouraging. In 2008 I entered four or five. My manuscript was a finalists in two. Blew the polish off my toes let me tell you. Recently, I entered that same manuscript, only because I made changes, in the Golden Claddagh. I wanted redemption. I wanted that dang pin. I was flabbergasted when I received my scores. Two of them were above the 96%, the third was below 64%. Doesn't seem quite fair, does it? I skimmed through the low ball comments but I didn't take it personally. Well I did but I didn't let it sit on my shoulders. The cool thing, the GC and many contests offer a discrepancy judge in situations like this. After contacting the coordinator, I got my fourth judge who ended up giving me my highest score.
So, I look for many things in a contest. How many first round judges, the types of judges, discrepancy judges, and the final judges. Price and e-mailing entries are also taken into consideration. I haven't decided if I'll enter GH. I've never done it and it scares me to death. But you've given me some food for thought.
If judges don't know you or your work, why on earth would they want to write snarky comments?
I used to enter a weekly drabble contest on the EJ/JQ BB. Readers would vote for the best entry and I was often surprised by the winning story. Even though I usually lost, at least when I started, the comments from readers were always positive and encouraging.
If it had been a contest with prizes rather than a fun competition, a few critical comments, indicating where it didn't work or defects in style, or statements that the ideas lacked originality etc would have been much more valuable and given a handle on ways for improvement.
Analysis of style and writing technique should be fairly objective with consistency between judges. But the big question of whether they enjoyed reading it is much more subjective so that wide differences in judges comments would be expected. This issue is the one that will sell books and is of overriding importance.
I guess the snarky comments would indicate a lack of interest and enjoyment. You can't expect everyone to like your writing, so as long as more than half the judges like it, then your doing OK IMO.
I believe that some of the peer review comments of Einstein's early papers on relativity were pretty negative. So you are in good company Hal!
Morning all!
Great blog Hal! I've only entered a few contests. The NJ contest last year, the Golden Heart, and the Fool for Love contest this year. I took third in the two smaller contests; didn't do so well in the GH last year. Though I got some really good scores there, and a few really bad ones. Not any real middle of the road scores. I think it was a few 8-9s and a couple 3-5s. Oh well. Happens.
A final judge in the NJ contest last year told me that I should get a new plot. Um, thanks. Very helpful.
I was considering the Query contest out there right now. I think it's East Valley? I need to look. But it's 5 bucks and the final judges are Kevan Lyon and Jill Marsal.
For the most part, I think it's good if they give feedback. I think a good scoresheet is very important. And trained or published first round judges is helpful too, preferably published. It's good to hear thoughts from folks who are already at the published phase.
God, contests. I was such a contest whore, and once my book is pub'd I probably will be again! LOL
At first, I entered Hidden Beauty (which will have a new title soon) in contests to get feedback. I needed feedback because I was writing something so far out of my comfort zone and something that didn't exactly feel like a romance to me so any nitpicks, love, hate, commentary I was sure would help. For the most part it did help me hone my craft and streamline the story.
And then something funny happened with entering that book in contests. I was getting really good scores, and authors were actually putting their names at the bottom of my scoresheets (that NEVER happened when I entered my para's in contests). So I had a feeling I was on the right track. Mind you, that's not to say all more scores were amazing. A good many of the people reading my book hated it, hated it so much they would write scathing things on the scoresheets. I ignored the haters, because really, they just should have said to their coordinators that they couldn't fairly judge the entry.
One thing that was helpful for me, was entering contests where a synopsis was required. I am never really that great at writing one before the finish of the book, but I did do some good BSing and one very helpful thing for me was getting feedback on what did and didn't work in the plot for the readers/judges.
I always entered contests that were 25 pages or more. Loved the 50 page ones. The Rose, IGO, the Pen, and Orange Rose county (I actually entered my second book in that, not Hidden Beauty and had to pull it because I signed a contract before their deadline came up).
Final round judges didn't do me much good in the end though. One of the many contests I finaled in got me a full request. And the opportunity to talk to the editor who said some really great things to boost my confidence in the story.
No matter what, though, they are all a crap shot. You will always get people who love your work, and those who hate it. Sometimes you tip the scale of love and final, sometimes you go the opposite way.
