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Sunday, February 3, 2008
A Piratical Debate – Why we will never have Universal Funny
Many conversations take place behind the scenes here on the Romance Writer's Revenge. One of those exchanges led to today's debate. Why sometimes funny is not funny to all.
Captain Hellion's opening statement:
It is said that writing tragedy is easy, but writing comedy is hard. Why is that? Why is it easy for us to agree that death of a loved one or puppies murdered for their fur or [SPOILER ALERT!] Will Turner being cursed as the Flying Dutchman's captain and only seeing Elizabeth once every ten years are all tragic, but humor, that which gets us through all the heartbreak, is subjective?
Boatswain Terrio's opening statement:
I think the reason tragedy is universal is because it hits the heart. A fickle, soft organ that most everyone owns but no one controls. Though it recovers it is completely susceptible to the slightest tale of sadness, loss or pain. Humor, however, aims for the funny bone. A much tougher nut to crack. The funny bone is not fickle but rather choosy and might I say persnickety. Which is why humor is subjective.
Captain Hellion:
Last summer, I went to Virginia and met my virtual-friend Terri. Though we hailed from different backgrounds and different childhoods, we were alike in a lot of ways. Hell, we even photographed the same: unhappy with the outcome, but faintly sunburned from all the fun we were having. Now Terri and I laugh at a lot of the same things, except I adore Will Ferrell and she has absolutely no taste where he is concerned. Now it's easy to love Jon Stewart and that Colbert guy—the brainy, sarcastic grown-up geek who has filled out from his pasty-white, lanky-thin days and has proved once and for all to his high school graduating class that: Sure you may have stuffed me in a locker repeatedly, but who's laughing now?
Boatswain Terrio:
Ah, last year's vacation. Good times. Good times. And speaking of pictures, have you gotten yours developed yet? Hmmmm? And I have to say I am a real person - not just virtual. LOL! Though I bet if I were virtual I would weigh virtually nothing. Yes, lets say I'm virtual. Now, I must argue that it is not a matter of having no taste but rather Will Ferrell not being to my taste. I never even realized that I had never seen a Will Ferrell movie until we started talking about it. It wasn't a conscious avoidance. More the result of me avoiding things I don't find funny. I do like Jon Stewart because his humor is laced with a touch of truth and intelligence. For me there is a fine line between being silly and being stupid. In most cases, for me, Ferrell obliterates that line.
Captain Hellion:
The difference between a comedian like Will Ferrell and one like Jon Stewart is like the difference between going on a date with Adam Sandler verses a date with Dennis Miller. With Adam, he'd make you feel okay about spilling spaghetti down your blouse by offering to suck the spaghetti strands out of your cleavage with his straw. Dennis would probably offer you the history of pasta that would amuse you, but then remind you that hey, the Romans had a democracy—and they were also Republican. While you would be laughing your ass off at Adam's antics, wondering who the hell sucks spaghetti though a straw; with Dennis you'd point out just like the Romans, American Republicans are also equally corrupt and prone to stabbing each other in the back. Et tu, McCain?
Boatswain Terrio:
Again I must argue. I would never go on a date with Dennis Miller. Have you seen the man's hands? Way too small. And he may not cross the line into stupid but he's more condescending and pretentious than I could possibly bear. This is about the humor, not the men.
Captain Hellion:
The problem with being the guy who was stuffed in the locker all the time is that even your humor is serious. You spend a lot of your time mocking and satirizing the world around you, which admittedly is funny (if you can't laugh at yourself, who can you laugh at?), but there's
an edge to it. It's not laughing for laughter's sake. It's not as carefree; it's not as childlike. And if there's one thing Will Ferrell is: he's a great big child.
Boatswain Terrio:
Hence the problem for me. I'm not interested in laughing for laughter's sake or watching anything childish. And I do use that word opposed to childlike since I think it fits Mr. Ferrell much better. Maybe my problem is that I don't find the ridiculous funny. I want there to be a point to the joke. I want it to be funny because it's true. I prefer irony or a twist of words.
