When Two Doesn't Seem to Be Enough...
I have a confession to make.
I’ve never read a romance novel that included sex scenes with more than two partners.
I know there’s a trend of ménage etc books out there, spreading into the realm of 4 or more sexual participants. I suspect that there could be erotic romance or erotica that includes entire legions of men and women, a virtual football team cast of characters. I just haven’t picked them up
I’ve read a few love triangle stories, stories in which the heroine chooses between two very different and equally exciting men. But when the heroine is spending “quality” time with each man, she keeps them separated.
I’m not sure why I’m not really interested. Ok, scratch that, I’m interested in the trend, I just haven't been interested in reading them for pleasure. I think I'll eventually pick one up, just to see how the limbs go where and how they cram all those people into one scene. Kind of a “How DID they do that” sort of thing.
But I’m hesitant. One of the things I like most about one-on-one romance is the character arcs are fully developed. When an author can focus on only two main characters, logistically there is more room to build believable characters. I worry that when too many characters are involved, an author would have to rely heavily on stereotypes to pull the story along and I get bored with that.
Also, I usually like alpha males and I wonder how the ordinary alpha male I like would deal with the object of his infatuation being handled by someone else. They’re not usually the sharing types.
But mostly, I worry that the emotional angst that I love so much in romance would be lacking.
It’s probably not helping that right now I only buy books that I’m pretty sure I’ll love. I don’t have a lot of time to read things I don’t think I’ll like. And I don’t get a lot of time just to experiment with genres either. Sort of tried and true works for me now. Maybe in the future I’ll be able to branch out and then I'll devour a whole bookcase full of them. Who knows?
Maybe you guys can enlighten me. Am I missing something?
So, what do you guys think about this “the more, the merrier” trend? Have you written a story with multiple participant sex scenes? If you haven’t, would you? If not, why not? If so, why did it appeal to you? If you have read a ménage or more story, do you feel that anything was lacking in the emotional arena as a result of the additional characters or did you think it made it more intense?
Books by the Crew
52 comments:
OK. My name is 2nd Chance and I read polyamory books. I write polyamory stories.
Why? Well, the more the merrier? No, I know that doesn't help. Why...well... Firstly, I like sex and I like to think that sex, as long as there is pleasure, can include infinite combinations. I like the reality of it, even if I haven't been that adventurous in my real life.
Secondly, I also think sex/love is powerful. That love can embrace more than two people. That three or four or more can only increase the potential for not only pleasure but connection.
To the divine power of creation. Yup, I'm one a' those.
I've read some nice books on the subject, both fictional and nonfictional. Emma Holly does it nice...probably my favorite for it. Is it easy to write this stuff? No, but I enjoy the challenge. Did I feel as if Emma pulled up short on the emotional complications... No. Was it realistic? I've never tried the lifestyle, so I really don't know.
But doesn't most of the writing we do contain elements of idealism? In an ideal world, the more the merrier would be no more than a simple truth.
I'm feeling young this morning. I had one of 'those' cocktails last night and swear that Chance puts something unusual in them. Perhaps she's found a potion for eternal youth or perhaps not!
I don't find the concept of menage novels attractive. We evolved to be coupled in pairs and the accoutrements would be organised differently if it were otherwise. The chemistry is just all wrong.
I can see that it might work at wild parties where everything gets out of perspective and the alpha man overestimates his powers and lures two babes to his bed, but that's not serious romance.
No, I'm too old for these experiments. I leave this sort of thing to the seriously young. :D
I'm with Q. I'd probably put my back out. But a while ago there was an open submission for menage stories at an e-publisher, and I did start one (just like I wrote about shape-shifting cougars and cursed time-travelers---to put my writing back out as it were). I never finished, but it really was kind of fun. However, if I were to seriously write in that vein, I'd have to buy two Kens and a Barbie to figure out the logistics (as opposed to two Barbies and a Ken).
Lauren Dane has written some hot threesome books (not that I would know*looks around innocently*).
I've read ménage books, they don't appeal to me. No matter that they are hot, no matter how well written they are. You are right in that the character ARC just feels off and I don't get how alpha men can share their partners and have an HEA with another man in the picture, just doesn't feel real at all. Funny how I can suspend belief for paranormal stories, but I cannot do it for ménage.
Nope, the multiple partner configuration just doesn't work for me.
I confess, I've read some ebooks that feature ménage situations. And for some of them, you'd be absolutely right, Marnee, the depth of character simply isn't there and it seems to be more about how many Tab A's can be fit into various Slot B's.
