Dialog, Slang, and Euphemisms
So, using my trusty google, I set off to find out how people really talked in 1853 California. Turns out, they didn't talk all that different from us (or rather, from me. Having grown up in the backwoods of Missouri, turns out I talk a lot like old west cowboys).
General Custer, for example, is quoted as saying "Let's kick their ass and get the hell out of here." I believe my husband said the same thing just yesterday -- though he was referring to beating the visiting lacrosse team, not leading the infantry into battle.
Then there are less contemporary examples, such as a judge exclaiming, "We never did hang the wrong one but once or twice, and them fellers needed to be hung anyhow jes' on general principles."
Beyond their dialog, other things have to be considered. How did they curse? What kind of metaphors did they use? How did they refer to sex?
Some of their slang we still use today (or at least, I still hear my father use it, but again, there's that backwoods Missouri thing going on). Like "Don't get your back up" (get angry), or "Fetch me a hammer" (instead of 'get' me a hammer). "The jig is up" or "He's got himself in a heap of trouble."
Then there is some slang that is probably better off falling out of common usage. Like "make a mash," as in trying to impress someone -- i.e. "Buck's tryin' to make a mash on that new girl." Or "who hit John," as in liquor -- i.e. "He had a bit too much who-hit-John." Or how about "shove a queer," as in passing counterfeit money -- i.e. "He got caught tryin' to shove a queer on ole' Jack."
And then there are the insults, which of course, must include references to one's mother, as in "A rattlesnake would be ashamed to meet your mama." Others include "He was so ugly he had to sneak up on a dipper to get a drink of water." Or "If all his brains were dynamite, there wouldn't be enough to blow his nose."
But as much fun as it's been to dig through diaries and newspaper articles and websites, the question remains of how much you put into a novel. Phrases like, "He ain't tryin' to get your back up, ma'am" would get really old after the third page. In looking at currently published western romances, they seem to include only contemporary dialog.
So which do you prefer? Do you like your historical dialog to have a touch of flair from the times? Or do you prefer modern dialog against a historic backdrop? Where do you look for examples of historical dialog? Anyone have any good Old West slang or euphemisms they'd care to throw out?
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54 comments:
I gots ta admit, I likes a bit a' both. The thing ta 'member 'bout California back then is there were no real separate identity ta the state yet. The slang would a' been what came with the settlers. If'n the lure a' gold brought them, they brought their slang wit' 'em. Were the Spanish influence still present, I wonder...
I know when writing 'bout the Caribbean a' the late 1700's it's tricky ta not use bits from modern slang. 'Ceptin when I'm lookin' fer Miranda ta ferget where she is! (She gets looked at wit' a crooked eye now and ag'in.)
Fer Western slang, I 'magin the best place ta look is where yer lookin', in the diaries. I put me brain on it and see if'n I can 'member anyt'ing that might be useful!
I hate language anachronisms in historical reads. I don't generally read westerns, though and I get the impression the language would be very different. I stick to to England and Europe. I think most people use a modern twist to the dialogue, because some of the things they would have said 'back then' are a bit hard to understand.
No old western euphemisms over here. I read a lot of Victorian erotic though, so I use a lot of that terminology. Mind you, I try to avoid the use of bubbies... ;) That one isn't a pretty one.
That's "They're out there..."
Dang it. To think I could have slept in. Gah!
Well, school is on a 2 hr delay and my dentist appt just got cancelled so I'm here earlier than I thought I'd be. And can I just say, I love this topic.
I haven't read a Western in a coon's age (how's that?), but I'd be really happy to see them make a major comeback. Not that they ever really went anywhere. There out there if you want to find them. I just haven't gotten around to one for some reason.
I prefer the characters speak the way they would have in the time period in which the book is set. But you have to remember, especially in the old west, there were many different levels of education so someone who traveled west from say Boston would speak differently from a cow hand who has only ever lived in Wyoming. So you can do a bit of the more formal english with the slang of the day.