Captain Hellion:
And then you have: Talladega Nights: The Ballad of Ricky Bobby. Not a serious moment to be found, and certainly no hidden moral agenda. Just stupid catchphrases and tasteless sequences that leave you laughing, appalled, in your chair. Even Will's commercially serious comedy:
Stranger Than Fiction, was more sweet and funny, in the manner of Elf, than painfully pretentious. Maybe it's the short blonde curls and the wide innocent expression Will does so well. After all, he would embrace any obnoxious role on Saturday Night Live and do it so deadpan, he'd keep in character even while every other skit-mate was falling apart around him. Why do I love Will Ferrell? His ability to deliver lines like: "Dear tiny, infant Jesus, lying in his tiny golden fleece…" and "Smiling's my favorite" and "I work for the IRS, everyone hates me" with equal deadpan sincerity. Will is sincere, and he's sincerely funny. That's all.
Boatswain Terrio:
Ah, THAT movie. That is the worst to me. And yes, I'm a NASCAR fan and that might cloud my judgment but it's precisely lines like those I do not find amusing. The ability to deadpan only works for me if the punch line is actually funny. To be fair, I don't like Ben Stiller movies either or much of the humor Owen Wilson does. At least when he does movies with Stiller.
The bottom line here is not whether Will Ferrell is funny. It's that what IS funny is not universal. Which means how do you know if what you've written is funny? Many books, no matter how serious, have some sort of comic relief. But what if what we write as relief is not funny to the reader? We can be sure that when we break our heroine's heart, our readers will feel the pain. When our hero cries, our reader's will cry. But will they laugh when our hero steps on our heroine's foot sending her into curses and name calling? Or when our heroine's father walks in to catch his daughter in a most *compromising* position?
I put the question to you. What do you find funny? Do you prefer Will Ferrell or Jon Stewart? Is it high brow stuff for you or maybe slapstick and the ridiculous? Or do you prefer no humor at all in your books? If that's the case, then I apologize for the drivel of today's blog. *g*
Captain Hellion's opening statement:
It is said that writing tragedy is easy, but writing comedy is hard. Why is that? Why is it easy for us to agree that death of a loved one or puppies murdered for their fur or [SPOILER ALERT!] Will Turner being cursed as the Flying Dutchman's captain and only seeing Elizabeth once every ten years are all tragic, but humor, that which gets us through all the heartbreak, is subjective?
Boatswain Terrio's opening statement:
I think the reason tragedy is universal is because it hits the heart. A fickle, soft organ that most everyone owns but no one controls. Though it recovers it is completely susceptible to the slightest tale of sadness, loss or pain. Humor, however, aims for the funny bone. A much tougher nut to crack. The funny bone is not fickle but rather choosy and might I say persnickety. Which is why humor is subjective.
Captain Hellion:
Last summer, I went to Virginia and met my virtual-friend Terri. Though we hailed from different backgrounds and different childhoods, we were alike in a lot of ways. Hell, we even photographed the same: unhappy with the outcome, but faintly sunburned from all the fun we were having. Now Terri and I laugh at a lot of the same things, except I adore Will Ferrell and she has absolutely no taste where he is concerned. Now it's easy to love Jon Stewart and that Colbert guy—the brainy, sarcastic grown-up geek who has filled out from his pasty-white, lanky-thin days and has proved once and for all to his high school graduating class that: Sure you may have stuffed me in a locker repeatedly, but who's laughing now?
Boatswain Terrio:
Ah, last year's vacation. Good times. Good times. And speaking of pictures, have you gotten yours developed yet? Hmmmm? And I have to say I am a real person - not just virtual. LOL! Though I bet if I were virtual I would weigh virtually nothing. Yes, lets say I'm virtual. Now, I must argue that it is not a matter of having no taste but rather Will Ferrell not being to my taste. I never even realized that I had never seen a Will Ferrell movie until we started talking about it. It wasn't a conscious avoidance. More the result of me avoiding things I don't find funny. I do like Jon Stewart because his humor is laced with a touch of truth and intelligence. For me there is a fine line between being silly and being stupid. In most cases, for me, Ferrell obliterates that line.