But a few authors really take the time to carefully craft their characters and set up the "group" dynamic. And in those stories, the polyamory relationship serves to show us a lot about the individual characters involved. Lorelei James and Maya Banks both have written stories for Samhain that include these relationships and explore the emotional side of it as much as the physical side.
Are they my preference? No. I still like the idea of finding just one Prince Charming. But if it's well-written, I'll read most anything. Just don't tell my family, okay? :)
Menange books have no appeal for me as a reader, and I can't even imagine my writing one. One on one relationships have all the complications I can deal with.
No, but we've had my treatises about this before. I don't like two men in bed with me on the very real possiblity that they might be a little more into each than me. My ego cannot stand it. My self-esteem, because I'm a writer, generally hangs by a thread most days. I don't encourage it to shred completely by entertaining fantasies of threesomes.
And yes, it's FANTASY, but I'm with the alpha thing. I can be pretty alpha--and I tend to prefer alphas--and the whole "Oh, sure, I'll share" possibility is a joke on both our parts. Because if I seemed more into what the other guy was doing to me--his competitive streak would bubble to the top--and then they'd each kill each other or me. Whereas if another woman was introduced to the equation--perish the thought--I'd probably be left watc...you know it's too early in the morning for me to go here. *LOL* Let's just perish the thought. Seriously not my fantasy. I can't believe something where I can't believe a HEA outcome with it.
Morning girls (and guy!)
And thanks for giving me your takes....
Chance - I love your bohemian style, gal. I can see what you mean, that in a perfect utopia, there wouldn't be all the power dynamics of so many people and it really would be the more the merrier.
And you're right; we all have to have a little idealism to do what we do. I hadn't really thought of it extending the way you did, but I can see how you went there.
Q - an alpha overestimating his powers? Never!! LOL!
The very young maybe. I remember in college hearing about such situations and it always seemed to me that the drama magnified by how many people were involved. I mean, a straight 1+1 relationship had 2 times the drama. And then when more were added, there was the additional drama proportionally.
Janga - I'm with you here.... One on one relationships is enough for me to manage, in real life and on paper.
I'm kind of lukewarm on the menage. I don't generally seek them out in my pleasure reading, but I can dig the occasional one if I really like the author. Though I'll admit that I have a hard time sustaining my disbelief about a polyamorous HEA.
For anyone who's curious enough about the appeal to actually check one out, I would totally suggest one of Lacey Alexander's books (alter-ego of Toni Blake). Her stories are always primarily about the h/h and their relationship arc, but they often include a menage scene or two. And in my mind she is really, really good at showing why that experience would be sexually and emotionally fulfilling for someone. VOYEUR was the first book that really made me feel that a menage could be hot.
Mags - Why am I not surprised that you tried this out? LOL! I love it. :)
And I think you're right about the logistics. Ken and Barbie aren't even made anatomically to help with me. I never thought I was a visual gal until I started trying to figure where what would go. I think I need a map. LOL!!
Tiff - Ditto on the alphas. And I can suspend belief for paras too, but I think it's because the characters and their emotions feel real still, like they're real people. In polyamory relationships, I feel like the characters would have to "give up" something. I think every character (person) has the desire to be their loves one and only. I could see how maybe if it were just sex it wouldn't matter as much with the sharing, but if there's going to be a relationship, I feel like people want to be the "most important" thing. I am not sure how that instinct could be resolved satisfactorily.
Hi Chris! Thanks for stopping by and for your input. I think I'm agreeing with you right now....
Kels - Thanks for giving me some authors that do it well. I think I'll definitely need the recommends if I want to check it out. I would hate to make a foray into the genre, pick up the hazelnut scented version of the polyamory novel, and give up on the entire thing out of disgust.
I also think you hit on another reason why I think I like the one on one stuff. The whole idea of one Prince Charming has always been my goal too. Feels more familiar, probably.
And it's ok, dearie.... You fam won't find out from us. Mum's the word.... LOL!!
Hellie - LOL! You crack me up. End up watching... LOL!
But I think you bring up something really interesting about alpha heroines. I was just talking to Jessica Andersen (who's guest blogging with us next week-hooray!) about constructing the alpha heroine. If the market is enjoying stronger and stronger heroines, then they bring with them as much charisma as the male characters do. So it's just not how do alpha males share, but how do alpha females share....
Soooo complex, this whole thing. I think I need to check them out, just to see.... In the next months I think I'll have to and get back to all of you with my thoughts.
Lindsey - thanks for the recommend from you too! :) I haven't read Toni Blake yet, but I've heard so many good things. Maybe she'd be a good place for me to start.
Thanks!