Wow, I'll stop now, I am writing a novel in here.
PS, Tiff, how's Asbury's book coming?
And I should really read my diatribe back to myself. I hope you can make sense of my engrish in some spots. Sigh... My only excuse is the kids were talking to me about brekky.
Tiff, I think everything you just said makes sense though. I think that even the negative stuff can be helpful. In the NJ contest, I felt like the judge who told me to find a new plot didn't like the fact that my historical had paranormal elements. But that doesn't mean that she might not have been right that I used a pretty cliched plot device or that maybe my hero was a little too beta for the story. (Even though this author was published and is pretty much known for her beta heroes.)
Marn, you and I both know that you can't please EVERYONE with your stories. And yes, you have to know what advice to take with a grain of salt. :) One thing I do know is there was usually at least one thing helpful in the negative commentary I received. Sometimes not, but sometimes, if I read between the lines, I'd find something a smidgen helpful.
Absolutely ditto. :)
Asbury's book is 53K and ticking forward like the energizer bunny, or is that Asbury who's going like the engergizer bunny? :D
That's great! Go Asbury go!
2nd -- genre is hard in contests, because usually there isn't a clear definition of each sub-genre, and so each judge goes in with their own expectations. Not to mention, you often can't judge in the sub-genre you write, which makes it so much harder. Some contests have a straight erotica genre that is usually much more wide open (and less concerned with the "rules" of traditional romance). Have you tried sticking yours there?
Q - Even Einstein got snarky comments? I love it! Though I must say, I'd rather wade through contest judge comments than peer reviewer comments any day. The last paper I had to have peer-reviewed, one of the reviewers guessed who we were (the authors), and hated us, so therefore ripped the whole thing to shreds. I think I might have cried. I'd worked for years on that project.
But I agree *constructively* critical comments can be so helpful. And you're right - every contest asks for ranking on voice, style, and if they'd keep reading. Those things are horribly subjective. Can't please everyone, right?
Renee -- how funny! Golden Claddah is the contest I was so frustrated with. I had the same problem - super high scores from two judges, hideously low score from another. It's so frustrating!
I totally agree that watching how they score is important. I much prefer contests with 3 first round judges as to two -- and definitely ones that handle discrepancies in scoring.
I feel sort of bad because in a contest I judged this summer, they sent me a last-minute entry that I'm sure was a discrepancy thing. But I just had so many problems with it I had to give it only an okay sore (I think it was somewhere between 85% and 90%). It probably kicked her out of the finalist round, but I felt like I still had to be objective, you know?
Marn -- that comment about you having a beta hero still makes me laugh (but then again, I'm not a fan of hers *g*). I think the query contest is a good one to try out. I was sort of debating that one too. We had an editor at school critique query letters, but analyzed everything but the hook. I found that sort of odd, as the hook is the most important part, but what can you do? She did say my story paragraphs had too much backstory -- though I don't know what to do about that either. Grr. So that contest might be good for me to get some better feedback.
And I agree - I like having published or PRO judges for that first round. I think it all comes off a bit more professional.
Tiff - I think some books, especially darker books, are definitely the love it or hate it variety. The book I'm working on now is quite dark, and I'm required to have a specific critique group for school - two adored it and wanted to keep critiquing it even after they graduated; one refused to read another page and bitched to professors until she got moved to another group. *eye roll*
I think contests that require a synopsis are helpful. It is good to know what works and what doesn't. At the same time, at least for me, those are always the most frustrating or unhelpful comments. I had one contest judge just bitch about how she wanted an explanation on this, and on that, and blah blah blah, all things I thought were minor plot points, or about secondary characters. Yet other judges thought the synopsis was clear and covered the whole plot.
I didn't realize any contest besides Golden Heart asked for 50 pages. I'll definitely have to look into those! Thanks *g*
That is a very twisted picture for this blog. LOL!
I entered one contest way back when I first started simply to see if I was wasting my time. Though a couple judges suggested my hero sounded gay *rolls eyes* they all said I had potential and that's what I wanted to hear. So I kept going.