Captain Hellion:
The difference between a comedian like Will Ferrell and one like Jon Stewart is like the difference between going on a date with Adam Sandler verses a date with Dennis Miller. With Adam, he'd make you feel okay about spilling spaghetti down your blouse by offering to suck the spaghetti strands out of your cleavage with his straw. Dennis would probably offer you the history of pasta that would amuse you, but then remind you that hey, the Romans had a democracy—and they were also Republican. While you would be laughing your ass off at Adam's antics, wondering who the hell sucks spaghetti though a straw; with Dennis you'd point out just like the Romans, American Republicans are also equally corrupt and prone to stabbing each other in the back. Et tu, McCain?
Boatswain Terrio:
Again I must argue. I would never go on a date with Dennis Miller. Have you seen the man's hands? Way too small. And he may not cross the line into stupid but he's more condescending and pretentious than I could possibly bear. This is about the humor, not the men.
Captain Hellion:
The problem with being the guy who was stuffed in the locker all the time is that even your humor is serious. You spend a lot of your time mocking and satirizing the world around you, which admittedly is funny (if you can't laugh at yourself, who can you laugh at?), but there's
an edge to it. It's not laughing for laughter's sake. It's not as carefree; it's not as childlike. And if there's one thing Will Ferrell is: he's a great big child.
Boatswain Terrio:
Hence the problem for me. I'm not interested in laughing for laughter's sake or watching anything childish. And I do use that word opposed to childlike since I think it fits Mr. Ferrell much better. Maybe my problem is that I don't find the ridiculous funny. I want there to be a point to the joke. I want it to be funny because it's true. I prefer irony or a twist of words.
Captain Hellion:
And then you have: Talladega Nights: The Ballad of Ricky Bobby. Not a serious moment to be found, and certainly no hidden moral agenda. Just stupid catchphrases and tasteless sequences that leave you laughing, appalled, in your chair. Even Will's commercially serious comedy:
Stranger Than Fiction, was more sweet and funny, in the manner of Elf, than painfully pretentious. Maybe it's the short blonde curls and the wide innocent expression Will does so well. After all, he would embrace any obnoxious role on Saturday Night Live and do it so deadpan, he'd keep in character even while every other skit-mate was falling apart around him. Why do I love Will Ferrell? His ability to deliver lines like: "Dear tiny, infant Jesus, lying in his tiny golden fleece…" and "Smiling's my favorite" and "I work for the IRS, everyone hates me" with equal deadpan sincerity. Will is sincere, and he's sincerely funny. That's all.
Boatswain Terrio:
Ah, THAT movie. That is the worst to me. And yes, I'm a NASCAR fan and that might cloud my judgment but it's precisely lines like those I do not find amusing. The ability to deadpan only works for me if the punch line is actually funny. To be fair, I don't like Ben Stiller movies either or much of the humor Owen Wilson does. At least when he does movies with Stiller.
The bottom line here is not whether Will Ferrell is funny. It's that what IS funny is not universal. Which means how do you know if what you've written is funny? Many books, no matter how serious, have some sort of comic relief. But what if what we write as relief is not funny to the reader? We can be sure that when we break our heroine's heart, our readers will feel the pain. When our hero cries, our reader's will cry. But will they laugh when our hero steps on our heroine's foot sending her into curses and name calling? Or when our heroine's father walks in to catch his daughter in a most *compromising* position?
I put the question to you. What do you find funny? Do you prefer Will Ferrell or Jon Stewart? Is it high brow stuff for you or maybe slapstick and the ridiculous? Or do you prefer no humor at all in your books? If that's the case, then I apologize for the drivel of today's blog. *g*
Labels:
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Down with Ferrell,
what's funny
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47 comments:
Has Ben Stiller ever made a funny movie?
His humor is beyond me.
However, Will Ferrell is as funny as you can get. I might have a sense of humor like a fifteen year old boy, but how can you not laugh when he was pouring syrup and M&M's on his spegetti in Elf? Or when he's standing at the bus stop in Stranger than Fiction, yelling at the sky to shut up? Or in Talledaga Nights at the Grace scene.
The point is that Will Ferrell takes his characters seriously, and he sells it. And that's what you've gotta do in your story. You've gotta sell the story point. No matter if it's a tragedy or a comedy or a mystery or just a bunch of raunchy sex. *grin*
"It's only the best movie ever. It won the Oscar. For best movie ever made." Talledega Nights- Will Ferrell to Sasha Cohen talking about Highlander... *LMAO*
PS. Very funny blog today wenches. Loved it!