Okay, I didn't see this topic coming. And that picture is cracking me up. How many of you stared long enough to figure out which feet went together? Just me? Fine.
I've never read a menage book, but I've read sex scene with multiples. I do own that Emma Holly Menage book, I should maybe read it some time. (Why do I buy these books and never read them?)
I guess I'm in the minority in that I think you could write a HEA with menage. Not saying it would be easy, but I think it can be done. And I agree that adding more to the equation adds more drama, but I also think it adds more angst and opportunities for character growth.
I don't necessarily think a character being an alpha automatically means they couldn't stand another to touch their mate. It's just a fact that you never know what will turn a person on and being a voyeur works for some people. (I think I have that Lacey book too. *sigh* I need to catalog this stuff.)
Now, all this said, I can't imagine me ever trying to write this. Though I think it would be interesting to try. I know our dear Dee Knight has written these scenes and I'm hoping she'll chime in with us today. Her work is always well done and well developed.
Kel - "it seems to be more about how many Tab A’s can be fit into various Slot B’s" - LMAO!!!
I've never read one either, mostly because I assumed you couldn't possibly have the emotional depth with more than 2 people. I'll have to check out some of these authors, cause if they can pull it off, it sounds hot *g*
I could dig the threesome. But I've always been a little too wild for my own good.
Dee writes some HAWT stuff. I hope she stops by.
Lisa has emailed me a couple of authors to read erotica wise, but I just haven't picked them up yet. I'm severely slacking in my reading lately.
Great blog Marn!
I'm with the majority for all the reasons previously stated. It would be hard for me to buy into a HEA with more than two involved. Not saying it can't or hasn't been done just that I would have a hard time suspending my belief.
I do like the exclusivity of the one on one HEA... no sharing, no doubts about being the #1 priority, nobody else out there to compete with... this whole aversion probably stems back to my childhood in a large family and not wanting to share or compete for affection.
As for writing, I can barely get the male #1 and female #1 to have a decent meaningful conversation. Throwing all that other stuff in there would really tax my brain.
"I could dig the threesome. But I’ve always been a little too wild for my own good."--*LOL* Sin is such a pirate.
And of course, Terri would believe she could turn a threesome into a HEA. *LOL* But only because most of us are on the other side. Terri refuses to be a lemming about anything. Plus she likes to write betas...you probably *could* have a threesome HEA with betas at the helm.
Ter - I had a hard time with the pic too. LOL!
And you didn't see this coming because it's me? Tsk tsk, you know better than to underestimate me now, I thought.... LOL!!
Leave it to you to love up on the thought of added drama and angst. I think this would be one thing that would be interesting to see.
"As for writing, I can barely get the male #1 and female #1 to have a decent meaningful conversation"--that's because Irish, you're trying to make the male dialogue authentic and therefore it is taxing. *LOL* My male-female meaningful conversation last night consisted of why *he* was better than Harry Potter. Which was actually very entertaining...but not something you'd put in a romance novel. *LOL* It's a fine line between romance and reality, isn't it?
Hal - I think you and I are in the same spot. I would hate to be disappointed or annoyed by it, but if it's well done, I bet it'd be hot too. LOL!!
Sin - Lis has some suggestions? Maybe I'll check in. But I've been kinda slacking with my reading too. :) And you are a pirate. "I could dig the threesome." LOL!
Hells - is he better than HP, then? LMAO!
Irish - "no sharing, no doubts about being the #1 priority, nobody else out there to compete with": This is I think one of the biggest challenges. If there were extra people around that a character would feel they had to compete with, I think it'd be hard to make a character feel satisfied at the end. Very good wording. :)
He was for me. ;) (Inside joke. Really. She'll laugh. Just wait.)
I am not just being contrary. You all are looking at it as character A loves both character B & C but B & C have no connection. That's not the same thing. That's just the love triangle. Obviously, to have the menage HEA, all characters would have to have connections and feelings and love.
Say what you want, but it is possible to love two people at the same time. At least I think so, though I'm not speaking from experience. If all three people love each other, then it can work. In fiction, that is, I'm not completely crazy.
Ter, I didn't think you were being contrary. I think you're right, maybe. I think it'd just be really hard and a really fine line to walk.
I'm not sure I'm coordinated enough to walk it, that's all.
I admit, the two guys one woman would be more difficult to make believable. And what woman wants to read about one man and two women? Bit of a catch 22 there.
It might be just a little jump from writing the triangle in that you take out the men being adversaries and make them partners of a sort. As I said, not sure I'd ever try it, but I still think it would be interesting to try sometime. (Writing, people. Writing it!)