It would make me crazy to only read contemporary speak in an historical no matter when it takes place. I'd likely just put it down if that's what I found.
Great topic Hal, as you and I have been wrestling with this all weekend. LOL!!
In historicals, I think I like a time period tone but too much dialog, where I have to sound it out phonetically, can be tiresome and slow down my reading experience.
Like I said before, I haven't read a lot of westerns so I'm not sure I'm the best to help or that I know enough to give good advice. :) I was looking on Harlequin's website to see if they had excerpts to go off of.
Came 19 miles, milked cow. LMAO!
I think that Ter's comment about different education levels and expressing a character's education level through language is a good one. Especially for the hero and heroine I'd want them to be smart, even if they aren't highly-educated.
I haven't the slightest what that means for their language in a western, but I think it's a good idea. LOL!
Hey Chance - you have no problem working the dialect in! It is tricky to figure out how they talked then, isn't it? I've been looking at diaries, but the ones I've been reading are day-by-day accounts of the trip out west, so no one really had time to write out long passages - lol. It's mostly thing like "Came 19 miles, milked cow" lol.
Awesome topic Hal!
Like 2nd, I like it both ways. I do like the language to be accurate depending on the type of book I'm reading (historical, western, contemp), but if they slip a little I don't really mind.
To me - dialogue is gold for authors. There is nothing that gives you a sense of time and place or defines characters quicker or more accurately than correct language usage. As Terri said - slang as opposed to proper word usage speaks volumes.
I'm also fascinated by the curse words characters use and don't use. You can tell a villain from a good hearted bad boy by just using a different word for the same thing. And getting a self respecting, righteous, god fearing hero/heroine to finally swear can drive the intensity of a scene or emotion home quicker than all the verbage out there.
Tiff - bubbies? This has me curious! I've been looking for old west references to sex, and having a terrible time finding any. I'll bet there's tons of hilarious ones for the Victorian era!
I found a great quiz, to test one's knowledge of Regency dialog/slang. I'd bet you could pass easy!
http://www.funtrivia.com/playquiz/quiz55375659a10.html
Ter - coon's age! I've heard my dad use that one :) Did you guys get a lot of snow? We have a snow day, and the puppy is lovin it! lol.
You're right - there were huge differences in education. If I read newspaper articles from the East, they read just like they would today. So I think someone educated might talk in a bit of a different cadence, and a bit more formal than you or I, but understandable, if that makes any sense.
I've been looking at recently published western romances (you're right, there's not that many out there right now!), and the dialog (and narration) were so current I kept forgetting it was a western until they climbed into their buggy!
Oh, and Hal, I love westerns and wish there were more good ones out there. I'm happy to hear that's the genre you're going with!
Have you read a lot of Westerns? Maybe they have the references you're looking for.
Marn - I knew you'd know where this topic is coming from! Thanks for looking up references for me! I totally agree there's a line. I don't want to have to sit and stare at dialog to sort out what they're saying and what they mean.
And I think you're right about sounding smart - no one wants their hero to be a dumb hick, even if dumb hicks were more common back then! lol.
I've been finding myself watching Little House on the Prairie recently....I used to love that show! but the dialog, at least to me, seems authentic.
Irish - I agree, dialog can lend so much to the story without having to "tell" anything. I've been looking for romantic westerns, and not finding much. I'm certainly not finding a lot of dark, sexy westerns (which is what I'm headed for). Harlequin category does Westerns, and had one come out this month, so I may try to brave the snow and swing through Walmart to check it out.
Have you read Lorraine Heath's Texas Trilogy? The best out there, IMHO -
Texas Destiny
Texas Glory
Texas Splendor
Lavyrle Spencer has a couple of Westerns too! I gotta fly but I'll look at what I've got and try to comment again later on today.
Diana Palmer writes western historicals. You can browse one on Harlequin's website. There are a few others you can browse through too, in case you're interested.