Sin - Yes, Will commits. I'll give you that. He never does a character half way.
And I have to put up a disclaimer. I wrote my part of this while watching Miss Austen Regrets. I'm afraid hearing the Regency speak might have seeped in. LOL! It'll wear off by tomorrow.
I just don't do funny. I'm too serious to be really funny.
I don't know who those two are...lol.
But you two are funny! And the blog was fun!
Not a huge fan of either Ferrell or Stewart, but if I *had* to choose, it would be Ferrell, but NOT for TN. That was possibly one of the worst movies ever made.
I did, however, really enjoy Stranger Than Fiction. He did a great job as the poor frustrated guy who just couldn't figure out where the voice in his head was coming from.
I have a very odd sense of humor. I can appreciate very dry, British humor like you find in Waiting For God, and I love, love, love Fawlty Towers and Mr. Bean.
At the same time, I love the humor of writers like Connie Brockway. There's a scene in her newest release, Skinny-Dipping, where a family decides to have a "Viking" send-off for the family matriarch (in effigy) on a pontoon boat. OMG, I almost pee'd my pants that scene had me laughing so hard.
I have whiplash from reading your post. Or possibly you brought out the cat o nine tails.
While I am otherwise a woman of excessive virtue and sensibility, possibly even verging onto Austen heroine territory (oh, it's obvious I've been watching too many of those damned PBS adaptations), my favorite movie is Animal House. I have revealed that before, and will do so again a future blog post that is all written up and just waiting for its debut on MRMR.It is vulgar, sophomoric and misogynistic. Animal House, not MRMR. I like it anyway.
Humor is indeed a subjective thing. I find Adam Sandler whiny, can't get past Dennis Miller's snark and politics, Will Ferrell is silly but amusing---but I do wish he'd keep his clothes on.
Sin, I love Zoolander. Have you seen it? Ben Stiller doesn't have much range, but that's probably why he's successful. You know what you're getting.
Jeez, look at the time. This is almost as long as your post!
I do have Stranger Than Fiction in my Netflix queue and Maggie, I am a lover of Animal House as well. But a lot of that movie is smart funny and that's why.
I am not as much of a tight ass as I come off here. I love the comedy of Rodney Carrington. If you don't know who that is, he may just be the raunchiest comic since early Murphy but he's freaking hysterical. I can't watch him or listen to his CDs without crying.
Ok, I'm going to play the moderate here. I don't LOVE Will Ferrell, but I liked Stranger than Fiction, didn't mind Anchorman (mostly because of Christina Applegate) and I love his Jeopardy skits from SNL. I hated Talledaga Nights, I hated Old School.
I like Stephen Colbert, but only think Dennis Miller is so so funny. Jon Stewart is ok too, but not in love with him either.
However, I find you two hysterical.
Actually I love several of Ben Stiller's movies. Meet the Parents, Starsky & Hutch...okay, I like two. I think there are a couple more I like though. He's so intense--and serious as he does the craziest shit.
And I'm sorry you don't like Talladega Nights--people say it's stereotyping, but frankly I think it's calling it like it is. People are more rednecky than they like to admit, that's all--doesn't mean you're not a redneck. Deny if you will...but you are, even if you're not as intense about it, as say some of your relatives are.
And I can't believe you don't like Will Ferrell but you'll laugh at fart jokes. WTH? What's the difference?
And no, I haven't developed the film yet. Check back next year.
Cinthia--have you see the British flick "Keeping Mum"? OMG, that was laugh out loud funny! I love British humor too...but they can be a bit...well, stupid. Monty Python anyone?
Rodney Carrington makes me gag. I hate his jokes. *LOL*
I do love early Murphy though. "I want some ice cream, I want some ice cream" *doing dance* "And you can't have none, no you can't have none, because your father's an alcoholic...and you're on welfare... you cannot have some, you cannot have some..."
OH! Meet the parents is that the falkners????? I love that movie..with the peeing cat?
et tu, Tiff?
oui, j'aussi...
Meet the Fockers, and his name is Gay Focker. Yes. I think it's hilarious! Very over the top.