The only reason I'd enter the GH is if a) I know my book is finished, b) polished to within an inch of it's life, and c) thought I could actually final. It's more to have something to add to the resume, ya know?
But the idea that the GH gives me a deadline helps a bit too. Sort of. Though nothing is helping right now.
Unfortunately, there are some seriously bitter writers out there judging contests. Writers who think they know everything, have prejudices against certain kinds of stories, or just are never happy with anything. It's a bummer, but it's a reality.
Ter - the looming deadline of GH is a good motivator, isn't it? That's what got me finished up last year, though apparently it's not helping in the slightest this year *g*
And yeah, there are some bitter, bitter judges you there. Yikes. That's awesome that you got encouraging feedback at the beginning - we all need that!
I've still yet to finish an entire manuscript so I have no words to the wise about contests. But I'm extremely jaded and tend to just take everything with a grain of salt. So, with the looming deadline of the GH (which I don't think mine is going to qualify within the guidelines of Romance) I need to just get writing and stop goofing off all the time.
Great blog Hal!
Hal - Aye, as I said, come ta the conclusion that me and contests ain't on the same page until I finish a MS that fits easily inta one particular genre. Since I write paranormal/adventure/mildy erotica/time travel/scifi...
Hee, hee.
I 'ope Jane made it ta the blog. She does well at contests. If'n the one she entered with two great scroes and once stinker 'ad a mediation judge... That would a' been interestin'!
wow Chance - that's a mouthful! No wonder it's hard to classify!
Sin -- is yours closer to urban fantasy than romance? The damn categories drive me nuts. I had my query letter critiqued by an editor, and she threw a big fit that at the beginning, I said it was a romantic thriller, but at the end, I said it was a "dark political thriller with romantic elements," and that I had to make up my mind. My reaction: what the hell is the difference?
And I can't talk about writing at the moment. I haven't written a word since mid-June. I gotta get myself un-stuck soon, but it's looking less and less likely :)
I'm not sure how Sadie and Kiki's series will classify in the end. It's more mystery with romantic and paranormal elements than anything else. No one gets a HFN or HEA at the end of each book, so therefore, I'm unsure. Cin's story on the other hand is definitely urban fantasy. I know exactly who I want to pick up that series and it would be a dream fulfilled. LOL
Oh yay, we're sailing again.
Categories do require the splitting of hairs. And even when you think you've narrowed it down, someone will say you belong in something else. It's all just to make us even crazier than we are. LOL!
I've only entered one contest. I probably won't enter another, but the feedback I got from the one was invaluable. I didn't final, but I did tie for fifth in a large field. My scores were split into two groups. TLWH got a 97 from one judge and a 96 from another. Their comments were great for my ego. One said even if she line-edited, she couldn't find anything to improve; the other told me not to waste my time with contests but to start querying.
Another judge gave me an 82 but was generous with praise. She just thought the book was not a single-title but a sweet category. Ironically, the judge who gave me the lowest score (77) was the most helpful. She wrote extensive, detailed comments all through my entry. The negative comments stung: she thought a plot point was contrived, she thought one scene was confusing, and she thought the hero's words in one scene were out of character. But she balanced those comments with praise for my characters, including secondaries, my pacing, and my voice. She also said she expected to see my book on shelves within two years. I even felt better about the score when I checked the grand tally sheet and saw that my 77 was the highest score she gave. :)
The biggest boost to my confidence was that all four judges commented favorably on my dialogue and sexueal tension, both areas about which I had concerns.
TMI, I know, but just evaluating the experience energizes me. I'm ready to return to revisions.
BTW - I'm glad that your one contest experience was so positive. And I know that one judge was right about seeing your book on the shelves. Great encouragement!
Janga - Return to revisions? As I said the other day, don't make me come down there. LOL!
Terri, I've been writing--just on Book 2. It's more fun than revisions, which require more intense concentration. This is the last week before school starts, and the house is pretty much wall-to-wall grands--great for hugs and laughter but death to concentration. LOL! Next week will be quieter.
Wow, they go back early down there. My kiddo doesn't even come back until the 29th and starts school on the 8th. No idea what I'm going to do with her that week before school starts. Hmmmm...