Irish and Marn - thanks for the recommendations! I'll check both of those out! I'm definitely going to need to be reading way more if I'm going to tackle writing a western.
Wow. Did anyone else think, "Wow, 'shove a queer' would have an entirely different meaning nowadays. Well, at least in backwoods Missouri." I don't live at the hub of culture or...civilized behavior. Unfortunately.
Hmmm. Colloquial language in books. I do like "fussier" language in say my regencies or books set in the 1830s. You know, where they used about 10 words for ever 1; and where you're looking up every third word. The Austen language, as it were. I like my dialogue ironic. Like Oscar Wilde dialogue--if you can write like Oscar Wilde, you're doing good. I'd prefer my historicals didn't have current urban words sprinkled within, like: "stanky leg" or "MILF"
I do agree it can get a little old. Sometimes I prefer my hero/heroine speak "neutrally"--not modern but not so burdened by historic dialect-speak, I could care less what they're saying by the third sentence. HOWEVER, I do enjoy secondary characters who sound colorful. Using the modern slang of the era. Betting a pony or a monkey or whatever.
Not a total snow day, just a 2 hr delay. But my car has a covering of snow and ice and the door was frozen shut this morning. I went out before I got the call that the dental appt was cancelled.
I'll back up the Lorraine Heath rec. Those books are awesome. My mom has been reading Bobbi Smith. We met her at the RT signing last year and I'd say she's probably doing the best full-lenth Westerns out there today. Also, check the library or Alibris for some older Elizabeth Lowells. The "You" series is wonderful. Only You, Only Mine, Only His, and Only Love. They were all reissued in 2003 so you should be able to find them.
If you want to go way back, search for the old Dorothy Garlocks. There must be more than 20 of them. They focus around the frontier days and cover a wide range of years and territory.
Why did I call those the "You" series? I haven't even had any rum yet. That would be the "Only" series.
I'm really considering going back to bed....
I think one of my favorite Westerns was by Geralyn Dawson: The Wedding Raffle. The heroine raffles off a dead horse. It's hysterical.
Hellion - that was my exact reaction to "shove a queer"! I couldn't believe it when I read it! VERY different connotation today.
Marnee and I were talking about exactly your idea - to have secondary characters use more slang and flair of the day, but keep the h/h speaking neutrally enough that it's still readable.
Can you imagine a regency hero remarking on a MILF? LAMO!
Ter - Marn and I looked through a Bobbi Smith western this weekend, but I'm not sure it was the style I'm going for. I'll definitely look for the Elizabeth Lowell series - sounds great!
Sorry you didn't get the whole day off, and be careful in the snow!
Hells - that book sounds awesome - will definitely check it out!
Hal - that was her name. I couldn't remember her name this morning. LOL!
I haven't actually read the Smith books and my mom is not that discerning, but she seems to like them and that's all I know about them. That and she's the Western author I hear the most about.
I know I have lots of old Westerns so if you're coming down for the meeting this weekend, I'll pack some up to bring for your research.
Ter - I haven't read them either. Marn and I just flipped through one yesterday.
I'm not sure if I'll make it this weekend or not - Rob has a lacrosse game in Jersey Sunday, so it'll kind of depend on if he wants me to go with him. I don't have the energy to make two major drives in one weekend *g* I'll let you know later in the week, though!
No problem. I've done so much driving in the last several years I now avoid going around the corner to the story unless it's life or death. LOL!
Sorry I'm late.
I prefer modern dialog since I tend to cuss a lot and my heroines tend to have the same filthy mouth I do and my heroes do too. I find myself using a lot of country slang (knee high to a grasshopper, pissin' in the wind, piss ant- you know those sorts of things) and referring to a lot of country stuff (like lezpedeza, purple budded clover, out in the holler or woods).
Terrio - I gots to finds me some Bobbi Smith books. I'm taking her advanced writer class in Orlando and like ta read an author fore I meet her...