I'm not a fan of either Ben or Will but if I have to choose it would be Ben. Something about Mary was hilarious and so was Meet the Parents. I liked Will's humor more during his SNL days. I have to agree with Cinthia, TN was terrible...sorry Sin.
That's the problem. I don't go for "over-the-top". I don't want to be smacked upside the head with something that is so stupid you can't help but laugh. I want it to be a bit more subtle or surprising I guess.
And I did actually like Something About Mary and Adam Sandler movies often sucker me in but that's because he puts truth in there and not just stupidity. Who can resist The Wedding Singer?
I assure you, there's TRUTH in TN. Just more truth than you're willing to acknowledge.
I don't like Something About Mary. (I know, I'm like the ONLY one who doesn't.)
I can take or leave Adam Sandler, depending. Easily my favorite of his is: 50 First Dates. I think that one is the sweetest, walrus barfing and all. The Wedding Singer is my second favorite. The others are "okay" but not my favorite sources of humor.
Tiff, I had to look that up. I wish I knew French, what a beautiful language.
Even, "yes, me too" looks pretty.
I know there is lots of truth in TN:) I live in the redneck capital of the world, that's why I hated the movie. I deal with that mentality on a day to day basis, I guess that's why I don't find it amusing.
We don't want to start comparing rednecks. I've lived in a county in the backwoods of AR that didn't even have a traffic light IN THE ENTIRE COUNTY and have seen children the direct result of inbreeding.
And Fran has the pig-killer guy which trumps most. I have seen nothing of TN other than the commercials and that's more than enough for me to know it's not funny.
Now we have the same thing only with a stupid basketball player. Heaven help us, what sport will he drag out next?
I don't know, but I'm so looking forward to the basketball one! *LOL*
*snort* nuff said.
I also have to just say, even though Terri is poking fun at my manuscript with the "when the heroine's father walks in on them while in the middle of the ACT", that is totally something I could see happening in a Will Ferrell movie.
Just saying.
Which goes to prove my love for Will presents itself everywhere, from my writing to telling my boss I'm "jacked up on Mountain Dew. I'm going to go apeshit on your ass!"
I wasn't poking fun, I was trying to think of a funny encounter in each of our manuscripts. Getting walked in on in the middle of, well, you know, is extremely common. Not sure how funny people think getting your foot stepped on really is...
No, stepping on someone's foot isn't really funny.
Stepping on the back of the heroine's dress, ripping the skirt completely off as she walks out onto a stage infront of millions: PRICELESS.
HELLO!! My hero steps on my heroine! I wasn't making that up.
And it's damn funny scene. Bah!
*stalks off*
Get back here! *eye roll* He doesn't just *step on her foot*, he's like carrying a chair...or driving the car that hits her. Yours is funny because it *keeps* happening. It's like a pattern of calamity.
And if I remember the foot-stepping scene, isn't that when they're in the bar and he starts barking at her again? I wanted to throw a brick at him.
Yes, it's like the third time he's caused her pain (accidentally everytime) in less than 24 hours.
I suppose out of context it's not so funny. *sniff* Fine. I'll stay. *crosses arms in pout*
But I'm NOT watching any Will Ferrell movies.
Right, like you were in any danger of conceding to watching a Will Ferrell movie.
*eye roll*
And incidentally what I said is how to establish humor...making it a pattern! Gah. No one cares what I say.
OMG, you two are hilarious! And ITA about what is actually funny being very subjective.
I'm not a Will Ferrell fan (except for Elf)! The DH brought home The Anchorman for date night about 2 months ago and the night didn't have a happy ending! I'm not fond of Adam Sandler either, and every time I think about how much money he's worth it makes me sick to my stomach. But hey, that's the American public for ya! Ben Stiller... I can take or leave. Dennis Miller... I really like his early stuff and his rants crack me up. I do like Jon Stewart. Have never seen Stephen Colbert or Rodney Carrington (at first I thought you mistyped Rodney Dangerfield - am I getting old!? LOL). I LOVE Monty Python (own the collector's edition of The Holy Grail). Haven't really seen too much of Mr. Bean or Fawlty Towers. I think Animal House is hilarious.
I don't know what that all says, except we all have really different tastes. I know I read SEP and think some of the stuff she writes is LOL funny and I've read some bloggers post that they just don't get her.