I agree Ter. It is possible to love two people at once. It is very realistic to desire more than one person at a time as well. I think that's why I like to write the triangle. And no, that's not a sex position or at least one that I've tried. *g*
And I am a pirate. Tis why y'all love me.
Pirate.
Lis is quite the reading ho. Tap into her wonderful library suggestions. The woman reads stuff that's hotter than I can imagine.
If you don't mind a reader’s perspective, I would say I don't go for the ménage or multiple partner story lines. Romance is romance and erotica is erotica. I love romance and I find romance hard to establish or believable between multiple partners. I'm by no means a prude...love hot sex scenes but I expect emotional fulfillment as well. I appreciate fully developed characters that interact with each other on an emotional level. Anyone can put slot A into slot B.
Crew! Why do ya think it's all about slots and tabs? Sex be more than insertion.
(Though insertion isn't all that difficult. There is a huge market out there that sells accessories, btw! Swings, fer one thing.)
It ain't all about competition in a real polyamory relationship. It's about sharin' and intensfyin' the pleasure. 'Course there be conflict, I think that would make a wonderful book.
The problem wit' most a' the threesome books out there is it be done fer pure titillation. Not that there be anythin' wrong wit' this... ;)
Most a' the ones I read feature a strong alpha who swings both ways and isn't challenged by that entire idea. I've written a threesome with an alpha woman and two men who respect each other. She ain't willin' ta give up either a' them, they both fulfill aspects a' her that be different. Emotionally and physically. They learn ta work tagether in bed, ta make it all about 'er because that is what she wants. She loves 'em both. They go on ta make it work.
Love finds a way, crew.
It ain't about the slots and tabs!
They learn ta work tagether in bed, ta make it all about ‘er because that is what she wants.
I love you, m'dear, but this is clearly why this is a work of fiction. LOL! Though I do agree, the scene doesn't have to be about slots and tabs. Sex should involve every inch from head to toe, plenty of area for everyone. And it can still be about how the *inserting*, shall we say, is effecting the characters, just like in a twosome.
Aye, we write fiction. But...I know people who are makin' this work. I was talkin' ta one a few months ago and she says they would love ta see a real romance book out there that addresses the reality of the life... One that treats it as a romance, not purely an erotic situation.
Because she knows it be about the romance.
I be all 'lone taday... I may take me rum bottle and crawl up ta the crowsnest and pout... ;(
Terri, I agree with you - I think it could be interesting to see someone really look at how a menage HEA would work. I guess the reason I don't buy it in most books is because they tend to focus on the sex and gloss over more of the long-term emotional issues and jealousies I think would be involved in such a relationship. Which is fine - erotic romance is very much about fantasy. But I would enjoy seeing it addressed. Emma Holly did, to an extent, in MENAGE, but I find her perspective on it rather bleak.
Pirates do not pout. Come off those ropes and get back behind the bar.
You are not alone. (Unless you mean actually alone in real life, then you are alone.) There's room on this ship for all opinions and ideas and I've been agreeing with you, in case you haven't noticed. LOL!
Linds - Yes, exploring the emotional aspects would be the interesting part. I really need to get that Holly book off the shelf.
Did anyone see Vicky, Christina, Barcelona? There is a three way relationship with two women and a man and it's not about the sexual part. The man and one of the women were once married, but cannot get along. The influence of the second woman makes the whole thing work.
But in the end, the second woman changes her mind and leave, resulting in the other two fighting again and not being able to live together. Funny how sometimes you need that third element to create balance.
Lindsey, try Cat Grant.
OK, I'm outta the crowsnest. I also live in California, born here, lived here all me life. Not far from Sodom and Gomorah, aka San Francisco. I've read books on the subject, because it interests me and because I want ta write it realistically.
It can work. I've seen it work. It be like a boat, everyone works tagether.
I recently read another I liked that addressed the HEA... Dinah's Delight? Man, me memory be totally fried...
I gots ta admit...it be hilarious that it be easier ta suspend belief and read about werewolves, vampires, zombies, shifters, mermaids...but more than two people making it work...that be too much?
Chance - I was thinking that EXACT same thing earlier. It's our skepticism. We are so jaded about love and relationships, that a man shifting into a werewolf is considered more plausible than a man being loving and faithful. LOL!
Sad commentary right there.
Ter and Sin - I think that the idea of making the two men partners has merit, I think it could work if done the right way and still make it emotionally satisfying, depending on the guys (as far as HEA goes, I mean). Like if one guy is the rolling stone type and the other is steady and solid. Ya know? At the end the two left behind could still have each other then and the rolling stone could just visit when the wind blows the right way. (Just an example of course).