Hal, you might take a look at the standard, Louis Lamour. They are short and there are a million of them. I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, he was a stickler for authenticity...
I like your slang, Sin! I remember my dad using one... "So mad I could stand on my head and spit nickels."
Chance - that's a good idea to check out L'amour. I'd only been looking at romances set in the west - I didn't even think of looking at straight westerns. Good idea!
Sin - you're who I need to check with on western slang - I love the metaphors you can pull out! And I've been having a terrible time not using curse words. Apparently the f-bomb didn't become popular outside of sexual references until about 20 years after my setting. *sigh*. Gotta find new curse words....
I would say you could watch episodes of Deadwood, the HBO series, but I'm pretty sure they dropped the F-bomb about every other word. LOL! So maybe that's not the right thing to check out.
I say spend a night watching old John Wayne westerns and take notes. No one would argue John Wayne characters weren't heroes. So I'd say that's a good place to start.
Chance, I say, "I'm so mad I could spit nails into metal." But I've not heard, "So mad I could stnad on my head and spit nickels." LMFAO. What an image!
Hal, this is why I try to stay in contemp time. I like to drop the f-bomb every other word. I really like to use, "Shootin' the shit," but I don't think many people use it in the city. LOL
Now we could get into what all these sayings mean. Like shit eatin' grin. Who the heck is grinning if they're eating shit?
I hadn't heard that standing on your head one either. I think I've used the "so mad I could spit" but didn't know the part that came before. LOL!
Ter - I've been watching Deadwood (the hubs loves that show). And while I've heard their cursing is a bit off time-wise, just about everything else is right on. Also, there's a lot of prostitutes on Deadwood, which is good for me, as my heroine is a prostitute of sorts.
Sin - this is my first foray into historicals, and I'm not sure if I can keep it up for a whole novel or not. It's very different than writing contemp - I find myself using way more words and kind of a more lyrical styles - very odd for me!
And "shoot the shit" isn't a common phrase? Who knew? But then again, I say all sorts of things that people over here on the East Coast look at me cross-eyed for. Just the hick accent alone is enough to get looks. I can usually hide the accent, but if I talk to someone with an accent, mine comes out full force. And you know, while writing this western, I found my accent showing up much more. How weird is that? lol
I like the dialog in my historicals to ring as true to the times as possible. That is not to say that I need the accents of the times. For example, 'Cor, gov'ner' gets on my nerves after a while but I am all in alt when a hero is deep in his cups following a night with the milk and water misses of the ton.
Modern dialog in a historical can, at times, hit my ear in a funny way. If the story is strong enough then I don't notice it so much.
As an avid historical reader I did find it hard to write contemporary dialog in some parts of the first manuscript I wrote. That didn't last long because it hit my ear funny in the writing of a story.
Gov'ner - yeah, that could get old after a while! but I agree it's fun to use phrases like "in his cups" instead of drunk ;)
This is the problem I've been having with dialog - making it sound right to my hear, while still giving it a historical flair. Probably I just need more practice!
I'm sure that's it. Watch lots of Westerns so you get used to hearing it. Then when you read it aloud, you'll recognize what is right. Plus, I'd think once you really get to know your characters, you'll know exactly what they would say and how they'd say it. I say just let it flow and it'll all come round in the end.
Good idea Ter - and I think you're right. A lot of it will come together, or can be handled in the revisions. No point in adding extra stress at this stage!
I think you're right about it coming around in revision. You might want to just write what's comfortable now and then make it a point to read specifically for that as one revision.
And I think watching westerns is a good idea too! I'll even offer to watch Tombstone again for you. Just cause I'm a supportive CP and all that. (I mean, the guys in that are hunky but that's strictly a collateral side effect and in no way influences my choice to assist you.)
Oh I would never think you had an ulterior motive like the hunky guys! LOL!
Absolutely not. Strictly research oriented.