I was just thinking... I don't know why I don't like Sandler or Ferrell, cause I use to be a huge fan of Chevy Chase and he did really stupid physical humor. I think they just rub me the wrong way for some reason.
Adam and Will can go either way; I love them, I do, but there are some days that they are really on their game. They're downright ingenuous.
Then other days you get "Kicking and Screaming" or "Happy Gilmore"--but there are fans of those two movies too.
Chevy Chase is about the same--sometimes his humor is spot on, and other times I'd rather poke my eye out.
I didn't think I'd like Wedding Crashers as much as I did, but I saw it on the right day, and I couldn't catch my breath I laughed non-stop. But anytime I've watched it thereafter, it's funny--but it's not the same as the first time I watched it. *LOL*
Chevy Chase I could take or leave but classic Bill Murray, it just doesn't get any better than that.
Irish - Carrington is not as well known and really raunchy but I literally cry I laugh so hard. I had to turn off the CD when I played it for my dad because we were afraid he would laugh himself into a heart attack. Seriously. LOL!
So a pattern of small events can make something funnier but there's also the chance of going overboard there too. I can take Mr. Bean for a matter of minutes but then it's too much. Slapstick is not really my thing anyway. Unless it's Abbott & Costello.
I love Chevy Chase. Fletch, hilarious.
I really like Lewis Black too. Anyone heard of him?
I LOVE Lewis Black. So funny. And the really funny part is that he's not like that off stage. Supposedly, he's a totally calm guy. LOL!
LOL! That's hilarious. I love how spastic he is on stage. Cracks me up.
Okay, I totally missed today. Sorry wenches :(
An author that I love, Janet Evanovich, does the slapstick humor. I enjoy it. It's funny. It's fluffy. It sometimes makes me snort in places that I shouldn't and people stare at me. But I'm not overly a fan of it.
Like I previously said, I have the humor of a little teenage pervert boy. I loved Animal House. I loved Wedding Crashers. I hated Anchorman. I loved Old School. I really loved Old School. And when Will Ferrell takes his clothes off, I might cringe before I start LMAO. Unfortunately, I didn't like 50 First Dates. But I loved Billy Madison and Happy Gilmore. Especially when Bob Barker kicks Adam Sandler's ass. I hated Little Nicky. Big Daddy was okay. Bill Murray is hilarious. Chevy Chase is 50/50.
And I didn't like There's Something About Mary. Dodgeball makes me cringe. The Focker movies make me fall asleep. And Zoolander gave me hives.
I know. I'm weird. It's okay.
Okay can I just give an honorable mention to Jack Black? If he is really the character he portrayed in The Holiday....I could marry him. A man with a sense of humor goes a long way with me:)
I did love him in that movie. Most of the time, he's even too crazy for me.
Sin - nice summation. LOL!
Lisa - everyone in The Holiday was great. I don't even like Diaz most of the time but I loved that movie enough to like her. And I even have a history with big boys but I still wouldn't go for Jack Black. Not that he would be upset about that.
Can't wait to get the Captain's take on Jack Black. LOL!
*whistles innocently*
Oh. freak. Hellion's gonna blow a gasket. Good thing Ms. Gleason will be here in the morning. Maybe Hellion will skip it for the sake of her sanity.
Crap you all need to make a list of things not to mention around the Cap'n...LOL
There's not enough room in this blog for that list. LOL!
Ah, she just had a dream and Mr. Black was the star. Jack, not Lewis. Her subconscious likes to torture her. That's all it is.
Ah I see!
I fell in love with JB after I saw School of Rock. He's freakin hysterical to me.
Jack Black gives me hives. Can't stand the man--it's those damned eyebrows and that chubby leprechaun build of his. (Plus his character in High Fidelity, I think--I hate it when men make rude gestures about 'tuning in Tokyo' and The Other--as if he could do either! Argh.)
But you're welcome to him, Lisa.
Personally if I'm going to go for a sense of humor: I'm going to shoot for Vince Vaughn, Owen Wilson, Will Ferrell. Hell, Ben Stiller is cuter.
And Sin, how can you not like 50 First Dates? I swear I'm like the *only* person who likes that movie. *sighs* I feel so alone. Here. With my nightmares of Jack Black.
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