Janga, isn't it funny how sometimes the lowest scoring judges can be the most helpful? I've definitely had that experience. And it's always a good feeling when judges can point out the things you do well.
And good luck on those revisions, and the second book!
See, I got one snarky comment from a judge about my query letter (This contest wanted a query.) Judge said about my statement that I'd been working on my writing for several years... "Doesn't show." Or something to that effect.
Hiss!
Went on to make one snarky comment after another. I do have to say there was some therapy in reading them through and then replying in big sloppy handwriting next to her comments...nasty word replies...
Well, made me feel better!
What I really hate is when you submit 10 pages or whatever limit they set and then the judge gets all hissy about not understanding some plot point. Well, duh! What part of only ten pages do they not understand? Judge what you have, not what you don't have!
Chance - in the Seeker's blog about pimping contest entries, they talk about that very problem. They actually suggest removing hints and scenes that deal with the future plot, to avoid that very confusion. It's a bold idea, but can help with that complaint. Definitely worth looking into, at least.
I don't see the point in changing the entry just for the contest. Why would you change your story or MS to suit the judges? The point is to enter what you have and be judged on it. If you're changing things to make contest judges happy, then you're sort of writing for the wrong reason, don't ya think?
And this reminds me of something Deb Werksmen, editor for Sourcebooks, says. She's not interested in anything having to do with contests. She says what she's looking for and what contests are looking for is so significantly different that finaling in a contest has no weight with her at all.
See, this is what I heard also, Terrio. Ya either write ta find a publisher, or ya write ta win contests. If ya have ta 'pimp' yer entry for the contests, don't ya lose the integrity a' what yer writin'?
IMHO, 'course.
Okay, so there's an early scene in my novel, where two characters are shopping in New Orleans for a painting of a ballet dancer. It's a super important scene for the overall plot, but when looking at the first 30 pages, it *appears* as if it does nothing to advance the plot, and that fact is going to make me lose points in a judged contest. So before I submit to a contest, I pull that scene out, so that I can get to the stuff the judges are looking for, such as the main meeting of the h/h, and to give them more time together, so that the sexual tension come across.
Does that make sense?
I personally don't feel like I'm losing any integrity as a writer by pulling out that scene. But that's just my opinion.
There's a great article posted at Romance University today that addresses some of these issues from one writer's experience (Amy Atwell, a Golden Heart finalist). It's not about contests, but it is I think connected to this discussion. I read it twice and bookmarked it.
http://romanceuniversity.org/2009/08/03/adjusting-courses/
I'm not sure I'd bring integrity into it, but the purpose of contests should be to find the best stories out there. With fresh voices and interesting plots and well developed characters. If they are going to base their judgements on partials of the whole, then they should account for that.
To me, if you could pull that scene out of the book and not change a thing in the whole, then do it. But if you need that scene for the story in its entirety, I don't think it does you any good to pull it out to win points in a contest.
I'm basically implying that's it's more messed up that judges force writers to make these changes instead of being smart enough to realize that you are judging only a portion of something and making allowances for that.
I can actually see pullin' a scene, ya still keep ta the integrity a' the overall story. Ya jus' start it a bit later fer the judges.
It's the tinkerin' that bugs me. A line here, a line there...and afore ya know it, ya 'ave a short story, not a scene from a completed MS.
We be tol' ta keep tension on every page...draw the reader inta wantin' ta read all the story, then the judges ding me fer not tellin' or explainin' everythin'?
I entered a contest where all they wanted was the first intimate scene... and I had a judge who bitched about 'where was the love?' Uh....FIRST sex scene... Love takes time ta develop 'tween me characters. She's a sexual witch, she need sex... It left me confused as ta what they really wanted and I came ta the conclusion that what I write don't fit what they be lookin' fer.
"I’m basically implying that’s it’s more messed up that judges force writers to make these changes instead of being smart enough to realize that you are judging only a portion of something and making allowances for that."
Aye! Terrio, that be my point! Drives me batty!
Thanks for that link Janga - what a wonderful article!
I agree Ter - there should be more allowances for the fact that this is a piece of a longer work of fiction. Then this whole conversation would be moot :)
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