And I do think it's possible to be in love with two people at once as well.
Cybercliper - of course we don't mind the reader perspective! We're all readers too! :) Happy to have your input.
And I agree with you. I need my emotional fulfillment. Part of the reason I read romance is because I know everyone's going to be happy at the end. Otherwise, I'd stick with the literary stuff I used to have to read in my English major days in college. Lots of unfulfilled people in all that.
Chance - Huh, an alpha who's secure with both sides of his sexuality? I think JR Ward's alphas tend that way, at least a lot of them. I hadn't read it before that. But I could see how maybe that'd work. And the alpha female unwilling to give them up? That's interesting too.
Hmmm... Much to think about....
And Chance girl, I was counting on you in my debate today. I WANTED to hear that side because I have really been wondering how this all works, from a romance perspective.
I do think that part of the reason I'm skeptical is that I fear polyamory relationships in books can come off the way that erotic visual material does: kinda hokey for the most part, not at all emotional, and geared towards the slot A/tab B stuff.
What it sounds like so far is that the tides in this realm have been turning a little, towards a more emotionally satisfying outcome in this genre, which in turn makes me more interested in checking it out.
Lindsey - ditto! I am a skim the sex scenes if they don't move the emotional plot sort. So if the entire story focused more on the sexual relationship and not on the emotional one, I fear I'd be flipping. A lot. :)
Chance says: "I gots ta admit…it be hilarious that it be easier ta suspend belief and read about werewolves, vampires, zombies, shifters, mermaids…but more than two people making it work…that be too much?"
LOL!! Chance it is. But I think it's because everyone knows that weres and vamps are complete and utter fiction. No one has ever seen it for real. But I know people who swing or people who've been involved in threeways or more. It's not as fictional as howling at the moon.
Well, glad to fan the fire a' discussion wit' me input. Really, the slot stuff is the easy stuff! It ain't about bein' a yoga superstar or defyin' gravity. That's jus' sex.
Wonderful, wonderful sex. But that jus' be sex.
I think it be about the respect and teamwork aspect. In many a' me books, long as there be pleasure and no one is hurt...there be no limits.
Emotionally, we all reads books where two people struggle ta connect. Think a' the third as the mediator...and that third changes. Sometimes it's A, sometimes it's B or C. And next time, someone else helps. I think shifting perspective is what turns reaction ta reflection. Opens discussions up from arguments ta talkin'.
In main stream romance, that third be often a best friend, a sister, a relative...
What drives me up the wall be the categorizin' of anythin' considered 'not normal' inta erotica. I do hope the winds be changin'...once a black man and white woman was considered tabboo, exotic, titillatin'. How long we 'ave ta wait fer polyamory ta be more than erotica?
Chance - you're right. I think erotica lends a certain connotation that could lead someone to view it negatively. But it definitely isn't fully mainstreamed yet, though maybe it's getting closer. And "shifting perspective is what turns reaction to reflection." Very very well said.
I do hope you know I'm not judging the idea of extra folks in a book, just curious as to how it works, what's new and how it's changing. Whether it would fit what I enjoy reading. Until now--or recent things I've heard about it--I don't think it would have. Sex for sex sakes hasn't really been what I've looked for in my romance. Though that's cool if it fits someone else. :) I do like that it sounds like there's more variety now, more emotional depth. That's probably the only way I'd consider lending the genre my readership. :)
I admit, it's a minefield out there. Because it's easy to make a buck out of treating polyamory situations as pure erotic fun. And it's not easy finding books that also address it as a reality of life, not just a gymnastics exercise.
Not that I really object to that sometimes.
If me passion fer the subject makes it sound like I'm sayin' anyone wit' a different viewpoint is a prude... I do apologize. Not that at all.
I tell ya, crew...I've opened up me readin' ta authors I would never 'ave taken the time fer because so many of ya 'ave recommended them. And found writers that I can really admire, even if I don't find their genre me cup a' tea.
There be a big difference between reaction and reflection, Marnee. When it stops bein' a competition, when it stops bein' about winnin' and losin'...ya find reflection.
Thanks for the rec, Chance. I'll definitely check CG out.
Also, there was just a Newsweek article on polyamorous relationships you all might find interesting: http://www.newsweek.com/id/209164
Thank you, Lindsey, that was an interesting article. I might look for it in paper so I can hang onto it... Maybe I'll go back and see if I can e-mail it ta meself... Hmmmm!
It is extremely rare for me to like menage story. 9 out of 10 times they are just not believable.
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