You should watch Unforgiven. Less hunk, but still a great movie for dialogue. Guys in Westerns say even less than your strong, silent type.
The best way to test any dialogue is to read it out loud. You catch so much more than just reading it silently. Actually, it works for the parts between the dialogue too. :)
I think there is an exceedingly fine line between language that sounds authentic and language that calls attention to itself in such a way that the reader is pulled out of the story. It's an issue I deal with working with regional speech. Southern speech is still distinctive, and I want to show that it is. But too many dropped g's or down-home sayings, and my story becomes parody.
Cameron Judd is another good Western writer to study. In Boone, for example, he uses these lines:
“They ain’t going to fight us, I don’t believe,” he was saying. “I’m hearing rumors that the Indians have run off and maybe killed the Frenchies their selves!”
“I don’t put much reliance on rumors,” Daniel replied.
The grammar and syntax along with "Frenchies" to establish character. There's no need for language the reader may find opaque. And the thing about using L'Amour and Judd to study craft is that you can find copies of their books in any library, something that is not always possible with romance writers unfortunately.
Yeah, the spitting nickels was a great joke of Dad's. He actually fooled his grandaughter once by leaning over, putting his head against a wall and then tossing out some nickels he'd hidden in his hand... She bought it for years! I'm sure it's one her favorite memories.
Another one me sis (who is a lurker) reminded me of was "fine as frog's hair" ...
I think just touching on bits of slang sets the mood and stage. And staying away from obvious modern bits. And politeness or a deliberate turn from it goes a long way toward authenticity. Let's face it, we live in a very casual polite society.
As in seldom polite...
Where the past seems to either to court it with great deliberation or not, depending on the character. Seems ta me, in the west, the villains were deleberately rude and the heros were very careful to be polite...in some fashion or another...
Wish I'd been able to see Deadwood. I like Ian McShane. One a' those I'll have to rent one of these days.
Oh! BTW, I got to see Igor on pay-per-view. That was brilliant! I will have to add it to my DVD collection!
Chance - I knew you'd love Igor! LOL!
Great point about politeness. There's an unwritten rule that all English historical heroes must be gentlemen and the means they must be honorable. The west still have these traits. (We don't have them so much today...dang it.) The Western hero, even when he's a gambler and a rake, still has a code of ethics and honor. Kind of Rhett Butler planted in Dodge City.
Make that crunch goodness, LOL!
Our modern society really has a road block about politeness. I know it can be overdone and used to create distance, but geez! A polite nature is just a blessing!
Though I have been known to be polite to the point of invisibility! (I be workin' on that!)
That rabbit on Igor was just hilarious. I know I missed all sorts of things and so will need the DVD to discover all the crunch goodness. Cap'n? I watched Talledega Nights last night on tv... OK, I can find the charm there...but it ain't easy!
I still want to know where you get all that movie dialogue, Cap'n...
Ter - reading aloud is so helpful! And somehow, I always forget to do that! LOL. But you're totally right - once you're used to hearing something (like dialog of any time period) you catch it if it's off when you read aloud.
Janga - great example! I love how the rhythm gives it the flair, rather than having to drop every 'g and refer to people as 'yeller' - lol! Thanks for another name - I'll check him out!
I get the movie dialogue from IMDB.com. You can search a movie, then look for the quotes from it.
Hell -that's brilliant. I've just gotten into Westerns in the past two years or so. I love Jodi Thomas' books. The dialog sounds true to me. Not too stereotypical but true to my ear, at least. The same is true for Heather Graham's Westerns. I just reread Mary Jo Putney's 'Mad, Bad and Dangerous To Know' is a great mixture of Western and English dialog. The hero is a second son making his mark in the West.
I think TNT or AMC have been showing all of Clint Eastwood's Spaghetti Westerns.
Ohh, more good books to check out! Thanks Santa! I'll definitely have to find myself some Clint Eastwood *g*
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